Topic: The Basics All Characters Know (in-game argument)

[Right Wing Wacko]

2. The actual identification in Star Wars of the fighter was as "a short-range fighter" which implies that there are long-ranged fighters that could be found far from any base.

Then why not equip ALL fighters with hyperdrive?
The X-wing is really rather small, and if it can contain a hyperdrive, why can't all ships?

*shrug*
I'm not trying to argue, just talkin'...

[markc]

2. The actual identification in Star Wars of the fighter was as "a short-range fighter" which implies that there are long-ranged fighters that could be found far from any base.

Then why not equip ALL fighters with hyperdrive?
The X-wing is really rather small, and if it can contain a hyperdrive, why can't all ships?

*shrug*
I'm not trying to argue, just talkin'...

 I would think $$$$$$ would be the answer there. Or maybe the Empire just wanted to keep and eye on everyone so did not place hyper drives in small ships or small military ships. ie reduce the populaces ability to move around freely and confine them to smaller areas.
 But I am just guessing and I have no idea at all.


MDC

[Marc R]

Tie fighter is 6.3 meters long, the central sphere is about 1/2 that. . .Cutting off the "wings" the Ship part is a 3 meter sphere.

X-wing is 16 meters long, cut off the wings and along the long axis is a cylinder that averages more than 3m d. .

So an x-wing is roughly 5x the internal volume of a tie. . .it should be expected to contain about 5x as much stuff. . .namely a hyper drive, Shields, a boatload of life support and space for a 2nd (droid) crewmember.

Cost likely is one factor, paranoia and control another, but the tie is also sickly fast and maneuverable. . .better be, since it has no shields and a couple hits turn it to confetti. . .plenty of modern fighter concepts based around that logic. . . .and if you don't care much about your clone crews, stamping out cheap, quick, dangerous fighters might be the way to go. (IIRC before Luke or Lando go and blow the death star up, mostly the rebels were getting their butts kicked.)

The latter Tie defender added shields, and the Tie Advanced added a Hyperdrive and a little more life support, but that made these ships a lot larger (and likely more expensive). Vader is flying the prototype of the Tie Advanced in A New Hope (Explaining how after he regained control of his ship, after the rebels had blown the death star up and controlled the system, he was able to bug out and escape. . .then again, mr mostly robot doesn't need much life support.). . .unlike the clone pilots, Vader wasn't expendable.

[yammahoper]

I always assumed the death star was in constant contact with its master and when it blew up, an armada arrived shortly, picking up vader and forcing the rebels to flee.

I like all the technical details.  I have always considered SW to be the ultimate Space Opera and never gave the tech much thought (though I had a Star Wars Technical manual that reinforced my perceptions).

I like opera with a good twist of grit, like the old Space master universe and the new SM.  Is SW the game really good?  The one I played (as a PC) in the late 80's left me wanting.

[Usdrothek]

Cost and mass production. A TIE fighter doesn't even have any life support.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Ahhhh...
I see I am lacking in my Star Wars lore!

OK, fair enough.
 

[providence13]

The third point is certainly something worth laying out to the group the next time. We have a tendency to just do things rather than actually find out if it's possible or if it's something we understand. []

I don't recall if SW has a Difficulty Rating scale or not. I only played a few times and wasn't terribly sold on that campaign.

I've been trying to get my RMFRP players to wait for a Difficulty before grabing dice..
"Hey ScreenMonkey! I'm gonna blah, blablah. Then I'm gonna....---grabs dice--"

"Would you like to roll the dice because of the neat sound OR be cognizant of the Difficulty for that Maneuver and therefore have a chance?"

If players just grab and drop dice assuming that the roll will count then the GM can assume the players are taking their chances with fate.
"Yes, that was a good roll. For an Easy or even Hard Maneuver, that would have worked. But what you thought was dressed stone and filigree was actually the mucous trails of slugs living behind the loose stones. When you tried to climb the wall, the stones held only long enough for you to really hurt yourself in the fall.."

I'm gonna try this Sunday! 

[DavidKlecker]

One thing that still gets me today was why it was such a big issue to this player. In a sense I was ready to hear the GM basically say it's not possible. The technology is too complex. Okay. No problem. But this player, the minute I stated the action became rather arrogant and belittling over it as if I the player should feel as stupid as possible for thinking of it and that I as a player need to be educated on the rules of the system. I get rather defensive when a player turns on their superiority as if they have a badge on the subject so what should have been a yes/no thing turned into bedlam.

