Topic: need advice / help handling harp stuns

[Augury]

Chaps,

Stun seems to be pretty hard to track in harp due to the added book keeping involved with stun resistance. My last fight almost ground to a halt with a lot of heated discussion about how stun should be handled, when it should be resisted and what is being resisted.

Initially we followed core rules allowing resistance at top of round. But this soon fell apart when a creature had its acton in a round, then got stunned which caused it no ill effect that round and then resisted it at the top of the next and then attacked again. Players felt it unfair that a stunned creature attacked in both rounds.
We then modified the rule to now say that you resist just before your next attack / action. If fail then you are still stunned for that action.  This solved the issue noted above but added to book keeping. A stun now affects your next action, not the round.  But it is hard to visualise what's happening and track with 4-8 players plus bad guys.

In addition if you get stunned 2 rnds in round 1 then fail to resist in rnd 2 but then get stunned 2 more rnds in rnd 2 what are you now resisting? 3 rnds of stun or a 1 and a 2? Yikes.

Anyone got a simple and elegant approach? Didn't enjoy stun monitoring at all last session.

Augs

[dagorhir]

Initially we followed core rules allowing resistance at top of round. But this soon fell apart when a creature had its acton in a round, then got stunned which caused it no ill effect that round and then resisted it at the top of the next and then attacked again. Players felt it unfair that a stunned creature attacked in both rounds.
We then modified the rule to now say that you resist just before your next attack / action. If fail then you are still stunned for that action.  This solved the issue noted above but added to book keeping. A stun now affects your next action, not the round.  But it is hard to visualise what's happening and track with 4-8 players plus bad guys.

This can happen, if anyone resists the stun, it has no effect just like if the critical didn't occur. This can happen to player characters also. They won't complain then.

A good record keeping technique helps out. I keep a stun record sheet to keep track of all stuns.

In addition if you get stunned 2 rnds in round 1 then fail to resist in rnd 2 but then get stunned 2 more rnds in rnd 2 what are you now resisting? 3 rnds of stun or a 1 and a 2? Yikes.

I treat this as two different stun wounds, so it's stun 1rnd + stun 2rds with two resistance rolls. You can get strange things where the first stun isn't resisted but the second one is. 

I do this because 2rnds of stun and 3 rnds of stun don't have the same RR target, 110 and 120 respectively. I know the players will prefer having the lower RR target.

I keep track of stuns much like I keep track of initiative and spell duration. It resolves around finding a way to keep track of everything. You can always off load some of that book keeping to the players and have them keep track of there stuns.

I know a GM how uses cards to keep track of this. He hands out a card for each round of stun, which the player hands one back at his turn each round. That could work for you.

In my case, I'm excessively computerized. I do all the book keeping on computer. Cuts down on the paperwork.

[Thom @ ICE]

Initially we followed core rules allowing resistance at top of round. But this soon fell apart when a creature had its acton in a round, then got stunned which caused it no ill effect that round and then resisted it at the top of the next and then attacked again. Players felt it unfair that a stunned creature attacked in both rounds.

Your players are correct. Stunned individuals may not attack on their next action. If their next action is the next round, then that action cannot be an attack.  If a multi-round stun is indicated in round 1 (after the character has already acted) then the character is stunned for round 2 as their first round of stun.  Round 3 they declare their action and roll to see if they shake off the stun or else they are stunned for their second round of stun.

We then modified the rule to now say that you resist just before your next attack / action. If fail then you are still stunned for that action.  This solved the issue noted above but added to book keeping. A stun now affects your next action, not the round.  But it is hard to visualise what's happening and track with 4-8 players plus bad guys.

This is correct - however I am missing where it adds additional bookkeeping.

In addition if you get stunned 2 rnds in round 1 then fail to resist in rnd 2 but then get stunned 2 more rnds in rnd 2 what are you now resisting? 3 rnds of stun or a 1 and a 2? Yikes.

Just to make it more complicated, I'll add in the post-action stun.

Rd 1
Character A wins initiative and strikes (but misses).
B then strikes A and scores a 2 round stun.

Rd 2
A declares a full parry and rolls his Stamina, but fails. He can only parry with half OB.
B strikes A again scores another 2 round stun.

