Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: egdcltd on January 29, 2016, 05:21:13 AM
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Making an Adventure Path for Shadow World is something that has come up a few times. One problem with doing so is having enough time/ability to create one. So, how about if a number of people try making one?
Possibly the best place to start would be by using one of the following modules:
Demons of the Burning Night
Gethaena Underearth Emer
Islands of the Oracle
Kingdom of the Desert Jewel
Quellbourne: Land of the Silver Mist
These can all, as far as I know, be modified by GCP without any problems. Another option would be The Iron Wind. Kingdom of the Desert Jewel would likely be the most difficult, due to Alliance influence in the general area.
Should one be successfully modified into an AP, it would then need to be seen if GCP would be interested in publishing it. Actually, it would be helpful to know this upfront.
This would be quite a major piece of work, even for several people. Making an AP at about the standard Paizo size would mean expanding the content from an existing module manyfold - such as around six times.
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The "crowdsourcing" idea is a difficult one to pull off. I have done it with several projects and it can work and work well. I worked with the Living Greyhawk project when 3rd ed had just came out and we had some success. Here are some things I learned during the project.
1) A defined set of rules need to be established early. This will define the tone and level structure for the project. Since this is a series of interlinked modules it is assumed that the difficulty level increases slowly over the modules life.
2) NPC Control - what are the NPCs in the arc and are they perpetual. Each one that is perpetual required a defined background and motivation status.
3) Overall Arc outline - This needs to be defined and agreed upon.
I would love this to go forward. I bought The Iron Wind when it first came out (Yes, I am that old). So it would be nostalgic to rework that into a AP. It was rough and could easily be polished into a AP, since were was very little detail.
-BP
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I like the idea of expanding/finishing the Grand Campaign. Terry could write some rough plot notes, sections could be broken up among participants and each section would be more modest (ie more achievable) than lengthy fleshed out modules. Plus the GC could track along with the SW books Terry is writing, creating a dual-property media project.
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If all involved were agreeable then it looks like there might be a rough plan.
-BP
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Yes, a set of rules upfront would be vital. Everything would need carefully considering first. Another factor would be the intention to make the finished work saleable, so some means of tracking individual contributors progress and input would need to be agreed at the beginning.
The Iron Wind could do with being brought up to the present day, SW time, which would be quite major in itself. Terry is reluctant to do this himself (and may be reluctant to have others do it too).
I had thought of the Grand Campaign, but I guess it didn't make it's way out of my head - or I forgot it overnight.
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I'm all for the project. I'd want some minimal editorial control so that it didn't get too non-SW.
You are right; I am reluctant about IW. Most of it was written by Pete, and some by Olivia. While some of Pete's concepts have made it into SW, I would be reluctant to go in and revise much of their material—or have anyone else do it. (And I seriously doubt that either would be interested in updating their own material.)
The Grand Campaign, on the other hand, is fine with me; have at it! Actually the PDF does have very minimal notes for the 2nd and 3rd books. Very minimal. I'd be happy to try to help fill in the gaps, but it was written almost 25 years ago…
And before you get too excited, Nicholas would need to approve it—though he is eager to get more SW material out. He is unfortunately unavailable for the next week or so.
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I'm interested as well- but reluctant until RMU is complete. I believe that RMU & SW must be intertwined in a product like this. To be effective the product must be used to demonstrate as many rules of RMU as possible; acting as a playable walk-through in some ways.
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I think that you could get a lot of work done though before you got to the point where you would definitely need to start integrating game mechanics.
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Terry,
I doubt anyone here is chomping at the bit to sit down and write tonight. I thin if Nicholas gives permission for this project to go forward the group (who ever they may be) would need to come up with a plan and then a schedule. Is there anywhere in the SW that is not too explored (forgive my ignorance). and we could run a AP of 1-5 level?
-BP
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I took a look at the Grand Campaign last night, and there would be a couple of problems if it was to be started on immediately. Actually, it's the same problem repeated several times. Various places visited in the campaign as it stands are where there are sourcebooks in development - Lethys, Haalkitaine, and I think the new Jaiman area that Terry is working on. If the campaign was to be continued, those parts of it that overlap would need to match up with whatever is in those, currently unreleased, sourcebooks (although there is the old version of Haalkitaine).
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I took a look at the Grand Campaign last night, and there would be a couple of problems if it was to be started on immediately. Actually, it's the same problem repeated several times. Various places visited in the campaign as it stands are where there are sourcebooks in development - Lethys, Haalkitaine, and I think the new Jaiman area that Terry is working on. If the campaign was to be continued, those parts of it that overlap would need to match up with whatever is in those, currently unreleased, sourcebooks (although there is the old version of Haalkitaine).
I'd be happy to work with the authors to resolve any potential conflicts. And realistically, the Haalkitaine revision is a ways off...
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So, what is the exact goal of this potential project? A SW/RMU integrated product that will introduce players to RMU and SW simultaneously?
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So, what is the exact goal of this potential project? A SW/RMU integrated product that will introduce players to RMU and SW simultaneously?
That would be exciting, and I bet Nicholas et al would love it.
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Well, I'd originally just thought of it as being a means to update some existing material and develop it into a form that is now rather widely known. But introducing RMU/SW would be good.
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I think finishing GC and adapting to RMU is a great idea!
