Topic: HARP Spellcasters Overpowered?

[Cory Magel]

"catastrophic success" would be a bigger source of jitters than "catastrophic failure".

Ah, yes. We had a demon summoner in a game once that would occasionally summon a demon he could not control.  No matter what level of his progression there was always a chance he would summon a demon he could not control. As we gained levels and he was able to control higher and higher level demons, so when he summoned one he couldn't control they were pretty nasty. The final culmination of that problem was when we were being hunted down by another 'adventure group' hired by the bad guys and they jumped us in a tavern. We all knew the demon summoner was doing his thing and when he said "Uh oh" we all instantly fled for the nearest exit (front door, kitchen, a window, etc). He had summoned a NAMED demon. We would have tried to pin it on our foes... but it was unneeded as there was nothing left of the town.

Now, could you imagine catastrophic healing?  "Um, sorry about that. In healing your arm I was rather successful and, well, you seem to have grown an extra one..."

[GrumpyOldFart]

Now, could you imagine catastrophic healing?  "Um, sorry about that. In healing your arm I was rather successful and, well, you seem to have grown an extra one..."

Or worse yet, have it be a permanent effect. In stress situations, you are subject to growing extra body part(s) without warning. The greater the stress, the greater the likelihood, so when something has been severed, it's a near certainty. You become a human hydra, but with no real control over what you get, or what level of stress triggers it. For example, it could get really bad when running for your life to suddenly sprout 3 extra legs. Make an Absurd maneuver...

I just think that if you want a "low magic feel", where spellcasters are at best worried about, if not actually hunted down and such... well then the magic system should reflect a reason why that is so. Cultural oddities such as persecuting people with unique skills don't just spring from nowhere.

One of the things I've played with is a "scientific basis for magic", if you will. The idea was to postulate that magic was inherent in quantum mechanics, and the "many worlds" theory. The power source of magic is simply having the inside of your head occupy a different reality from the outside, making power flow between the differing potentials. In short, successful spellcasting requires the caster to be able to intentionally render himself clinically insane in a very precise manner for the duration of the casting. The more interior and exterior reality differ, and the longer you can force them to remain so, the more power you have at your disposal. Obviously the hazard is making sure the reality you come back to when the casting ends is the one you left. Thus the idea of incorporating some variation on Sanity checks into magic use.

But of course, the long term hazard of this is that the longer someone has been a spellcaster and the more power he has, the more likely he is at some point to become extremely dangerous to everyone around him with little or no warning. Suddenly the reason why the wizard lives way outside of town and sends his servants to do his shopping doesn't need explaining.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Another thing I've considered was separating PP Development into 3 different skills. Personal Mana users develop their PPs through sheer chutzpah (Concentration Skill - Biochemical Response Control), Granted Mana users develop their PPs as a function of diplomacy (Influence Skill - Divine Influence), and Ambient Mana users develop their PPs as a Scientific Skill {imported the skill category from HARP SF} (Scientific Skill - Thaumatology). Fixed mana users don't use their own PPs, they use components and just follow the recipe. If they have their own form of PP Development, it'd be along the lines of Cookery. But "miscasting" would doubtless have worse consequences than leftovers no one wants to eat.

 

[RandalThor]

I was thinking of doing PP a little differently, as well. A spellcaster has 2 types of PP to use: Personal, those stored within their own bodies (so to speak), and Ambient, the essence energy inherent in the world around them.

Their personal power pool tends to be small (in relation to hwo it is done currently), but these points can be used quickly and easily. [Like the normal rules, as they are now.]

Ambient essence is vast, but takes a long time to gather and focus to use for a spell, so it is much better for rituals and times in which you have plenty of time to cast the spell.

Of course, limiters and such - for both types of energy - are handled by the level of spellcasting ability they have.

[GrumpyOldFart]

What actually started me on splitting them up was feeling like okay, the game assumes that magic exists, and that its usage conforms to Scientific Method, that is it's consistent and predictable, X actions under Y circumstances produce Z result, every time.

That being the case, and humans being an available character race within the game, I considered it a foregone conclusion that somewhere, someone is studying the scientific basis for magical power, and defining it in terms of "this is how natural laws operate in this aspect of our environment". From there, "Scientific Skill - Thaumatology" as a source of spellcasting ability seemed like something I couldn't leave out without destroying the internal "backstory logic" of the entire thing.

[jurasketu]

"I don't have the power to do this" isn't the worry, "I don't have the skill to be certain it'll go the way I planned" is the worry.

One of the things that annoys me is that cantrips have the same fumble chance as an epic long door...

SO... In our game...

The fumble chance of a spell or spell-like magic items is determined by the number of power points expended or represented as follows. For spells costing 5 PP or less – the number of PP is the fumble chance 1-5%. Then add 1% for each additional 5 PP (rounding up). Example: A 24 PP spell would have 9% fumble chance.