Rd 3
A declares a full parry and rolls his Stamina check against the 1st strike again, and then rolls another Stamina check against the second strike.  He succeeds on the first, but fails the second. He is still stunned for round 3 (and possibly round 4).
B  ends his life with a full out power attack and A is now dead...  No reason to continue rolling 


See this thread for more info:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=13069.msg169221#msg169221

[dagorhir]

Your players are correct. Stunned individuals may not attack on their next action. If their next action is the next round, then that action cannot be an attack.  If a multi-round stun is indicated in round 1 (after the character has already acted) then the character is stunned for round 2 as their first round of stun.  Round 3 they declare their action and roll to see if they shake off the stun or else they are stunned for their second round of stun.

  My understanding of stun resistance is that if it was resisted then the individual was not stunned and may act normally.

[Thom @ ICE]

Correct - if your resistance roll is successful you are not stunned by that attack. My statement assumed that the roll was failed, otherwise it is irrelevant to discuss whether an attack is lost or not.  My apologies for not being clear.

[dagorhir]

Correct - if your resistance roll is successful you are not stunned by that attack. My statement assumed that the roll was failed, otherwise it is irrelevant to discuss whether an attack is lost or not.  My apologies for not being clear.

So the situation where character A attacks first then gets a stunned by character B, the next round character A resists the stun and then attacks and kills character B is possible?

[Thom @ ICE]

Yes -
Also,
if Character B attacks first and stuns A, then A resists the stun during round 1, A can kill B in that same round.  Resists effectively eliminate the stun.  Initiative does not.

[dagorhir]

Many kobolds have died because of this rule. 

I think the use of stun cards make actually simplify any book keeping for stuns, since you can  just hand to the player the number of cards for each round of stun. If they resist, they give back the cards if not they keep them. They hand back one card, at their initiative, each round they are stunned until they no longer have any cards, which means they are no longer stunned (assuming they survived).

This could be a simple way of keeping track of things. I may well use this to give my players a visibility on their stun rounds.

This could be your answer Augury.

[Thom @ ICE]

Just remember that the target for the resist roll remains constant at the initial level.
If you use the card method don't think that 1 card resists as a 1 round stun.... it may be a 3 round stun which is in the 3rd round and resists as a 3 round stun (even in round 3)

Ideally, a card for each round that states the resist target would help you keep track of both the # of rounds of stun still to go, and the target for each one.

[dagorhir]

Just remember that the target for the resist roll remains constant at the initial level.
If you use the card method don't think that 1 card resists as a 1 round stun.... it may be a 3 round stun which is in the 3rd round and resists as a 3 round stun (even in round 3)

Ideally, a card for each round that states the resist target would help you keep track of both the # of rounds of stun still to go, and the target for each one.

Indeed, I had thought of this. The GM I know that uses this system isn't playing with Harp. He doesn't have to deal with the RR. It was a given in my mind that the stun cards do not determine the RR, but merely counts the number of rounds.

As I mull this in my mind, this card thing may have other uses as well, like penalty wounds or bonuses, or even spell duration. Conceivably, there could even be a card specifically for the stamina RR.

I know this can make a lot a cards, but at some level it could well simply book keeping and speed up things in the game.

I would like to spend more time on the story and less time on keeping track of the game mechanics.

[Old Man]

Just remember that the target for the resist roll remains constant at the initial level.
If you use the card method don't think that 1 card resists as a 1 round stun.... it may be a 3 round stun which is in the 3rd round and resists as a 3 round stun (even in round 3)

Ideally, a card for each round that states the resist target would help you keep track of both the # of rounds of stun still to go, and the target for each one.

So something like:

Stun 1 of 1, make a Stamina roll at -0

Stun 1 of 2, make a Stamina roll at -10
Stun 2 of 2, make a Stamina roll at -10

Stun 1 of 3, make a Stamina roll at -20
Stun 2 of 3, make a Stamina roll at -20
Stun 3 of 3, make a Stamina roll at -20
etc...

[Thom @ ICE]

Correct, that is what would be required.

[Cory Magel]

Speaking from an RMSS point of view and with our own modifications...

We cut stuns in half, rounded up, and they roll off as your initiative comes up.  Stunned maneuvering removes rounds of stun and is rolled at the time of the stun and applies to that specific set of stuns received from that hit only.

It pretty much comes down to one reason: Stuns dragged the combats out and, in the bigger picture, had little other impact.  Changing stun sped up our combats and, we feel, did not detract from anything else significantly.

Lastly, players have a combat sheet in a dry erase sleeve and track their own stuff (like stuns, bleeding, etc).