1. Its mostly fleshed out and ties into Terry's novel.
2. The GC touches on all the meta threads of SW and encapsulates the "flavor" of the setting. (Quellborne feels like D&D)
3. GC hits all the great locations of SW that Terry has written: Jaiman and Emer.
4. Highly cinematic, going from "low fantasy" to "high fantasy".
5. If finished, would represent HOURS of game play--"add-on" side adventures could be built in later
6. Taps into the current mixed-genre game setting popularity.
7. Being a contained adventure path, with pre-gen characters will be a great intro to RMU. (Like the original dd: "A" series) btw matt converted lthose to RM a few years back.
A few other thoughts on process
1. Create a private thread for contributors
2. Open outline for fleshing out path details
3. Assign chapters to individual authors
4. Terry/nicholas approval throughout
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I do have one concern in that the Grand Campaign might just be a little too epic for a first project. Regarding the science fiction elements of the setting, how would they be handled with RMU? Previously, they were Spacemaster, but I think it's going to be a while before there's RMU Spacemaster.
I wouldn't necessarily just assign one person to a chapter. There are quite a few different projects, not just adventures, that would go into creating a path. Paizo often use them to introduce new locations. Keifers Landing appears in both the Grand Campaign and Quellbourne, so that could be developed out into a more fleshed-out location, as it's currently quite minimalistic (one thing I don't like in Quellbourne is the Ice Krals; they are too reminiscent of D&D's habit of introducing brand new intelligent species that are never seen elsewhere and lack a viable breeding population).
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Grand Campaign is ambitious to start with... it has SF elements? I don't remember. I agree with egdcltd about Quellbourne, though there are other races in SW where a race is isolated to a few locations.
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I'm not actually sure if GC has scifi elements or not without taking a longer look at it, but it seems quite likely it may have, if not now then by the time its completed, if the intent is to introduce the full depth of Shadow World.
The Saurkaur (probably not spelled right) from Islands of the Oracle are similarly limited in location to the Ice Krals, but there's a good reason for that, which is explained, and makes sense. As do the Krylites, for similar reasons.
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I'm not actually sure if GC has scifi elements or not without taking a longer look at it, but it seems quite likely it may have, if not now then by the time its completed, if the intent is to introduce the full depth of Shadow World.
The Saurkaur (probably not spelled right) from Islands of the Oracle are similarly limited in location to the Ice Krals, but there's a good reason for that, which is explained, and makes sense. As do the Krylites, for similar reasons.
(slightly O/T) Working on Emer IV, I am also finally getting to detail some actual cultures of a couple of odd races I put in Atlas III: the Rasha-ai, and the Synshari.
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Grand Campaign is ambitious to start with... it has SF elements? I don't remember. I agree with egdcltd about Quellbourne, though there are other races in SW where a race is isolated to a few locations.
I agree with Terry. First I think we might look at some new material for the RMU/SW project. The Grand Campaign is VERY ambitious. If we get some good material out there, some of it specifically for the newcomer we might help sales of both RM and SW. I look at the popularity of Pathfinder and ask "Why?"
Looking at it from a non-gamer purely business model the idea was sound. First, they had a known product (The used the 3.5 model) and had a base to draw from for stories. The fan base was able to bring new people in and those people brought in more story ideas. While I have had good and bad experiences in some of the Paizo material, most of it had value.
If we take only an existing project we might lose some of the exposure to new people. The reason for this IMO is that some of the SW material is written at a very high fantasy level. There is no basis for the characters to latch on too. Also in some of the "introductory" material we might need to write instructions for the newby GM. Again IMO.
-BP
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I think maybe the first product should be set in a very small locale that can easily lead to Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn- the newest "module" and perhaps be used as a tool to get PCs from 1-3 level. So, maybe have the adventure center around a hamlet a couple days travel down main road (which I want to say is the Greenway) from Gryphonburgh. That way we can use TftGGI to be the basis of which races, professions, and options are used in the intro stuff. In short this could be a "hook" product to entice purchase. If Jaiman is "owned" and there are no issues with using it's material we can simply expand on one of the mini adventures....
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Now that might be a great idea. I love Tales. It is the type of product that I love as a GM, a LOT of information and some great NPCs. It is a nice introduction to am area and a springboard for other adventures.
-BP
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So that would be less an entire AP, that gets players to either 10th or 20th level (or the RM equivalent) like Paizo's do, and more of a single introductory module or storyline. Which does have the advantage of not being too ambitious.
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Which I think is a lot more attainable goal on a volunteer only basis.....
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Absolutely. Then, if it goes well, move onto more adventurous projects.
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I had a look at Jaiman, and the most suitable adventures would probably be Cult of the Third Moon and The Curse of Andaras. I don't think, as is, they are really suitable for low level characters though.
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I had a look at Jaiman, and the most suitable adventures would probably be Cult of the Third Moon and The Curse of Andaras. I don't think, as is, they are really suitable for low level characters though.
I'd suggest doing something completely new.
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One could start in the Star-Crown Empire and explore off from there. I would generate a low level beginning that is well formatted as I like the module anyway.
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One could start in the Star-Crown Empire and explore off from there. I would generate a low level beginning that is well formatted as I like the module anyway.
I'm not sure if we have the rights to use that.
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No, the author for that is still listed as "missing." Although a couple of authors have been found recently, they are either redeveloping their supplements, or they are being published as-is. I think only those I listed have the rights.
