Topic: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?

[bpowell]

OK, before we get jumping into adventures, let get the town built first.  I was thinking a few small coal and iron mines in the hills to the north.  Insignificant when compared to the output of Roog, but enough to keep a few families busy.  Also, giving the town an income stream that is slightly unique to those in the area. This would give us some lower level plot hooks (go check on the XYZ family, or escort Mr. ABC back home with his supplies for the next 3 months.)

-BP

[egdcltd]

With the town being on the main road, and a day's travel from the next major place, an inn with rooms to stay the night is highly likely. Perhaps a tavern for the locals as well, perhaps not. The inn would probably brew the majority of its own alcohol; wheat beer, rye whisky and perhaps vodka (or something else that can be made from tubers) seem to be the most likely drinks, given the staple crops of the region.

Also, with it being on the road, you'd probably get some appropriate service businesses. A blacksmith is highly likely no matter what, but this one may be capable of working on wagons. Other businesses related to looking after wagons and horses would seem probable. The inn would likely have a stable.

[bpowell]

Here is some of the things I have roughed out...it is not even set in water, let alone concrete.

The town is situated on the road between Rapata and Tepentor.  It is bustling town of around 850 residents.  The main source of commerce here is the road.  There is not one but three inns.  Each one caters to a specific crowd (One is mostly used by locals, one by the owners of the caravans that pass through constantly, and the last for the caravan workers- guards, drovers and the like). There is also a mill in town to convert the local grains to flour.  While all of the Inns boast the best Ale or beer in the area (with a town festival to choose each fall) there is actually a distillery making alcohol from grains and the like (Whiskey and Vodka).

A blacksmith is there to shoe horses and make minor repairs on metal tools and gear.  Nearby is the wheelwright to ensure that the wagons are kept in good repair.  A large livery stable is available to care for horses, and with connections to a few ranches (farms) in the area where good horse flesh can rarely be found (the bad is sold to the inns).

There is a small shrine here with an old priest, and an apothecary to provide remedies for the ailing.  But any major injuries will have to be stabilized and sent on to Rapata.

The blacksmith uses contacts in the hills to gather coal and iron for his forge.  Often there is also tin, copper and lead brought in by the few families attempting to scratch out a living by mining the few deposits in the hills to the north.

The docks are in a protected cove and the traffic is mostly fishermen.  They fish cod, herring and even some lobster from the shallower waters of Syrania Bay.  Some small merchants pull in, mostly to take off wool, salted mutton, smoked herring and cod, and some of the ores that are to be found.

As I said broad strokes.  Comments?  Am I out in left field?

-BP

[egdcltd]

850 might be a bit on the high side for the population; that would possibly make it a bit too important and large for the area, especially given that it is fairly close to a major urban area. Although a smaller town would probably require less inns. I was going to say tin seems unlikely, but it looks to be a product of the region, so perhaps there could be some.

[Terry K. Amthor]

850 might be a bit on the high side for the population; that would possibly make it a bit too important and large for the area, especially given that it is fairly close to a major urban area. Although a smaller town would probably require less inns. I was going to say tin seems unlikely, but it looks to be a product of the region, so perhaps there could be some.

I like bpowell's but agree that maybe the town could be a bit smaller, and one maybe two inn with tavern/eating place and one other tavern more for locals. Also residents might take in guests during peak periods to make extra money.

As for Rapata (which might come later) I have written a chapter for my Loremaster fiction where the group comes to Rapata, with fairly detailed description of their time in the larger town. I can make a PDF of that section for reference for you, but again, that is for later.

Sorry if I am jumping in with too much specific advice; I'd like to see you guys run with this without too much interference from me.

[bpowell]

OK, I am not getting defensive and defending my ideas here, just an open question.  How are populations in the Shadow World counted?  The reason I ask is that most of the times people just think of the adults and leave out all the rest.  I was thinking of a US Census type count where they count every living person in all of the houses.  This is the basis of my count.  Therefore using the adult/child ratio of the early Renaissance  was between 5 to 7 children per mother (Source Victoria and Albert Museum).  I reduced this to approximately 3 children per household, due to lower birthrates for some of the races.  This would bring the total adult population to around 350.  So I can use 500 as a baseline, is this more on what you are looking for?  (A population of 500 is not genetically viable, but being on the road this would reduce that issue.)

Reducing the number of inns to 2 is OK.  I can use the "Boarding House" idea for peak travel overflow.  Was just looking for a large caravan might have 30 people or so, if you count drovers and the like.  In most cases a "Inn" might only be able to house 20 or so.  Also, overflow could be handled by a widow woman taking in boarders to make more money.

