Topic: 2nd row Pole Arm?

[markc]

 IYO do you need any training to be able to attack from the 2nd row with a polearm or other weapon with a long reach?


  I am asking because I am thinking about making it an option for Combat Arts and not something that is just free for everyone.


Thanks
MDC

[Lord Garth]

Tricky question. I'd say that depending on the situation you need a morale check to stay put (which is what you'd do against a charge) but I wouldn't necessarily qualify it as a different skill in Rolemaster.

On the other hand, since combat is inherently a mobile affair, and a second line combatant is mostly static with his pointed stick trying to pierce through whatever is on the other side, perhaps a skill to determine which percentage of both his OB and DB (being static would gimp his own DB) is usable could be an idea. Fumbles would mean him making unwanted holes in his comrades in front of him.

Hmmmm, so my answer would be that whereas I don't think a new skill is "needed" I would use it since there's merit to the idea.

[Kristen Mork]

In my game, the option to attack from the second rank is not automatic.  But, it's also not an entirely different skill, either.  Instead, it's a "maneuver" that a character can choose to learn as he gains ranks in the weapon category.

Otherwise, I would apply cover bonuses.

[jdale]

Realistically, yes.

In practice, does it merit adding another skill and taking away DPs from existing skills? I don't think so. You could assume it's part of the training for weapons that are suitable to be used this way.

[markc]

 I was not thinking about making it a skill but an option to add to Combat Styles from the MAC. I guess in this was it is a skill but just a cheep costing skill.
Thanks
MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

I could see the sense in a "Shield Wall Style", but the benefits would vary according to what weapon you use. The sword-and-shield guy doesn't benefit from the style in the same way as the pole armsman. The guys using 2 handed non-pole weapons, or a weapon in each hand... I suppose they could benefit from the style in the sense of knowing what tactics are needed against it, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

It would require a minimum 3 people to use the style at all, I'd think. 2 shields and a pole arm.

Hmmm...

[markc]

I could see the sense in a "Shield Wall Style", but the benefits would vary according to what weapon you use. The sword-and-shield guy doesn't benefit from the style in the same way as the pole armsman. The guys using 2 handed non-pole weapons, or a weapon in each hand... I suppose they could benefit from the style in the sense of knowing what tactics are needed against it, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

It would require a minimum 3 people to use the style at all, I'd think. 2 shields and a pole arm.

Hmmm...

 I agree that you need at least 3 people. I am also looking at info in War Law to add to the MAC styles.
MDC

[bpowell]

Would all three have to know the Combat style from the MAC?

[yammahoper]

It seems to me that the only reason to learn/be trained to use a pole arm long enough to strike from the second or third row is in a military/militia unit designed to use the tactic.

Very long pole arms are less than useful when fighting alone.  It gets droped and the side arm (mace, axe or short swords/daggers were common, hand and a half if you were swedish) gets drawn.

As for a three man team?  Hmm...as long as they are mobile enough. 

It's interesting that the greeks, who specialized in fighting in a line, drilled for mobility and how to march/follow the drums orders/fill holes in the line.  They did not stress weapon handling as they felt the natural energy and savage nature of a man was more than enough to boil the blood and kill others when needed.

Use of polearns traditionally requires formations and discipline, knowing what to do and what your fellow soldier was going to do. 

The bardiche was a very short polearm more suitable to open field battle.  It also was used to support musket fire.  lacking a hook or spear tip, it was primarily an over sized ax.

The halbard was a a particularly effective polearms.  The hook allowed second rank strikes to pull riders from the horse.  There were also noted masters of the weapon in hand to hand on the battle field, but when pressed, even they typically droped it in favor of a smaller melee weapon.

Still, players tend to be the exception, so go for it and have fun.  Players best be ready to drop and draw a side arm if their foe gets inside the pole arm and past the dangerous pointy part.

[markc]

Would all three have to know the Combat style from the MAC?

 IMHO, Yes they would all need to know or have the option in their combat art.
MDC

[yammahoper]

I see a difference between a combat style and cooperative fighting.  Styles offer bonuses and abilities with weapons, mods for skills used while using a weapon.  What skill set is in play here?  What weapon?  What skills should be modified by the style?

War Law has skills more in line for what is being done here, and those skills are for training units, not so much individuals.  I agree with the Greeks: the soldier will develop his weapon skill on his own, and in battle deploy it to the best of his ability.

If a skill is really needed to express this tactic, then tactics (unit combat) is probably good enough. 

[markc]

 I was also toying with the idea that it could also be a one time DP cost. Sort of like a talent but it could be bought after PC gen. I may go this route also as I have a few other things that I would like to provide to the players through the single DP purchase.
MDC

[VladD]

I'd like to pitch in some thoughts on polearms as well.