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That is disappointing.... Though you have put a lot of effort into Tanara which may be a way to introduce the dangers of the Dragon Lords.
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If you were to do a low level starter adventure, another location choice would be somewhere in Xa-ar. Don't use the existing adventures, but instead a starter module that could lead into those. See if there are any potential hooks in the supplement.
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Xa'ar would be good too. That and TftGGI are really nice looking books. Quellebourne is great too- but the book isn't as new looking.
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With Quellbourne, the idea (well, mine anyway) would be to overhaul and replace the existing book with a brand new series of books covering the area and expanding on the existing material.
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A low level starter is not an AP, a far cry from it. A full AP is a big undertaking, especially on a volunteer basis, and requires significant coordination across a large number of contributors as BP pointed out. So as has been suggested, a low level starter adventure might be more realistic. However, in that case I don't really see the need for crowdsourcing that, as this can be done by one single individual (well at least the story/plot can and probably should be done by one person and then layouts, maps, character creation, art and editing can be outsourced). An adventure of that kind can be placed almost anywhere, although I like the idea to hook it onto TftGGI the most as TftGGI works almost as the outline of an AP in itself. This would give new people coming into the franchise a clear reason to buy TftGGI and get hooked on SW. I think the Xa-ar suggestion works very well also.
Having said all that, I still like the idea of an AP (at least on a theoretical level :P). Developing an AP is essentially like fully fleshing out a campaign plot. If it was up to me, I would make the AP somewhere in Jaiman/Emer, just to avoid having to develop as much of the surrounding setting thanks to Terry. This would also make it easier to keep participants within a known framework (which makes coordination a fraction easier). Some examples for possible Jaiman/Emer based AP locations:
- Tanara: I think Tanara has a host of great adventure ideas/hooks that could be very suitable for developing into a full long campaign style AP (if that is something Terry would be open to).
- Sanara: It is just the kind of fringe/border setting that lends itself particularly well to an AP. Could lend elements from Xa-ar.
- Meluria: Similar to Sanara and can use Aranmor as part of the AP. Could also blend with elements from the upcoming(?) Lethys sourcebook. Maybe take the PC's to Plasidar.
- Lygaar: Offers endless opportunities for a string of adventures (from jungle exploration to discovering the secret behind Ardania).
- etc.
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Indeed, a starter adventure doesn't need a team (and might actually be easier in some ways without one). However, people's time is limited, and a starter adventure made by a team could be produced faster than a single person working part time. Moreover, this adventure would be more of a test bed to see if the concept works, and then progress upwards to an adventure path. Otherwise, you'd be trying to do a full AP as a first project - and, as has been mentioned, this could be overly ambitious for such a project. Rolemaster doesn't have the freelancer base that Pathfinder does.
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That makes sense egdcltd, and there seems to be sufficient interest here to move forward on this at a test basis. I'm happy to participate and help if needed.
I agree with Witchking20k that intertwining this product with RMU would make a lot of sense, at least for ICE. I would go so far as to suggest to link this product with the game world flavour examples in RMU. Now, I have no idea on RMU, but I assume that it will include game world examples in character creation and to demonstrate how to actions are resolved (like the majority of RPG's rules do). These characters and the generated game world flavour could indeed be part of the starter adventure. This would help introduce both SW and RMU to new gamers (which I assume is the objective for ICE). Just an idea, and as I said I have no idea on how RMU is being developed or if this is something they are planning to do.
I guess that the next thing to do is to get a sign off from Nicholas, decide on scope, resources (incl. participants), timeframe, as well as agree on setting and assign the various tasks including project leadership (someone needs to be managing and coordinating the various tasks or nothing will happen :p).
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Crowd Sourcing Modules for Shadow World would be great.
I agree with BPowell in that it would have to have set rules. So it might be better to wait to crowd source until after RMU is finished? A unified RM/HARP system would allow you guys to make a campaign that would target all RM/HARP/Spacemaster fans and all would benefit. As Shadow World seemed to have tech from Caveman to Spaceman already in it. So all systems could benefit from such a setting.
I think the whole RM community would benefit greatly from a campaign module series that takes players from level 1-50 through Shadow World and possibly Crydaon. With Cryadon having it's own crowd sourced campaigns. So again as BP pointed out the idea should be fleshed out so that you know the world arc for the campaign and that would allow writers to not step on each other's ideas and keep the campaign harmonious in the scheme of things which will ultimately unfold at the end of the campaign. But would still allow tremendous flexibility and creativity in all the separate modules.
If they did each module say in 5 level increments you could do 10 modules. 1-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20,20-25, 25-30, 30-35, 35-40, 40-45, 45-50.
It would just be so refreshing for me, to be able to hand someone a group of RM modules set in a RM world, that hand holds new players/GM's from level 1-50. It would also help so many new players to be able to just jump in and play and not be worried, or panicked by all of RM's rules and flexibility. Instead of RM's classic, you can do this, here's the math and go figure it out yourself ruleset options ::)
In that vane it might also be worth it to make character packs for each module. Say we have the said 10 modules. And say RMU has 50 character classes. You could create 50 characters for each module. New players or those just interested in jumping into a game can say get the first modules pack and just grab a pre-made character of their desired class and jump in. And if the guy who wrote that module created the pack he could preset all the fighting and other skills to benefit a player in that particular module. On top of that magical items, talents, and gear could be set for that module. Greatly increasing the chance new players will like it.
