Topic: Maneuver penalty help

[Keyron]

Hi!
Recently I started a campaign and I have a few questions about the maneuver penalty. I use the martial law's critical tables and one of my players is a monk that uses MA strike, he does almost no damage, but inflicts a lot of penalties; in the last combat an enemy ended with 30 damages and -80 penalty.

This is an extract from the core manual about the penalty:

Penalties – These are penalties on all Strength, Agility and Quickness Maneuvers (including OB). These penalties may reduce a character's DB, but only their Quickness bonus to their DB, not Defensive Bonuses received from other sources. These penalties cannot reduce a character's Quickness bonus below zero. These negative modifiers are the result of damage, shock, and pain of the wounds. If a character is stunned, combine the penalties from the stun with the penalties given separately. Once the Stun has worn off, its penalty (-50) is removed from those applied to all actions.

So, my questions are:
1- Penalty can reduce to 0 or less the OB?
2- In some errata or manual, there is a limit to the penalty someone can get? Like the quickness bonus?
3- The ability to cast is influenced by this penalty? None of the classes casts with St, Ag, Qu so casters are practically immune to this malus.

Thank you to everyone who will answer

[craig]

1- Penalty can reduce to 0 or less the OB?
2- In some errata or manual, there is a limit to the penalty someone can get? Like the quickness bonus?
3- The ability to cast is influenced by this penalty? None of the classes casts with St, Ag, Qu so casters are practically immune to this malus.

1. Penalties can reduce a St, Ag, or Qu based skill to below zero.   e.g. a character with a total OB of +50 with their sword and cumulative penalties of -80 would be reduced to an OB of -30.   i.e. they can still attack, by rolling and subtracting 30 and their opponent's DB.  With a good roll, they can still hurt their opponent.

2. Penalties can reduce DB by up to the Qu bonus component of the DB.  e.g. if a character has a Qu bonus of +5, then the Qu bonus to DB is Qu x 2 or +10.   If they are wearing Soft Leather (+20), that gives them a total DB of +30.   Maneuver penalties can remove a maximum of 10 (the Qu bonus) from the DB - e.g. if they had cumulative penalties of -80, their DB would be reduced by only 10.  All other St, Ag, Qu skills would be reduced by the full -80.

There is also a talent (Swashbuckler, or Agile Defense) which allows a character to add their Ag bonus x 2 to their DB as well as Qu x 2.  The HARP Errata & FAQ from 2004 said that DB maneuver penalties for Swashbuckler apply to the total of (Qu x 2 + Ag x 2), not to each of them separately.   So Soft Leather (20) + Qu x2 (10) + Ag x2 (10) could be reduced to, at worst, just the Soft Leather DB with no Qu or Ag bonus if the penalty was -20 or worse.

3. None of the spell-casting classes use St, Ag, or Qu for their spell-casting skills.  Only skills which use those stats are affected by maneuver penalties - i.e. most "physical" skills.  "mental" skills, including spell-casting aren't affected.   They are affected by Stun results, including the stunned maneuver penalty of -50.   BTW, most Concentration skills aren't affected either (only Chi Focus and Chi Strength are subject to maneuver penalties).

Spell-casters are still affected by penalties if they try to use a weapon (including to parry), run away, climb a tree, hide, ride a horse, etc.

There is, however, nothing stopping a GM from ruling that pain and blood loss also hinders concentration on a spell....but remember that casters tend to have lower DB and fewer hit points so are likely to a) die sooner/easier, and b) accumulate penalties at a much faster rate.  They also tend to have lower skill ranks/bonuses in Athletic, Combat, and other physical skills too.



BTW, with maneuver penalties of -80, a foe could easily be captured.  or murderised while almost-defenceless.  That's kind of a monk's job - to incapacitate foes for their more stabby companions to clean up afterwards.

[Zhaleskra]

I think the idea that "pure" casters on average have lower physical skills is a holdover from other games that force classes to have lower hit points and have otherwise arbitrary class-based restrictions. That said, I'm not sure if I crunched an arena HARP Combat show right. My friend's character had caused my Mage character a bleeding wound, and I played it as the spell still went off though by the rules--as a multi-round spell--it should have failed.

[craig]

I think the idea that "pure" casters on average have lower physical skills is a holdover from other games that force classes to have lower hit points and have otherwise arbitrary class-based restrictions.

HARP doesn't force class stereotypes like D&D does, but there are still solid game-mechanic factors that encourage particular character types into particular development paths.

And, IMO, one of the best things about HARP is that it is just a fairly gentle push rather than a rigidly-enforced rule.   That's also what I liked about RM when I played it in the 80s and 90s.