[Augury]

Hi guys,

So thank you all for your comments and thoughts on the topic I posted.  Ive thought long and hard about this and I proposed to my group the following.  Personally I think its an elegant balance between book keeping needs (i really dont want to original stun lengths from individual blows) but neither do I want to penalise players for the increased difficulty of resisting 'cumulative stun'.  Here are the house rules I came up with:

2.1 Stuns

When are you stunned?
 - - The moment in the round the critical or spell delivers the stun

When can I resist my stun?
 - - At your next primary initiative in the round you received the stun, or if you are stunned after your initiative then you resist in the next round on your primary initiative.
 - - If you use two weapon combo and are stunned after your primary initiative (which would be after your 1st attack) then you do not get your second attack and cannot resist the stun until your primary initiative in the next round.

When is stun ‘naturally’ removed?
 - - One round of stun is removed from a player in the round after their stun if they lost an action due to stun in the previous round.
 - - If they did not lose an action in the previous round even though they were stunned then no stun is removed naturally at their initiative in the next round. 

How do I resist my stun?
 - - Determine the RR required for ALL accumulated stun (see table below).
 - - Roll open ended and add your Stamina RR total bonus to the roll.
 - - If it is over the required RR you are completely un-stunned AT your initiative.
 - - If you fail your stun RR, it is no longer an automatic ‘no effect’.  You may have partially resisted your accumulated stun.  See table below.

Total Stun      RR required to          Partial Resistance Success
in Rounds       resist total stun     (rounds removed from stun)
1                          110                 1
2                          120                 2
3                          130                 3
4                          140                 4
5                          150                 5
6                          160                 6
7                          170                 7
8                          180                 8
9                          190                 9
10                        200                 10

So a character who is stunned for 3 rnds in rnd one after his init, and then a further 2 rounds in round 2 before his init is stunned for a total of 5 rounds, and even though he 'fails' his stun RR to shake all 5 rounds (150) he does manage to roll 141 and thus removes 4 of the 5 rounds of stun at his init.

I think this is quicker to track, allows characters to feel like they are making some progress at eroding stun rather than all or nothing and I can now just place cumulative stun tokens beside characters on our hex board for easy and visible stun tracking.

Im scared to ask what you all think as its a bit different to the core rules but hey, my group loved it.

Augs

[Thom @ ICE]

It looks good, but for myself I don't like the fact that multiple stuns can be shrugged off quickly by a single good RR roll - then again, if it works for you, go for it and best of luck with it.

Other than that single roll resolution, your house rule matches the official rules.

[Cory Magel]

Somewhat similar to Thom I don't like allowing you to shrug off multiple stuns from multiple attacks at once.  You must resist at the time you are stunned and the resistance only applies to those stuns from that attack.  This means if you take three hits which all result in stuns, you're going to have to make three 'resist stun' rolls that round.

So, if you are hit and stunned for 3 rounds, you roll to resist and we'll say shrug off two of them.  You have 1 stun left.

If you get hit a second time in the same round and receive 2 rounds of stun, you resist and only shrug off one of them, you are now stunned for a total of 2 rounds (1 from the first, 1 from the second).

If you get hit a third time in the same round and receive only 1 stuff, then resist and achieve a result which could shrug off a total of 3, you still only shrug off the 1 you just received and are still stunned for 2 rounds.  You can't shrug off the others as they were not received on this third attack.

If you have not acted in that round 1 stun retained rolls off.  If you have already acted it does not roll off next round (after your action) and you still have 1 more to go...

[dagorhir]

Somewhat similar to Thom I don't like allowing you to shrug off multiple stuns from multiple attacks at once.  You must resist at the time you are stunned and the resistance only applies to those stuns from that attack.  This means if you take three hits which all result in stuns, you're going to have to make three 'resist stun' rolls that round.

That's how I use it also, but I also use CRR like process for stun resistance. In the case where a character is stunned 3 rounds it comes to this:

CRR 120+  all stun round resisted
CRR 110     first and second rounds are resisted
CRR 100     first round is resisted.

This keeps with the standard rule where the RR doesn't change in subsequent rounds. Unless you roll above 120 (for 3 rounds), you always have at least 1 round of stun. This also allows characters to shrug off everything if they get a high enough roll.

[Zut]

I like this system! The RR is lower as the number of stuns diminishes. Makes easy bookkeeping and uses tokens. As I like board games with many tokens (like Descent), this solution fits my style very well!

[LukeZ]

If you resist a 5 rounds stun (at the start of the 2nd round), you cancels all the remaining (4) rounds of stun?

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

If you resist a 5 rounds stun (at the start of the 2nd round), you cancels all the remaining (4) rounds of stun?

Yes.

Best wishes,
Nicholas