Topic: Starting Level

[markc]

More than anything, I'd say the discussion demonstrates that the level system isn't always a happy match with the skill system. The limit to the number of ranks of most skills which can be acquired in a given level requires a fairly high level to have a high skill, given normal human/PC race stats, which in some respects is rather unfortunate. You can fix it with freebie ranks (even easier if it's a secondary skill) but that might be too ad-hoc for some/most people.

 I agree with everything except the 2ndary skills part.
MDC

[markc]

I just houseruled that elves age at roughly the same rate as humans up to puberty, slowing afterward until the aging process effectively stops at around age 25. So okay, starting age is roughly the same as for humans.

As for trying to balance the immortality... I don't see it as an advantage. How many adventurers, of any race, ever live to be old? I consider it a moot point.

 I do about the same except aging stops anywhere from 19-35.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

I start Elves at 25, which is still rather slow development, but a lot more plausible than 75.

 25th level? Rather than 75th level?
MDC

Years. For first level. Plus any TP time (+50% for Elves).

[RandalThor]

Sure it is, if you buy the idea that a 7 or 8 year old kid would be that experienced. Generally I tend not to think they'd be that far along at that age.

In a world where you have to grow up fast, you do so.....or you don't grow up at all. I would dare to imagine that the average 7-8 year old in the middle ages was a far cry more wise than their modern counterparts.

The point is for the GM and players to have them as an available resource if the situation calls for them. People don't spring full grown from their parent's foreheads except in Greek mythology.

No, but then we aren't generally starting our characters out at birth now are we?

As carpenters are fond of saying, you can always saw more off that board, but it's tough to make it longer once you've gotten it too short. In the same way you can always start a character at higher than the minimum, but lower than the minimum gets kind of strange. For that reason, I tend to think the minimum skill/experience you can put on a character sheet should be what you'd expect at the minimum age/experience you could ever see a kid operating independently of his parents and surviving.

Which is why it makes more sense to have them higher level than lower, it is easier to then portray even younger street urchins, or those that did not have to grow up so fast. Which, in turn, means that the average "starting level" of a character in the early-to-mid-teens would/should be even higher.

Which is what? 6 maybe? Wolf boy, 4? Kids aren't my strong point, I won't claim to know. I'm pretty sure it's younger and greener than "1st level young adult" though.

Of course, the situation (and the individual) will dictate, but 4-6 is not unheard of.

which should at least teach you a lot about the effects of drunkenness, the psychology of drunks, and a fair amount of botanical trivia.

Except that they may not even be caring about that much. It is perfectly possible to get drunk and smell flowers for years while learning very little about either that you could use -except while drunk. While in Japan in the USMC, I got really good at reading Japanese for navigating the subway system, but only while intoxicated. While sober, I was just no good. 

More than anything, I'd say the discussion demonstrates that the level system isn't always a happy match with the skill system.

I agree, which is why I like the idea that the level should be dependent upon the skills and not the other way around. Sort of like how Earthdawn does it, where you get a certain number of skills (talents, actually) up to a certain rank and then you are the next level (circle) and can now choose from that next circles talents. Of course, magic is an intricate part of the setting, so they have it that you much be a certain circle in order to get a certain talent in a certain profession, so making it a little more free-form is more work. Which is why I think HARP is a better fit for this than RM (any incarnation), with its skills only having 2 costs: Favored=2 DP, and Unfavored=4 DP. You can have it by the number of DPs or the number of ranks, each has its positives and negatives. I am not sure which way I will go with it yet.

[Marc R]

LOL, drunken Japanese train navigation (-100 used sober).

[VladD]

On Elves: The reason why Elves can be immortal and not be level 100+ after surviving 2 or 3 ages, is because their lifes are ruled by Fate/ Doom, since they are modeled after Tolkien's world. Being tied to Fate means they have a predefined route, even though it doesn't feel like that to them, so their life was written before the First Age in the song of creation and the Power spirits are not in any way restricted to time, so some elves come to adulthood soon and others stay children forever, just playing and having fun, until the time comes to do their part and then the sea longing replaces play and fun.

[yammahoper]

Elves...all that time to learn is also a lot of tme to forget.

Skill goes away if not practised or exercised with some regularity.

[providence13]

Elves...all that time to learn is also a lot of tme to forget.

Skill goes away if not practised or exercised with some regularity.