Obviously if the player started in module 1 he would have no need to use a pack in module 2-10. But if the group picks up new players or their character dies you can start to see where character module packs for each module would make great sense. If each module pack had a character for each level/class it would be very valuable for picking up players at any time. Or replacing a dead character without taking any real time and allowing the campaign to keep moving. And this making it much easier for a group to play a full campaign from level 1-50 in a SR world campaign. Remember death happens in RM. Well character packs with all levels would make it if you die at say level 43. You just grab a pre-made character and your ready to go. And 1 of each type means everyone is covered. Even if they want to play the same class or a totally different one. Death will still hurt, but it won't slow down or end the campaign :).
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I like your Idea. The player can still create a new character out of game session but would not loose out during game session due to the character packs.
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I like that too. I was already imagining a MERP 2E-like character set-up where they are pre-made from levels 1-10 so that you can jump in at various levels of game-play.
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I don't think you need to wait for RMU to get started, but yes I would get a formal approval from Nicholas before jumping in. And it need not be unpaid volunteer; there might be some compensation, but Nicholas would decide that.
And of course I would like some kind of basic 'Series Editor' kind of role where I bless the thing at various stages to make sure you're not going off in the wrong direction...
Best of luck! :-)
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I suspect this sort of thing might dovetail very nicely with the debate elsewhere about creating archetypes for RMU professions. You could introduce new 'builds', races, spell lists, optional talents and rules in each module. So, setting a module in a swamp might allow you to incorporate a Swamp-focused Ranger build and a swamp-dwelling race etc.
By 'builds' I have in mind a set of skill & talent purchases (e.g. your Swamp Ranger might have the conditional Prodigy talent for Perception or Tracking at Tier 3 with the conditional modifier "only in swamps"). it would avoid a potential blowout in page count for Character Law and possibly incentivise purchasing the module just that little bit more.
You could go whole hog with some real hand-holding modules (a bit like some of the old TSR ones) taking players from character development, and introductory play to being captains of their own souls, so to speak.
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Just aside, RMU is going to need some introduction and help, and as SW is the official RM world right now it would be great to get started on something like this, even if it were to be a series of small adventures to start and then something larger later on...
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Yes, I don't really think it's necessary to wait until RMU is complete before making a start, as I think that will still take some time (and it might be good if there was a starter module released not long after RMU). For one thing, I think there will be a fair amount of work required just sorting things out before a decision is made on even what to do first. Arranging a team, team communication and file sharing, speaking to Nicholas (I would hope that there would be a saleable product at the end of it for publishing on RPGNow, not just a fan module), seeing what skills people have (especially those who would like to help but aren't really sure how, which includes me).
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I would like to see a starter module for the release as either an addition to the release or a package deal with the release. This would make it easy for someone to pick up the system and jump right in with a module ready to go. It could go far with promoting the product and to introduce players and GM's to a fantastic system with a lower learning curve.
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I think I mentioned that I have a module (one in a series) ready to go once RMU is finalized. I actually have the first three written and the outlines for the last 7. The problem is that I placed it in a non-specific setting. It would need to be reworked t fit into the SW setting.
I wrote it using RMX as a point of entry for new players and GMs. So it might be a bit too basic for players experienced with RM.
-BP
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Too basic or not it will help reinforce the game mechanics to everyone as a sample type of source. It is all good when it comes back to learning a new system. :)
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I agree that ideally RMU should launch simultaneously with an adventure. I would guess that ideally it would be an adventure in SW. This should help promote both the new system and the game world. Like when I bought my first edition boxed set of RM and Vog Mur came with that.
BP, I guess that you should talk to Nicholas regarding your module and series.
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I have been in contact wit Nicolas about it. Is anyone recording their play tests? And are any of then in the SW? I am thinking about running a new play test around the Green Gryphon Inn. I have started to convert material to RMU. Once that is done I could let folks look at it and see if this is good for the module.
-BP
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Hi,
I am back.
I have no objection to a Shadow World Adventure Path. However I would strongly suggest that any individual or team wishing to work on such start with a smaller project such as an adventure module in size and scope such as Green Gryphon.
Feel free to organise yourselves and then we can discuss putting people under contract.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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A starter module leading into the adventures in one of the recent batch of supplements - Emer III, Eidolon, Xa-ar, Green Gryphon and Tanara - would seem to be a good initial choice.
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I like the idea of each module being for a particular level set. While I would not go as high as 50th in the first set of modules. The idea is to look at the new rules and "reboot" the Shadow World (for some). Looking at the Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn, we see some very introductory adventures. I think this is where we start.
If we start small we can always grow. One of the concerns that some have with SW it is for "high level characters". High adventure is not always synonymous with high levels. I am sure the kids (1st levels) are just as pumped saving Mrs McKredies' cat and the older Heroes (30th levels) are about closing the gate to the Pale.
So here is what I see needs to be done for character creation. We generate a series of stock characters (Fighter, Priest, Mage, Rogue, etc). We start at 1st level and create the "character packs". Each new adventure they increase in level (5th, 10th, etc). In the Judges material we give tips and hints on how to modify the characters if necessary (training packages, spell list, etc for increased levels). We also give detailed guidelines on character creation. I would recommend using the Buying Stats rules on pave 39 of Character Law (RMU). This allows all characters to have the same range of stats. This would allow a player that REALLY wants to bring a character to do so.