They are great. From the stone age, right to the industrial age (WW I) they were used by all armies. There were a number of reasons for that.

- pole arms were 2 handed weapons, capable of defeating armor, as indicated by their type.
- polearms, although people picture them as being used ONLY in rank and file combat, were actually also very useful in one on one combat. Only the really long 10'+ weapons were specifically designed to be used in shield walls, to ward off cavalry, but also as a shield wall defeating weapon by hooking the enemy's shield from second rank and allowing the first rank to strike true.
- Pole arms are very good at defending: first they keep people at a distance: beyond striking range, second: they act like quarter staffs for parrying, thirdly they had special attachments for tasks like pulling off riders, pushing off siege ladders and deflecting massed pole arm formations coming at you, fourthly the variety of pole arm heads were meant for dealing with all kinds of armor.
- The pole axe was considered to be a dangerous knightly weapon that competed in the Lists (the deulling lists) in a class of its own, because other weapons were not a match for it.
- Pole arms served many other purposes, such as a walking stick for infantry units on the move, tent pole, carrying leverage for a knapsack and other camp gear.
- They were great for keeping peasants in line, featuring a non-peasant-mauling-end to keep the peasants from dieing and costing the lord income.
- The length made you strike first in combat
- Even though the length made you strike first, they could be "reeled" in and used like a quarter staff for close quarter fighting.
- They could be used to strike from the second and possibly third rank, but also on higher up targets, or accross ditches and moats.
- Flags could be attached to the pole so the general would know which pike block belonged to his army and which swiss mercenary company didn't.
- When used correctly and by trained troops, could ward off a charge when set to receive a charge.
- Pole arms were difficult to disarm, because you wielded it two handed.
- Most pole arms could be used to cause a foe to stumble.
- The length gave you the option of striking below the shield (or feinting to strike there), to strike the area left undefended by the opponent's shield.

As you can see: although they aren't used much in RPG's, GM's might consider allowing some of the above advantages so pole arms could become righteously popular again.
Perhaps introduce a combat skill: Pole arm use, or whatever to allow its use from second rank, allow the miscellaneous attachments to be used correctly and allow setting to receive charge and other tricks, such as a shield pull, or a leg feint, or a cavalrist take down.

PS: the bardiche DID have a spear tip like point on the top of the axe. The Strelsky troops doubled as enforcers in the town they were stationed in and the bardiche was a tool of felling trees and making wooden fortifications, supporting muskets, warding off cavalry, keep away rebellious peasants and executing subdued rebellious peasants afterwards.
Another multi purpose weapon!

[JimiSue]

I agree that these weapons are more use in melee and rpgs than a lot of people give them credit for. I had a rogue in a d20 game who was essentially a coward. She used a long spear in combat (similar to a pike in that it was essentially a very long shaft with a pointy bit on the end), and would hide behind the main row fighters until opportunity gave her the chance for a devastating thrust through a gap to skewer the opponent. In that case since the character is specifically waiting for an opportunity, the GM ruled no penalties applied.

For an example of a character in fiction using a polearm, check out the Dragonsbane books by Barbara Hambly. Well, check them out anyway because they are a good read, but one of the main protagonists uses a glaive as their prefered weapon, effectively using it not only from horseback but also in melee, and later in the series, from dragonback too.

[Lord Garth]

I agree that these weapons are more use in melee and rpgs than a lot of people give them credit for. I had a rogue in a d20 game who was essentially a coward. She used a long spear in combat (similar to a pike in that it was essentially a very long shaft with a pointy bit on the end), and would hide behind the main row fighters until opportunity gave her the chance for a devastating thrust through a gap to skewer the opponent. In that case since the character is specifically waiting for an opportunity, the GM ruled no penalties applied.

Graveyards are full of brave people …

[GrumpyOldFart]

Yes, but the graveyards are full of everyone, sooner or later.

If when the monster you ran from is dead, you are still alive to gloat at the people who called you coward for running, that counts as a win.

[Nortti]

I have used polearms in the game and especially in Rolemaster they work great. As weapons they make a lot of sense to use. Often PCs are against a larger force and a more organized troop of course uses formation tactics. It kind of represents their co-operation, culture and ability to work together.

I have been keeping it relatively simple, so that the first rank will attack with a normal OB and behind them there is 3 soldiers that can try to hit with -20 OB. In first rank 2 soldiers will attack with a normal OB, 3 with -20 from 2nd, which makes 5 attacks. PC can then divide his DB as he wants to these 5 and then we roll initiative.

Having to divide your DB like this is really what changes everything - and for a reason I think.

It would be possible to make it more complicated (as always) but this has been the level that has been suitable for us. For example there could be less or more hitters from behind the first rank. Other factors that arise from the situation I have just decided according to the actions and circumstances.