Spell-casters in HARP tend to have lower Combat, Athletic, etc skills because they're non-favoured categories and cost double.  Also, they have already have lots of skills (i.e. spells) to spend their points on.  In HARP, "opportunity costs" are significant - every DP you spend on one thing is a DP you can't spend on something else.

Same with Endurance - every DP you spend on hit points is a DP you're not spending on a spell.  Or PP dev.  Or Runes/Alchemy/Spell Lore/etc.  And once you get to 10 ranks, the incentive to buy more ranks drops from +5 to +2.   So, 5 or 10 ranks plus racial and stat bonuses makes sense for many spell-casters....and where a fighter type might drop any "spare" DPs they don't have an immediate use for into Endurance or a combat skill, a spell-caster usually gains more benefit from dropping them into PP dev or a spell.

As for Armor, there are obvious reasons why HARP spell-casters wear little or no armor, and invest very few points in the Armor skill.


Of course, casters could do the sensible thing and buy the Additional Profession talent to take a level or more of Rogue or whatever to concentrate on their Athletic, Combat, Outdoor, or Subterfuge skills (with the opportunity cost of a level or more of not improving their professional spells).   It's 20 DP for that talent (or 15 if you're a human with Professional Adaptability), but it pays for itself if you intend to take more than 10 ranks of non-favoured skills (less, actually, because Add. Prof. also gives you your choice of one professional talent, bonus, or sphere. e.g. taking a level of Fighter is a pretty good way for a Mage to get Lightning Reflexes or Shield Training, both of which cost 10 DP, AND rapidly improve their Athletic and Combat skills).

IMO, every caster should have at least 5 or 10 ranks in at least one weapon - even if they only ever use their quarterstaff or dagger for parrying in an emergency.   A good, solid whack with a qs is often more effective than a fire bolt or whatever, anyway.  And having a bow or something as a secondary weapon gives them something useful to do in combat if they run out of PP.    Additional Profession is a fast way of getting those ranks, otherwise buy them slowly at 4 DP per rank over a few levels.

[Zhaleskra]

You and I clearly have different approaches to character creation. For the most part, I max out Endurance at low levels regardless of the profession. I'd also have a "pure caster" who's better at casting one or two spells and has a good chance of avoiding being hurt in the first place by wearing armor at lower levels, and yes, reasonable with a melee and a ranged weapon than one who's good with multiple spells but has the damage absorption of a wet paper bag. So I might not max out Armor at 1st level, but I'd at least give them enough to wear Soft Leather with reasonable ease.

While Additional Profession is a way to change favored categories, Training Packages use existing costs but give you discount on the package. I know not everyone is fond of TPs, and to me, it gives me a quick picture of the idea of what the character wants and what motivates them.

[Keyron]

BTW, with maneuver penalties of -80, a foe could easily be captured.  or murderised while almost-defenceless.  That's kind of a monk's job - to incapacitate foes for their more stabby companions to clean up afterwards.

Thank you for the answer. My concern is not about the enemies, it's about the players because if they fight an enemy that gives them a -40 or more the combat will become particularly sluggish. Consequently they will start to complain to return to play D&D .

To maintain the combat lively I thought about a penalty decay, every round it halves until a minimum of (-5) except when the character is stunned or grabbed. I'll test it next week to see if it suits the game.

[craig]

You and I clearly have different approaches to character creation. For the most part, I max out Endurance at low levels regardless of the profession.

Yep, different approaches.   For a caster, i'm happy with 50-60 Endurance at 1st level - that's not too bad compared to even a dwarven fighter who'll have around 100.  In my experience, hit point loss doesn't kill PCs (or monsters) very often.  Criticals kill you.   Getting stunned kills you.

I'd also have a "pure caster" who's better at casting one or two spells and has a good chance of avoiding being hurt in the first place by wearing armor at lower levels, and yes, reasonable with a melee and a ranged weapon than one who's good with multiple spells but has the damage absorption of a wet paper bag. So I might not max out Armor at 1st level, but I'd at least give them enough to wear Soft Leather with reasonable ease.

I agree that avoiding getting hit is important.  IMO more important than being able to take a few hits.  So a high Qu is a good thing to have (helps with Initiative too).

Full suits of armor aren't good for casters.  Even Soft Leather has a casting penalty of 2, which is -10 to casting and probably another round to cast each spell, and Rigid Leather has a CP of 4.  With Armor By The Piece, it's not hard to come up with a combination of RL, SL, and/or Chain pieces that give almost the same DB (+15 to +20 DB) with zero casting penalty....or around +25 DB for +1 CP, or +30 DB for the same CP of +2.   Or better with improved materials or craftsmanship.  And the caster can add Mage Armor for another 20 DB or more.

(Note, however, that ABtP can increase the risk if you're using hit locations and you get hit in an un-armored location.  Or if you cast Mage Armor at the start of combat, you've got a minimum of SL, or better if scaled, on every location but some locations may be better protected, with RL or Ch instead).