-BP
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There's an interesting Pathfinder starter module I linked to here originally: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=14130.msg180297#msg180297 (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=14130.msg180297#msg180297)
It's a bit small, but then it is free. Perhaps do something similar, but larger; a group of starting characters in a small village dealing with a local problem. The village itself could be described in more detail, as a complete location, perhaps with some adventure hooks and ideas attached.
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A good starting setting. But that system allows a greater power level at 1st than RM. Trust me a 1st in that system is closer to 5th in RM.
Can we post files to the board? Let me piece together an idea and post it here. We all can the hash it out. I should be able to get an outline/framework done in a day or two (I an gearing up for Genghis Con here in Denver so my time is limited).
Any objections? I will leave it location neutral, mostly because I am a SW neophyte.
-BP
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Yes, files can be uploaded, they just need approving. And there is a power difference at first level (magic missile!), but there's no reason why a starter module has to be 1st level for RMU.
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In my pointed little head I was rolling around 3rd level in the first adventure. Enough time to develop some skills and know something about weapons ("The pointy end goes in the other guy!")
But my idea for the files was to be the setting. A village set on a calm seacoast where most of the population are fishermen. But there is a nice river valley just inland to provide for some livestock and produce production. The population is settled and quite peaceful.
The fighter would be a junior person in the local militia and might have actually see action in the dust up with smugglers a few years back. The Priest came here from the Capital to care for the souls of the flock...but most of the population only sees him on "meeting days".
This is my idea. Good? Stinks?
-BP
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Xa-ar has a number of small, independent coastal settlements and fishing villages, which have short descriptions in the sourcebook. The land is not exactly peaceful; more like not currently at war. There isn't a specific capital either. However, that might be a suitable location.
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I am not tying this to a location yet. But it should have been stable for at least 10 years or so. Wars on the frontier are OK. But burning down the village in that time would not allow folks to have the coin to hire adventurers to do the tasks at hand. But they need not have beaten their swords into plough shares.
I was thinking of some homegrown as well as imported heroes. The issue with the Seven Samurai ideal is that all of the characters need to be altruistic. It worked there because of the culture. Most mercenaries would do just what it took to get paid and then move on.
So Sam the Butcher's son turned soldier would be a better choice for the low level stuff that Mert the Mercenary. Sam will stay when the gold stops coming if it is to save his home, Mert is on the next wagon out of there.
I would think we need some 2 - 3 adventures before the hordes come riding on. But the specter of war if they fail is a very good plot hook.
-BP
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Xa-ar would still seem to be a good location. It has been at peace for a while, but the area is not what you would call long-term stable. Perhaps Terry could weigh in on this.
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Xa-ar would still seem to be a good location. It has been at peace for a while, but the area is not what you would call long-term stable. Perhaps Terry could weigh in on this.
Xa-ar works for me. There are also numerous small towns in Rhakhaan (there's a map on the back of the Haalkitaine module), and towns neighboring Gryphonburgh are also mentioned in that module.
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OK, I am all for Xa-ar. Now I need to get my hands on the setting.
Here are my ideas on what needs to be done.
1) Find the setting we can corrupt....er, work with. - We might have located it in Xa-ar.
2) Define the starting point - nice village that has a viable economy. This is because people would want to stay here, if they were living hand-to-mouth come a disaster they would leave and start fresh elsewhere. Also, it give out heroes a source of income and equipment.
a) Say a town of 3,000 - 5,000 people. This could include people living at neighboring farms and the like. This gives us a diverse enough population to have specialists in town (blacksmith, apothecary, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, so to say).
b) A bank of viable NPCs. Again to allow our heroes someone to interact with and buy ad sell items, get healing, and gather information. A small library or temple archives might be a good idea.
c) A economy base - Is this a fishing village? A farming center that runs a farmer market on a certain day of the month?
3) The story arc
a) While the adventures do not have to be lockstep (you cannot play this unless you have played X, Y, or Z) They do need to have a feel of growth and advancement through the path. We start out with inexperienced people that might be know locally ("That Sam helped me out when those bullies tried to bust up my store.") But have never seen the wide world outside.
b) There should be an eventual goal - prevent a war, stop an invasion, close a gate to the Pale...etc
c) Each adventure should reveal a bit more of the overreaching arc. As a corollary each adventure should "look back" and reveal what is known. This could be done in character packs ("Here is what you know") Or my favorite a section in the beginning where rumors and tales are told. Giving a recounting of the past events.
4) The Individual Adventures -
a) How many? - I think the number has been proposed of 6-10, am I correct?
b) Deadlines - How often are we "publishing"?
c) Rule set - Are we using RMU Beta 2 to start and manipulate it, if changes are made before publication pf the rule set? This would allow us to have a nice adventure path that can start with the publication of RMU (kind of like Vog Mur for thos who remember that), and then sales starting a few weeks/months later of the next few adventures.
Sorry for the shotgun affect here, but wanted to get some concrete brainstorming out there. And please feel free to tell me I am crazy with my ideas, not everyone thinks a like and I can be completely wrong.
-BP
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@tbigking and witchking:
Thanks...
I always thought RM needed mass marketing stuff like D&D to show it's stuff, and earn it the financial success it deserves.
This crowd sourcing campaign idea is a great way to do that. So I love that idea.