[Thom @ ICE]

Very simplistic solution.... I like that.
What concerns me is that the 20th level mage has the same chance of fumbling as the 1st level mage. Do you have any consideration for the caster's ranks in the spell, or their overall level?

[RandalThor]

The fumble chance of a spell or spell-like magic items is determined by the number of power points expended or represented as follows. For spells costing 5 PP or less – the number of PP is the fumble chance 1-5%. Then add 1% for each additional 5 PP (rounding up). Example: A 24 PP spell would have 9% fumble chance.

OK, I get the reasoning, but I am with Thom (Do you perchance wear a multi-colored, patched cloak?  ) that there needs to be a way to mitigate this. But, if there is, why not go with the idea that they learn it as they get better (i.e. increasing their skill ranks), so you get a push. I think that it should just remain as it is, with only increasing the fumble chance for overcasting or when casting a spell not from a base sphere.

[jurasketu]

Well... My thinking is that big, powerful spells are inherently way more dangerous than cantrips or simple spells. For overcasting (which I don't allow in my game), if I did, I would probably add 1% fumble chance for EACH overcast powerpoint.

I also use the power points of the spell to modify the fumble outcome (more power points - the more likely a harmful outcome). BTW - don't use the HacknSlash critical charts for resolving fumbles - way too deadly for mere fumbles.

So, the spellcasters in my game are encouraged to deploy spells carefully and with more cunning rather than just blasting away with maximized bolts and balls at the first sign of trouble. I also discourage indiscriminate use of spells by always having the possibility if not certainty of "followup encounters" in the course of adventuring. Players can't be assured of having plenty of time to recover power points between encounters - forcing more tactical spell use and holding points in reserve.

On the other hand... I understand the feeling that the more experienced spellcaster should have a reduced chance or at least less harm from the fumble. Certainly, the fumble resolution method of subtracting a D100+ from the resolution roll when a fumble occurred would clearly advantage the highly skilled spellcaster and result in fewer "actual" fumbles. Additionally, I would think it unobjectionable to reduce the given fumble chance by 1% per 10 ranks in the spell rounded down - even reducing the chance of fumble to zero. That seems like a nice idea actually. If I have 30 ranks in Minor Healing - I probably OUGHT to be able to cast it error-free every time...

Robin

[GrumpyOldFart]

One of the things I've done to put "advantage for being highly skilled" back into fumbles, and I've done this not only on spells but on all skills...

Say someone's skill total is... +50. They make a skill roll, get a natural 02. Okay, roll again and subtract. They roll... say, a 75. Okay, so 02, -75 = -73, +50 for skill = -23. In other words it's just like any other open ended roll, rather than "you fumbled, so suddenly none of your bonuses count on this roll." The original 02 counts. The original skill total you would have added in to the roll anyway, still counts. The only thing that changed was that your open ended d100 landed you in negative numbers, therefore the result will be on the table for negative results (fumbles). If you had +50 total bonus, rolled the 02, and then followed it with a 31, then 02-31=-29, +50=21, no fumble.

In short, 01-05 isn't a fumble per se, it's just an open-ended low that may put you into the fumbles.

Did that make sense, or am I being so unclear as to be confusing?

[Kasdaye]

That does make sense. We've also discussed various other ways to modify fumble ranges in another thread, there were plenty of good ideas in there too .

I like the idea of different magical settings. In our campaign world we have 2 major empires on one of the continents. The Wolf Coast & The Scarlett Empire (Can't remember where I stole those names from!)

The Wolf coast is a capitalist culture that uses magic combined with technology to drive industry etc. The magic levels in the country are normal, and mages are usually members of "schools" and seen as academics. Magic itself is seen as a natural force that can be manipulated and understood through careful experimentation (of course, there is always the occasional mage who's "experimentation" involves screaming, blood, and doing strange things to animals at midnight on the sabbath etc... but that's people for you!)

In the Scarlett empire the magical field is higher, and Mages tend to be more powerful. The country operates as a feudal system under the  rule of a God Emperor (Who is actually a suprisingly nice guy for a despot). The upper classes are all magically gifted and are a law unto themselves. They believe magic to be in their (superior) blood and that mere peasants are on the same level as animals! If someone outside of a noble family shows signs of magic, then they will be taken from their family and drafted into the army. Any who fail to become a combat mage will be collared and given to a noble family as a magical slave.

Anyway, the reason I'm rambling on about this is because in the middle of these two nations is the Valmar desert, which was scarred by mage wars and has an incredibly unstable magical field. When the PC's were travelling into that desert there were many cases of "critical success"! We made any magical  roll over 90 a major success, and the higher the overall roll the more exotic the scaling! Any fumble (1-10) meant that a random spell was cast (at a random target) from whichever sphere the mage was using. Failing to cast spells was pretty much impossible!

This lead to some interesting battles \ effects!