As for the Tin production, I used the Xa-ar source document.  I was looking for a small side business using tin copper and lead (an older recipe from earlier times) to make pewter items.  This allows me to do an adventure hooks to send a group to the hills to collect the items.

Terry you cannot be giving too much advice, I am asking for help here.  While I have started construction of the town on paper (I envision some contractors working in Xa-ar making it happen  )  But I would like to have something that we all agree on.  So feel free to tell me what you see as not working and give advice on what will.

That goes for anyone on this thread, please help!   

-BP

[egdcltd]

Are you just counting the people in the urban area, or in the surrounding countryside? 850 for an urban area is close to the bottom end of 17th century British city, which is why I thought it was high, as that would make it very nearly a city in size.

If only a portion of that lives in the city - perhaps a few hundred or so - and the rest in the surrounding countryside, it would seem more probable.

Tin, I originally thought was improbable until I re-read the portion of Xa-ar. So it is known in the area (in Europe it was pretty rare, and in the Bronze Age sources of tin were militarily important assets).

Caravans, I would imagine that at least some people stay with the caravan at all times. Guards if nothing else. So at least a portion of the caravan's people wouldn't need residence in town. Plus staying at an inn eats into profits.

[bpowell]

Are you just counting the people in the urban area, or in the surrounding countryside? 850 for an urban area is close to the bottom end of 17th century British city, which is why I thought it was high, as that would make it very nearly a city in size.

If only a portion of that lives in the city - perhaps a few hundred or so - and the rest in the surrounding countryside, it would seem more probable.

Tin, I originally thought was improbable until I re-read the portion of Xa-ar. So it is known in the area (in Europe it was pretty rare, and in the Bronze Age sources of tin were militarily important assets).

Caravans, I would imagine that at least some people stay with the caravan at all times. Guards if nothing else. So at least a portion of the caravan's people wouldn't need residence in town. Plus staying at an inn eats into profits.

Excellent questions!

I am counting everyone in the "sphere of influence".  I see anyone within a 2-3 hour walk from the town center.  They could be in town at the drop of a hat. I see them in town for market day, buying items from the blacksmith, providing produce to the Inn, etc.  I see the town as being 30 buildings or so.  This includes warehouses, the inn the brewery, and a local "municipal building" (I am seeing as a converted warehouse where communal items are kept like fire fighting equipment.)  The rest would be separated from the town proper by at least a mile or so.

Does that answer the question?

Ooooh, never thought about Bronze....  I see the deposits as small.  Say a few hundred pounds of Tin production a year.  This would be mostly consumed in house, with say 30-40 pounds being shipped to Rapata a year.  This is not enough for a group to try to take over the town, but enough to have raiders attack the town from time to time (can we say Plot Hook?)

Here is what I am thinking there is an Inn ( a building run solely as a lodging and eating place), with an "Alehouse" (the brewery I mentioned) that produces ales, beers, cider and even some distilled liqueur. I also has some food (think pub grub).  Then there is a widow woman that takes in boarders from time to time.

Comments?  Thoughts?  Am I out playing left field again?

-BP

[jdale]

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm has really useful advice about the ratio of businesses to population. You may have more or less than the average depending on local conditions, e.g. if there is an unusual amount of traffic on the road then it may support more than the average number of inns. (Which is suggested at one inn per 2000 residents, so with a population of 850 that means only a 42% chance of having one at all.) I don't think it's bad to diverge from those numbers, you should just think about why.

Taking in boarders implies that there is a reason people would travel to this village and stay there for an extended period, on business. (If it was social, they would stay with family etc.) It seems small to support that need on a frequent basis, but again, you could come up with a reason.

[bpowell]

This is a town that makes its income on travel.  Therefore it has more than its share of accommodations.  While there are large chances of rooms being vacant in the town, especially in the "off season" it is easy to close them up and only open them once they are needed.  Having lived in areas (Hawaii and Colorado) that have incomes based on this I can tell you that this is the case.  It is always better to have rooms to rent than not have them and need them.

Also, in times before the industrial age most unmarried males did not have a kitchen in the home.  Heck, I have unmarried friends I doubt could find the kitchen of it was not where the refrigerator (beer storage) was located.  This means most take meals out.  This is why almost EVERY town has some sort of Inn/Tavern/Alehouse.  While I know the tourist trade is a modern artifact, but if you look at historical documents from the Western Expansion of the US, towns were constructed about every 30 miles along roads. if it was feasible.  This is because it was a days travel using horses.  And while it was a "two horse town"  the local housewife set out food for travelers, the first construction after that was some form of Inn.