As far as the character packs idea goes, Shadowrun's premade characters, D&D modules and premade NPC's, then 3 hours of your group making characters only to watch a guy die to a mob in the first encounter will inspire that kind of stuff ::). I always noticed our group seemed out of sync, not really paying attention, while waiting for the guy who just died to make a new character. I'm sure all of the RM players have been there and thought of the idea before. I just typed it ;).
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In general I like the idea and having that characters are from the area in the population would be a great push to start them out. All the Region lores and languages would align right up here too.
I would include NPC's who have a list of things that can be accomplished (chores or favors) for extra money and story playing ploys. This can be a way to orient the players to the town and NPC's in the area. Also there should be a couple of "Mentors" or instructors of magic for the PC's to learn their spells from, weather this is from the church, hermits, schools, family, ect...
I would have a stock of 2-3 characters per player or to use in case of a premature death so that the rolling of character situation is taken care of at the beginning. This also may serve as switching characters in case of different plots or the player just did not like the other PC.
For fun I would have the characters have a chance at being a part of one of the NPC's family which can have plot possibilities further down the road (Orgillian Horror, I think I spelled it right). That would give at least some background to the PC.
A time line of events would be great to show the effects of a successful adventure or failure depending on the outcome. This could be actual adventure material or news and rumors.
Just a few comments from my tinkering brain....
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3-5,000 people is on the high side for most Xa-ar settlements. Most tend to be rather smaller than that; the area has had a few problems in the past, and is the wreckage of a kingdom rather than a coherent entity.
Is the first adventure going to be a stand-alone introductory adventure, introducing the players to RMU, Xa-ar and Shadow World, leading into the adventure ideas from Xa-ar? Or will it be part of a series? Trying for an actual story arc of adventures straight out might be a bit challenging, and trying and failing would probably be pretty bad (I've read comments on RPGNow about unfinished adventure arcs, or ones that have taken many years to complete; they tend not to be happy). There could be a middle road; no definite stated arc, but the modules could follow on from each other.
I'd definitely try and build the settlement into a fully functional place with lots of NPCs to interact with. It might even be possible to start the players at 1st level, doing stuff around the town until they get to the point where they can venture outside.
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@BPowell
I love the ideas. And you seem to have a solid outline. And that outline, while not having to be rigid will keep all the module designers on the same page.
On starting area. As far as the starting point, I don't know as I bought the SW campaign but I never got to play in it. I loved the idea of a shared world for RM but just couldn't get my group to try it. So I am not sure about any of the places.
As a noob to the world I am all for a solid setting point. One that has the stuff you talked about. In a RM campaign it is very important to have a base and be able to go to a cleric and get resurrected early on. Buy armor, Have availability to buy magical stuff, armor etc. It also helps, as all the legendary modules (Temple of Elemental Evil), have starting cities with strong NPC's to help the GM flesh out the world and push the story, or help the PC's where needed.
On Story Arc. Story arc is a HUGE point as if the arc gets to big it is very hard to reel it back in. Also players like to remember what they did. If the arch stays small enough, even if they run a new campaign, all the stuff they did can stay. And the new players can still have enough room to be heroes. Thus keeping players returning to the SW world.
On Lockstepped.I love the idea of the campaigns not having to be lockstepped as established RM GM's seem to love the flexibility. They can throw in other storylines and work the module into their grand scheme. While a D&D converted GM or someone new to FG running RMU for the first time would love a module that holds them by the hands and guides them through a campaign. I like the war idea as the arch is big enough to make heroes. Yet can be a small local war and thus allow for further adventures with different characters, while remembering the characters of past campaigns. But any great idea the writer/GM you chose to establish it should be fine as long as it sticks to the arch that is agreed upon.
On the Ruleset. I love RMSS and others love RMC, while others love HARP. Established RM GM's for those groups already know how to modify the ruleset for their worlds, should they choose to support a module set. But since ICE is wisely trying to unite their financial efforts and get all the fans behind one product, I think RMU would be the natural choice for such an endeavor.
On # adventure modules I was just throwing numbers out there. Obviously the # of writers who can create these modules will determine that. I threw out 10 as 1-5 levels seems long enough to establish a campaign but is flexible enough to allow GM's to throw in their campaign ideas at any time. I think players that are new to RM and SW are more likely to want to support more SW modules if they get invested in the world. It also allows established players of RM to jump in, no matter what level their current campaign is. Thus new campaigns all the way through high level campaigns could support the modules, RM and SW.
My idea is to let people experience a full campaign in RMU/SW to full level so they want to play again. If the first group campaign is successful there should be great need for more low level and mid level modules. The beginning to end setup will still allow the flexibility for established groups to jump in at any time. Also if we have start to finish, we don't run into the problem a new GM might have, if the group loves RMU but all that is available to him are low level adventures.
I also think it is very important to hand hold the GM through the module like the great D&D modules do. Giving all the EXP, treasure, NPC's and even things to be read to the players. My thought process here is to grab new players from FG and D&D players who might want to try RM and give them an easy way to get into RMU/SW if they can't find a RM group. Established great GM's can take the information and adjust it the way they want. IMHO RM modules of old just gave to many ideas and never fleshed anything out. Thus I never saw one used in a RM game.
The idea of a formula for levels (I.E. 1-5) is so groups can experience more of SW. Thus if you go 1-50, that would allow them to see 10 cities/adventure sites. Hopefully wanting them to experience more of SW. The established perimeters of the campaign taking them 5 (example) levels would make it very easy for players to stop at certain points. Rotate campaigns. Or take forays off into small adventures, then return to the campaign.