You know, elves should have a chance to forget skills if not used in a few score years.
I guess it could apply to everyone, but elves live longest.

The chance could be modified by SD, Me ...  Starting characters could keep this mind. If you don't use (develop Ranks in) certain skills, you could lose Ranks, the skill could change from Occupational to Everyman, or Normal. Maybe just forget the skill altogether.

Sure it's another added complexity, but we could make a chart for it.

[yammahoper]

In my experience, starting at level one means a GM must provide a level one setting.

We all know game worlds are big places, and players can rub elbows with level 20 lords as easily as fellow low level schmucks.  However, regardless of level, players want to be somebody of some importance and be able to survive.  This requires some spe3cial care on behalf of the GM.

My favorite way to create this is to operate the campaign out of their home village or town.  I create the town, the families in it, the loca lords, the temples, churches, etc, the militia, any ruins or monuments from the ancient days, surrounding farms and local hamlets, then stretch out to the nearest other towns, typically leading to a provincial capital (the big city).

The game starts with an important event that officially declared the PC's as adults.  Last adventure took place in Northern Jaiman with a village of Haid.  The players, at 15 years old, were entered into the militia.  A summer of training, then back to thier normal lives, with militia duty being on demand and one month a year of training.  There was four players; Linda became the apprentice lay healer/mentalist, one took up his fathers tradition of armsmaster, one scout/outrider and one fighter/soldier.

Enough specifics.  The setting allowed the low level PC's to intereact withtheir culture, families, religion, politics, wilderness, a growing darkness in the wood, missions for the militia, etc.  They had opportunity to gain recognition and increase social standing (and lose it).  It was the culture and community that provided the low level PC's the support network they needed to survive and succeed, something higher level PC's can often do without.

I've met many GM's that worry low level PC's cant afford healing.  A community will have the resources to offer healing and the motive to give it free, or very cheap.

Even so PC's will leave the game.  I had one marry, another crippled and one death.  New characters did not come in at level one.  The lay healer, right after hitting level seven, was obligated to to see the king and accept a position (which is when two followed but one decided to retire/marry).  At this point the game stepped up a power notch.

I have no problem at starting at level one, but it requires a certain approach that does not include sheltering the PC's from all higher level threats, but rather providing a setting that lets them have level one type adventures.

[Marc R]

I agree. . .typical level 1 adventure types all share a few characteristics when I run them:

The PCs are not out in the middle of nowhere half a mile underground when the excrement hits the propeller blade. . .they are close enough to get backup, or to retreat for help.

Like, for instance:

as junior members of the Order of Inquiry, they remain inside the capitol city, operating out of the Hall of Inquiry. . .they have silver whistles around their necks, which will summon the town watch or other OOI agents who hear it. . .and is loud enough to be heard in a few block radius.

They are given orders "Someone is breaking into houses in the north section of town, and selling the stolen goods in the south side of town, track down the fences while the other team is working to back track the thieves.

Assuming they don't precipitate anything foolish, in the final section of this first module the party adventures in climaxes in a strike on two warehouses down near the docks. . .the 5 PCs and another 10 agents of the OOI, backed up by two platoons of the town watch take down the burglary ring in their HQ.

The PCs might get into fights with these organized criminals at any time, but help is always just a whistle (or GM fiat) away. . .three of the five party members are KOed and the bad guys are about to TPK the group? Some town watch come yelling down the street with their truncheons ready.

There are as many variations of the above as campaigns, but as long as "Backup arrives" is a logical non GM railroading deus ex machina the players will not object, and over time that seems to be the single best way to let 1st level PCs get their feet wet without having 90% fatality rates weed them out on their way to 5th.

In brief: Have combat backup close enough to save the day make sense rather than feel like the GM pulling strings and have a hospital or healer close enough to drag a PC with a tied off 5/round bleed to.

OTOH, if a 1st level PC eats a 00 "Shot penetrates eyes and destroys brain" the GM is going to need to make the call on if they're going to stick with the mortality rate built into the game or fudge that result.

[yammahoper]

Sometimes though 00's are fun.

Much as your adventure, I had a raid on a farm house/barn.  The Druid fumbles his easy mnv to vault the wall and breaks his leg before the group even crosses the field to get to the house, 1/5th of the strike force down and ALL there spelld for hiding and stalking.  Abort mission, come back next night, party bust messenger/currier, druid reads scroll instead of bringing it to HQ as ordered, is scroll of Iron Heart...scratch one party.