He has a tendency to make that happen. Actually, he tends to do that a lot with me. It makes it very hard to game with him and almost next to impossible to GM him.

[providence13]

People with insecurities do the darndest things..
I know nothing about your game, but it still sounds familiar.

All the people I game with come to the table for different reasons.
Somehow, this guy has determined/settled on/been rewarded that this is the reason he comes to the game. How do we convince him that belittling kibitzing and morale breaking is contrary to the reason everyone else shows up?

1) Payback: Doing it to him may not work. These people generally won't look in the mirror and may just foster a free-for-all game killer. And while the rest of the group has expected it from him, you may be judged more harshly because it's out of character for you.
This is up there with passing the GM a note that says "HI" every time the creep does it. If he's not paranoid, he will be.

2) Backup: Have you talked with the GM/other players? I'm sure you guys all know each other pretty well. Who knows if this will help. Never hurts to try. You may not be the only one who doesn't appreciate his attitude.

3) Leverage: Who's house/game-site is it? "So-and-So is being a ***k! I don't have fun and I my MechWarrior stuff is in the car!"

4) Diplomacy: "Are you enjoying the current campaign? Maybe we should team up to accomplish a mutual goal.."

5) Ego Stroking: "You didn't look happy with that last rule call. If you were GM, how would you have handled scenario XYZ?"
 The real deep hurt guys may just brush you off. The attention seekers will wax loquacious about their wisdom in past calls. Listen to him out of game. 'Could be all he needs.

6) Cleanse by Fire: Vote him out of the group. Burn his character sheet. You could just let them know that he sucks. Let him know that he sucks. Each time he does his shtick, he's wasting game time. Disrespecting everyone at the table. Good gamers are worth keeping, bad ones can play in other people's games. 

[markc]

  Maybe he had some big plan that you messed up by hitting the hyper-drive. Maybe he planed on you being boarded and other stuff to happen after that.
  Of course I could by just paranoid also or thinking about every option.



MDC

[pastaav]

Seriously...is there nobody that think he simply might simply have had a bad day? The best roleplayer can become edgy if they happen to think about something bad outside the game.

If it is a single occurrence then there is no sense with viewing it as some conspiracy. To retaliate back in the game when you GM is even more senseless, gaming should be about having fun.

If this something that happens repeatedly I suggest that you start with hanging out with the fellow outside the game. If you talk to each other you are pretty sure to get clues about what the problem is. Talking about old campaigns you have participated in together is probably a good way to improve the mood if the player is hard to talk to.   

[DavidKlecker]

Seriously...is there nobody that think he simply might simply have had a bad day? The best roleplayer can become edgy if they happen to think about something bad outside the game.

If it is a single occurrence then there is no sense with viewing it as some conspiracy. To retaliate back in the game when you GM is even more senseless, gaming should be about having fun.

If this something that happens repeatedly I suggest that you start with hanging out with the fellow outside the game. If you talk to each other you are pretty sure to get clues about what the problem is. Talking about old campaigns you have participated in together is probably a good way to improve the mood if the player is hard to talk to.

Oh no. He did not have a bad day. This is VERY typical behavior.

[RandalThor]

Actually, he tends to do that a lot with me. It makes it very hard to game with him and almost next to impossible to GM him.

This is familiar to me:

A long time ago, in a city far, far away (Melbourne, Florida), I was in a gaming group that had this problem. One of the players just couldn't keep themselves from belittling/bullying another player - not anyone else, just that player, for some reason (the target of the belittling didn't do anything that I could see to warrant such behaviour, he wasn't the brightest bulb in the socket, but he was basically a good guy. I will take a nice, dumb person over a smart, vicious one anyday). Basically, when it is like that the only way to deal with it is to not play with the belittler/bully. Either they have to go, or whatever.

[dutch206]

Have you ever looked in the cockpit of a modern aircraft in real life?  All those readouts, buttons, levers, and switches would be completely bewildering to someone with no ranks in a piloting skill.  In Rolemaster terms, I would make that an untrained maneuver with an absurd chance of success.

[markc]

Have you ever looked in the cockpit of a modern aircraft in real life?  All those readouts, buttons, levers, and switches would be completely bewildering to someone with no ranks in a piloting skill.  In Rolemaster terms, I would make that an untrained maneuver with an absurd chance of success.

 Yes but Star Wars like Star Trek the Next Gen has single push one button technology! Or so I am told.
MDC

[Marc R]

It's a bit more complicated on both ends, it just seems that way because the people are skilled. . .seems to be a damned lot of buttons on the bridge of the enterprise, even having watched them use the controls a lot, I wouldn't want to try flying it (if it were real, of course).