Ideas. Obviously it's all about the ideas and establishing common ground so the GM/module designers can get this to flow together and appear to be one grand campaign. While allowing many to contribute. So keep the ideas coming while the modules are still in the idea stage.
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Marketing.Crowd Sourcing is also a great way to fix the classic RM problem of average art. RM has art we all love, though it is probably more because it is our own than it's aesthetic appeal. The problem is it just doesn't have that emotional draw that the D&D books have. My own experience was Advanced D&D had artwork that just sucked me in. Thus I bought it's stuff. My GM had to fight and convince the group to try RM, and we weren't even an established group.
It kind of reminds me of Martial arts. There are arts out there that are just fantastic for self defense.Yet they remain obscure because the flavor of the month arts just sell to the kiddies better. You have arts that are constantly used in MMA, showcasing their effectiveness, yet the masses don't even consider them. Fast food restaurants do the same thing. No one accuses them of having the best food, but we all go there. RM IMHO is the superior product, but it suffers from an inferior marketing budget.
So if you are going to make a series of modules to support RMU and SW I suggest part of that budget be set for some marketing. Or do a whole new Kickstarter campaign to support said marketing. Maybe have art contest and pay the winners. Making sure the art that draws the masses get's picked. Which means it needs to be a marketing decision, not an emotional one. Which is very hard to do if you don't have a marketing team. Also making this work with FG or other plug and play systems that will get the product out to the masses might also be a consideration. Obviously working with ICE and supporting RMU is a great first step. As it should appeal to all 3 RM fanbases, while still being accessible to new fans. If ICE also works with FG or polishes FG as nicely as the new D&D ruleset is done up for FG that will probably be a SW module/campaigns biggest seller.
The beauty of a unified approach, getting RMU,SW and FG together is that anything made to give RMU more appeal in FG should benefit the paper and pen fans, PDF fans. As anything made to polish a ruleset for RMU in FG (or whichever system) will be easily accessible to the other communities. As ICE could sell PDF's for character creators, to expedite game play for all.
Obviously this is all just ideas, that if we get to the crowdsourcing level might want to be considered as part of the big picture. As good marketing will probably have a strong effect on total sales.
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In general I like the idea and having that characters are from the area in the population would be a great push to start them out. All the Region lores and languages would align right up here too.
I would include NPC's who have a list of things that can be accomplished (chores or favors) for extra money and story playing ploys. This can be a way to orient the players to the town and NPC's in the area. Also there should be a couple of "Mentors" or instructors of magic for the PC's to learn their spells from, weather this is from the church, hermits, schools, family, ect...
I would have a stock of 2-3 characters per player or to use in case of a premature death so that the rolling of character situation is taken care of at the beginning. This also may serve as switching characters in case of different plots or the player just did not like the other PC.
For fun I would have the characters have a chance at being a part of one of the NPC's family which can have plot possibilities further down the road (Orgillian Horror, I think I spelled it right). That would give at least some background to the PC.
A time line of events would be great to show the effects of a successful adventure or failure depending on the outcome. This could be actual adventure material or news and rumors.
Just a few comments from my tinkering brain....
OK, how I normally handle this for play test, since most of my group only play Rm when I run a play test session, is to create a "PC PACK". The contents of which are the following:
1) Character Sheet
2) A 3-4 paragraph background on the character giving family ties, likes/dislike and other info to run the character.
3) Any charts required (weapon charts)
I was thinking of doing #1 and #2 in the adventure (#3 cannot be dome because of copyrighted material. I get away with it because I keep the packs and do not let them walk away from the table) So when a play joins the game they can take the "PACK" they like slap a name on it and awaaaaaay they go. It also solves the issue of premature character death.
OMG, you mentioned the Orgellion Horror (spelling?)? I thought I was the only person to buy that module. I love it and have used it countless times to hook my players in.
-BP
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3-5,000 people is on the high side for most Xa-ar settlements. Most tend to be rather smaller than that; the area has had a few problems in the past, and is the wreckage of a kingdom rather than a coherent entity.
Is the first adventure going to be a stand-alone introductory adventure, introducing the players to RMU, Xa-ar and Shadow World, leading into the adventure ideas from Xa-ar? Or will it be part of a series? Trying for an actual story arc of adventures straight out might be a bit challenging, and trying and failing would probably be pretty bad (I've read comments on RPGNow about unfinished adventure arcs, or ones that have taken many years to complete; they tend not to be happy). There could be a middle road; no definite stated arc, but the modules could follow on from each other.
I'd definitely try and build the settlement into a fully functional place with lots of NPCs to interact with. It might even be possible to start the players at 1st level, doing stuff around the town until they get to the point where they can venture outside.
This is a product of my ignorance, or perhaps of my not having English as a primary language.
What i see is the total population of the county (say about a 20 mile radius or so) to be about 3,000 -5,000. I live in a mountain community above golden and I know the population for this area is like 8,000. But you would never know it because very few of us live close enough together to see our neighbors. Also, I am counting EVERY man, woman and child. Most FRP setting s only determine the number of adults. Out of 3,000- 5,000 total people you might be looking at 1,500 to 2,000 adults. This is also a genetically viable population (do not know if we want to go that deep) any smaller and the genetic pool would need infusions from the outside. I was thinking this would be more or less self-sufficient.