Worse, the CP makes some spells impossible to cast for a 1st level caster who will have max ranks in any spell of 6.   They can't cast Light or a Tiny Elemental Ball, for example because an 8 PP spell (base 6, CP 2) requires 8 ranks.  They can't even cast an Elemental Bolt scaled up by 1 size to Small.

A PP Adder helps with CP, but if you use the adder to reduce or negate a +2 casting penalty, you don't get to use it for scaling too unless you've got a super-powered +3 or better adder....something you're not likely to have at low levels.

Physical is favoured for all profs, and 2-3 ranks of Armor skill (most cultures give at least 1) plus a decent Ag (and/or St) is good enough to eliminate the penalty from either a SL suit or roughly equivalent ABtP.

While Additional Profession is a way to change favored categories, Training Packages use existing costs but give you discount on the package. I know not everyone is fond of TPs, and to me, it gives me a quick picture of the idea of what the character wants and what motivates them.

Training Packages aren't incompatible with Additional Profession.  In fact, another prof can minimise the cost of a TP, depending on the skills & favoured categories.  And they can work very well thematically for a character's development (in both the DP and role playing senses of the word) - the PC Mage didn't just "take a level of Rogue", they "fell in with a band of 'adventurers' and learnt a few tricks".

[craig]

Thank you for the answer. My concern is not about the enemies, it's about the players because if they fight an enemy that gives them a -40 or more the combat will become particularly sluggish. Consequently they will start to complain to return to play D&D .

Perhaps.  IME penalties and stuns make combat nasty, brutish, and short.   I've seen 1st level PCs take down a Level 8 Ogre due to a very lucky first strike with a bow....after that, the Ogre had no hope because the PCs piled on while it was stunned, and kept it stunned until it died.  Of course, the same can happen to PCs.

If the PCs' first experiences with penalties and stuns are with them on the receiving end, they're unlikely to appreciate them.  They're less likely to complain when they're the ones inflicting those penalties on their enemies

So, maybe give them a bunch of lightly armored (or unarmored) goblins or kobolds or whatever for their first few encounters, to stack the odds slightly in their favour.  Once they're hooked, quit giving them a break.

BTW, if there's a Mage in the party, the 5 PP Stun Cloud spell can be devastating against low-level hordes.  Good for bottling up enemies in a corridor too, while the party bravely exercises the better part of valour.

To maintain the combat lively I thought about a penalty decay, every round it halves until a minimum of (-5) except when the character is stunned or grabbed. I'll test it next week to see if it suits the game.

Herbal and/or Potion bandoleers can also be used in combat to heal wounds or reduce penalties or stun rounds (BTW, eating an easily accessed herbal prep doesn't require a roll so can be done without penalty while stunned).   See Chapter 12 Herbs & Poisons, look for herbs with instant effect (like "Alfrith" that heals 10 hits and relieves 2 rounds of stun, and there are another 5 different Stun Relief herbs with instant effect). And if you don't see a herb that does what you want there, make one up.

Herbs are great treasures, just like potions - just make sure that PCs find some during their adventures.  Also encourage one or more party members to develop Herbcraft and Alchemy skills, and the Potion Mastery spell for scaled potions.

BTW, remember that the Alchemy skill not only lets you make un-scaled potions of any spell you know, you also learn how to make one potion (formula potion, or a spell potion for a spell you don't know) for every 5 skill ranks.  Minor or Major Healing are good choices.

Runes (HARP core rules) & Battle Runes (from Martial Law) can provide similar in-combat benefits.

(I use the Battle Runes rules from ML, but treat it as a sub-skill of Runes.  Doesn't make sense to me that it's a separate skill - so develop Runes skill to get both Runes and Battle Runes.)

Also, someone with the Minor (or Major) Healing spell can cast it in combat to help a party member (or themselves).   It's a +2 PP scaling option to change it from Touch to 10' Range.

[Zhaleskra]

While I can see reasons for craig's interpretation, I don't think the Agile Defense/Swashbuckler talent is intended to be affected by maneuver penalties. First, wearing armor isn't  a maneuver. Second, AD/S already has built in checks for whether or not it applies. Last, the "Other" section of armor calculation doesn't say anything about -MP. I could be wrong though.

I often tell players of HARP "yes, your character has hit points, but they mostly don't matter".

[Radimon]

IMAO, both the Armor skill and the Swashbuckler talent provide passive benefits. You NEVER make a Maneuver with them, ergo there is never a Maneuver Penalty to their effects.

[craig]

IMAO, both the Armor skill and the Swashbuckler talent provide passive benefits. You NEVER make a Maneuver with them, ergo there is never a Maneuver Penalty to their effects.