Most places in well traveled routes have multiple places to stay.  I know that here in CO it is a strange thing but towns that are Whistle stops along the road over 70% of the buildings are set up to service travelers (Hotels, restaurants, gas stations).  Moving this to a per-industrial setting we have an Inn, an Alehouse and the widow woman taking in travelers.  And the large Livery stable, a wheelwright and the like.

While I am not discounting the website you quote, I am basing this of documents from the Western Expansion of the US.  If, I need to totally rethink the ideas I put forth I will.  But this town must have enough traffic for people to come to it.  This is why I used the road between Rapata and Tepentor (and points west).  Most trade would move along this route, allowing the town to have a skewed number of "service" industries.  Trust me if the town did not have the services the travelers would pass it by and find a campsite elsewhere.  And this town would be a few houses and the "need" for adventurers would vanish.

Am I totally wrong?  I am open to a discussion.

-BP
 

[jdale]

The site I linked suggests one tavern per 400 people, so it's not in disagreement with you about that. Inns, on the other hand, 1 per 2000. You can't be profitable without a certain minimal level of business. If there's no inn, there certainly may be a farmer willing to rent out flop space in his barn. But, again, I think you can justify more, you just need to describe the reason for the extra traffic on the road, and you can probably use that explanation in the story as well.

[bpowell]

No worries, was just wondering if I am out in a field and not even close to what others thing as reality.  I think with the heavy traffic I can justify the three establishments.  Also with the Brewery/Alehouse making harder spirits, these could be exported to Rapata as a source of income.

I have placed a sizable garden in the area right behind the Inn so times when there is no traffic would b a cash poor time but not too much of a hardship for the family.  I spend a lot of time in a town named Breckenridge here in Colorado.  During the winter and summer almost every room is rented out 24/7.  In the spring and fall you can get a room very easily.  Most people are doing maintenance and getting ready for the next rush of customers.  Also, because of the traffic many people come to town to get jobs.

So, is there any objections with going with what was proposed?

-BP

[egdcltd]

I think the religious personage should probably be from the Cult of the Blue Dragon, so he may have an acolyte too. There's probably a Sister of Ginh Tarn in the village as well; I doubt there would be two of them. Perhaps an old battlefield somewhere outside the village.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Just an organizational suggestion... I think there are lots of great ideas here, and you are reaching a point where you might need to determine who is seriously on board, and decide among you who is the editor to guide this thing. You might need a livechat amongst yourselves to organize things. You need someone who has the time and desire to guide this and coordinate with the other contributors.

I would also consult with Nicholas if you have not already. (I think—but don't assume—that there would be some compensation when this is published.)

This maybe should be moved to the SW product development section of the forums that Nicholas created awhile back, but that's for him to decide.

Once that is done, then put together a detailed proposal/outline for Nicholas and me to look at.

Just my suggestion on how to proceed. I am sure Nicholas will have thoughts as well.

[egdcltd]

Yes, I agree that we're getting to the point where it needs making into a proper project. Seeing who wants to join, who can do what, who already has experience in publishing material (not just self-publishing) and how to keep track of just what each contributor has done (needed for sorting out any potential compensation if nothing else).

[bpowell]

I think the religious personage should probably be from the Cult of the Blue Dragon, so he may have an acolyte too. There's probably a Sister of Ginh Tarn in the village as well; I doubt there would be two of them. Perhaps an old battlefield somewhere outside the village.

I had an idea that a Sister of Ginh Tarn was in the village.  I know that most of the Lotana in this area are devoted followers of the Cult of the Blue Dragon.  The Sister is more or less a midwife that is a short term resident.  Also I was going to have a small untended shrine to Neela, Patron of Sailors.

-BP

[egdcltd]

Untended shrines to Iloura might also be found in the nearby countryside.

[bpowell]

Untended shrines to Iloura might also be found in the nearby countryside.

I can see that.  I was thinking most of the farmers/ ranchers in the area would have personal household shrines to her, but I could easily see a untended shrine maintained by a few families in the area.

-BP

[Arc]

Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.

And of course there needs to be an inn!  - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it 
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).

I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.

[Arc]

I agree with TKA and egdcltd that it's time to take this from the idea phase and to establish this as a proper project.

I could potentially be coaxed into volunteering as an editor for this... Now, I don't have any actual editorial experience, but I have significant (multi-million dollar) project management experience. How come I have the feeling I will be regretting this???  Kidding aside, I'm excited that there is so much interest and passion to produce more material for Shadow World and I'm happy to help that come true any way I can. I'm also happy to just consume new SW material or help in some other capacity (if needed), so if someone else feels strongly about taking on the "pain" of managing this project, feel free to step up