A bit easier in SW, in that you could technically let the astromech droid do all the work, then wait for the Jump to Hyper button to start blinking and punch it. . .but without the droid doing the donkey work it doesn't seem all that casual.

Then again, what is being discussed above is "crash jumping". . .ala just hit the button and pray. . .that question devolves to how much safety you bothered to install in the cockpit. . .

Like, if it's just a button anyone can push, no password, no lock, no preflight set up required. . . then don't complain when that passenger goes crazy, runs into the cockpit and slaps the hyperjump button. I would assume on many ships it would be locked out without a set up procedure, and at bare minimum it would be a button with a flap cover over it or one of those "you must press a button on each arm of the chair at the same time" things so you don't accidentally set your coffee mug down on it and hyperjump into a star.

[markc]

Like, if it's just a button anyone can push, no password, no lock, no preflight set up required. . . then don't complain when that passenger goes crazy, runs into the cockpit and slaps the hyperjump button. I would assume on many ships it would be locked out without a set up procedure, and at bare minimum it would be a button with a flap cover over it or one of those "you must press a button on each arm of the chair at the same time" things so you don't accidentally set your coffee mug down on it and hyperjump into a star.

    But would the above not take all of the fun out of it? 


 As I said above I understand both sides of the argument.


MDC

[RandalThor]

It's a bit more complicated on both ends, it just seems that way because the people are skilled. . .seems to be a damned lot of buttons on the bridge of the enterprise, even having watched them use the controls a lot, I wouldn't want to try flying it (if it were real, of course).

A bit easier in SW, in that you could technically let the astromech droid do all the work, then wait for the Jump to Hyper button to start blinking and punch it. . .but without the droid doing the donkey work it doesn't seem all that casual.

I would say that there were far more buttons and such on the Millenium Falcon - many of which seemed very random in placement and purpose. But...

Then again, what is being discussed above is "crash jumping". . .ala just hit the button and pray. . .that question devolves to how much safety you bothered to install in the cockpit. . .

Like, if it's just a button anyone can push, no password, no lock, no preflight set up required. . . then don't complain when that passenger goes crazy, runs into the cockpit and slaps the hyperjump button. I would assume on many ships it would be locked out without a set up procedure, and at bare minimum it would be a button with a flap cover over it or one of those "you must press a button on each arm of the chair at the same time" things so you don't accidentally set your coffee mug down on it and hyperjump into a star.

I think the real issue was: "Why did you step on my foot? I didn't want you to step on my foot." Rather than" "Could character X without skill Y even do that?" Anyway, in SW this is just another opportunity for the GM to insert special adventure in a place the PCs didn't know about/weren't going to go to on their own/whatever. The game doesn't lend itself to dealing with the nitty-gritty, it is more of a big-picture RPG, so don't get all: "I set super intricate security protocols in my drive comp programming..." Thas is not what SW is about. It's about: "Go full speed through the tight, twisting corridors of doooommmmmm.....faster, faster. Now, shoot!" (At least for me. If I want gritty sci-fi I will play Spacemaster or Traveller, or, heck, even Alternity.)

[Marc R]

Well, it's not quite "insert technobabble here" science like Trek, that could as easily be "ahbrah kadabrah!". . . .

Han and Chewie are always down under the deck with tools falling on their heads as the ship bumps around.

I tend to concur on that issue, if only because generally my answer for "how do you hyperjump?" would be:

"Artoo! Jump us out of here" and let the droid make the roll. Who in their right mind would learn 4 dimensional hypermath when you can buy a slave droid to do the annoying post doctoral math for you, and take all the crap for hypering you into some strange spot?

"Hey, it was the droid, not me."

[RandalThor]

See, when I played Star Wars I didn't worry about who-did-what and all that, it was about excitement and adventure and sometimes you screwed up which gave you more excitement and adventure. (Not the, "you are all dead because you messed up ONCE" - which seems to be way games today are handling things.) The droids can't do everything for you.....

What about this (going with an actual scientific/reasonable explanation - like that is needed for Star Wars, HAH!):

If the non-pilot character has been with on this ship and seen the pilot do his thing for a while, sure he could hit the jump button and try to send them into hyperspace, but what is likely to happen is nothing because the computer has their current location as the most recent destination. So, already there = no jump.

I still think that we are acting like modern pharmaceuticals companies and concentrating on the symptoms and not the disease. The real issue here is player attitude and interaction. Deal with that, and the rest cures itself.