That's a perfectly reasonable house rule, and there's nothing at all wrong with house rules - but the Rules As Written (and as clarified in the HARP Errata & FAQ document) state that the Qu bonus to DB is reduced to, at worst, 0 due to penalties.   i.e. the Qu bonus can be reduced or eliminated entirely but not made negative.

Same for the Ag bonus to DB with the Swashbuckler talent.

[craig]

While I can see reasons for craig's interpretation, I don't think the Agile Defense/Swashbuckler talent is intended to be affected by maneuver penalties. First, wearing armor isn't  a maneuver. Second, AD/S already has built in checks for whether or not it applies. Last, the "Other" section of armor calculation doesn't say anything about -MP. I could be wrong though.

It's not an "interpretation".   If it was an interpretation, or just my opinion or preference then I would have said so.

But it's not any of those things.  It's directly stated in the HARP rules.

The Qu (and Ag, for Swashbuckler) portions of DB absolutely are intended to be affected by maneuver penalties (both the Min & Max MPs caused by wearing armor and the MPs caused by wounds).

You can house-rule it differently if you like, but the actual written rules are quite clear.

e.g. from page 95 of HARP, Chapter Ten (under the section heading Reading The Critical Tables):

Code: [Select]

Penalties – These are penalties on all Strength, Agility and Quickness Maneuvers (including OB).
These penalties may reduce a character’s DB, but only their Quickness bonus to their DB,
not Defensive Bonuses received from other sources.
These penalties cannot reduce a character’s Quickness bonus below zero.
And from the HARP Errata & FAQ (which can be found here in the Vault):

Swashbuckler

Question: Swashbuckler: this talent doesn't say how maneuver penalties are affecting it...

Are maneuver penalties supposed to be applied to i) the total of 2 x quickness +2 x agility, or to 2 x quickness and 2 x agility separately? This talent together with the "shielding weapon" talent seems to be quite.. over the top

Answer: Tim Dugger

The maneuver penalties from armor are applied against the total of quickness and agility combined.

However, it is important to remember that with this talent the character may not wear anything heavier than soft leather, which has a minimum maneuver penalty of zero, thus with just a few ranks in Armor, this entire question becomes moot.

I often tell players of HARP "yes, your character has hit points, but they mostly don't matter".

true.  hit points don't matter much.  crits kill.

[Zhaleskra]

Seems kind of redundant with a Talent with so many checks already built into it. Especially since the 2Qu - MP is 0 or X less than zero, so now I need to take what's left over and apply it to the 2Ag. I use the weights rather than armor types for determining if you can do Swashbuckler (or Agile Defense) as Reinforced Ballistic Armor weighs less than the heaviest Soft Leather Armor, whereas 20 lbs and 9 kg are roughly the same weight. Still, IMO, almost makes it not worth it to take the Talent.

[craig]

so now I need to take what's left over and apply it to the 2Ag.

For DB (and only DB) you apply the penalty to the sum of Qu x2 and Ag x2, with a minimum of 0.  DB from other sources (armor, shield, magic, cover, etc) is not affected by penalties.

So, if a PC's Qu bonus is 5 and their Ag bonus is also 5, that gives a DB bonus of 5x2 + 5x2, or 20.

If the PC is hit with a penalty of 5, then the Qu+Ag bonus to DB is reduced by 5, to 15.  If they get another penalty of 15, then their Qu+AG bonus to DB is reduced to 0.  If they get more penalties after that, it will not reduce their DB any further - because the Qu+Ag bonus to DB can not be reduced to below zero.

Still, IMO, almost makes it not worth it to take the Talent.

IMO most talents are over-priced in HARP, but a GM can always adjust the DP cost of talents to suit their world and play style.

The Swashbuckler talent is quite expensive at 25 DP (half a level's worth of DP, or 12.5 favoured skill ranks), but it can still useful for those who want to play a lightly armored PC and maximise their DB.    Ag is a good stat to have a good score in anyway, because lots of skills (including almost all weapon and combat skills) make use of it.  Getting a DB bonus out of it too just makes it even better.

It's not terribly hard to get racial+stat bonuses of +10, and with Swashbuckler an Ag bonus of 10 would add 20 to DB for a DP cost of 25.  If you have the same for Qu, that's another 20.   Add Soft Leather (or ABtP equivalent) and you have a DB of 60.  Add Mage Armor (or Steel Skin or whatever) and you now have a DB of at least 80, with no armor-based penalties to combat or other St/Ag/Qu skills.   And don't forget the Universal Boost Qu and Boost Ag spells.


BTW, there are some nice example magic items in the HARP rule book that improve armor.  e.g. the "Mage's Vest" adds +25 to DB.  And others that boost Qu or Ag.