OK, the issue with abandoned Adventure path (story arcs) is that the consumer knows they were abandoned. This is due to each successive adventure being lock stepped with the last. Each one ends in a bit of a cliff hanger ("Will Sam escape the burning building? Will Bossy the Cow get Milked? Tune in next module...same RM time...same RM channel!") I was thinking a shadowy arc in the back ground very loosely tying the modules together. This is what I have done with a series I am running at the local Conventions. People can come and go and still pick the game up. Many do not even catch on to the arc until 3-4 games in to the series (some still have not).
To do this we make each adventure a complete story. The characters get the job, they do the job, they return to town/city to do R&R. The next adventure would have some small hook from the last adventure. People would know adventure A is link to adventure B. But there is no guarantee of adventure C.
This is all in how you market the series. If you state you are doing a 50 part adventure and stop writing at number 15 people will be mad. If you write one that links to the last (and not make playing or owning the last critical) you will not create a set of expectations you cannot meet.
Starting with the first to be "included" in the RMU/SW release give people something to do right out of the gate. Those that know SW backwards and forward will not need it and might use it as reference material (or bird cage liner), but someone deciding to "give it a try" will use the adventure as written and hopefully when part 2 becomes available will plop down few piece of hard earned cash to buy it.
I will put away my soapbox and let you digest what I said (and hopefully not cause indigestion)
-BP
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I was thinking a shadowy arc in the back ground very loosely tying the modules together. This is what I have done with a series I am running at the local Conventions. People can come and go and still pick the game up. Many do not even catch on to the arc until 3-4 games in to the series (some still have not).
To do this we make each adventure a complete story. The characters get the job, they do the job, they return to town/city to do R&R. The next adventure would have some small hook from the last adventure. People would know adventure A is link to adventure B. But there is no guarantee of adventure C.
This is all in how you market the series. If you state you are doing a 50 part adventure and stop writing at number 15 people will be mad. If you write one that links to the last (and not make playing or owning the last critical) you will not create a set of expectations you cannot meet.
Starting with the first to be "included" in the RMU/SW release give people something to do right out of the gate. Those that know SW backwards and forward will not need it and might use it as reference material (or bird cage liner), but someone deciding to "give it a try" will use the adventure as written and hopefully when part 2 becomes available will plop down few piece of hard earned cash to buy it.
I agree completely with what BP said here. It should be a Shadowy Arc. Players shouldn't really know the world arc anyways. Just stuff that is important to their game. I agree with the complete stories idea. I love the tying but leaving it flexible enough for GM's to adjust on the fly type of thing. As this will allow us to have different writers and yet somehow still achieve a campaign.
And I agree with launching it with RMU and SW at launch if you can as this will get more attention and be more beneficial to all involved. Especially the player community.
Keep the ideas coming. So we can flesh it out more.
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I'm excited to see so much enthusiasm for this concept! The art thing is a good point and some good ideas about a contest. At ICE in the old days we could not afford much quality art for SW.
Rapata in Xa-ar might be a good starting place. There is already a basic map, and a few places described. It is on a main road, there is an old castle on a cliff above and a rarely-used Navigator obelisk in a sheltered cleft of rock nearby. The inhabitants are pretty varied.
I just wanted to cheerlead again and say good ideas! I'd be happy to write an introduction once it gets nearly done, and along the way just see drafts once in awhile to make sure it is true to SW (I promise not to nit-pick; I have neither the time nor desire to do that!). I'm glad to see people interested in writing, and want to see more SW and RM products out there. There is clearly an interest.
Marketing is a good point, you'd need to coordinate with the ICE people regarding twitter etc. I maintain the SW Facebook page and of course we'd want to use that, but we would need to try to expand and go after other RPG users and draw them in.
If you want to try the crowdfunding route, obviously you'll need to talk to Nicholas and coordinate, but you'll be doing that anyway. I'll just sit back and kibitz once in awhile (though I'd like to be a judge on an art panel ;))
TKA
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I would include NPC's who have a list of things that can be accomplished (chores or favors) for extra money and story playing ploys. This can be a way to orient the players to the town and NPC's in the area. Also there should be a couple of "Mentors" or instructors of magic for the PC's to learn their spells from, weather this is from the church, hermits, schools, family, ect...
I would have a stock of 2-3 characters per player or to use in case of a premature death so that the rolling of character situation is taken care of at the beginning. This also may serve as switching characters in case of different plots or the player just did not like the other PC.
For fun I would have the characters have a chance at being a part of one of the NPC's family which can have plot possibilities further down the road (Orgillian Horror, I think I spelled it right). That would give at least some background to the PC.
A time line of events would be great to show the effects of a successful adventure or failure depending on the outcome. This could be actual adventure material or news and rumors.
Just a few comments from my tinkering brain....
I love the ideas.
On NPC chores. I love this idea. It gives the players more reason to be in this town and it will give them a reason to make this area their home base. It will also give them sure means to have money to buy anything they need.
On Extra characters.I agree 100% as a RM player we know death happens. We also know some people may not like their current character and want to change. And was one reason I suggested player packs.
On family to some NPC's. Whatever the writers go with is fine with me. But any idea that might give the player roleplaying motivation or the GM can use to further the story plot is fine with me. Family is a legendary GM plot tool so I like the idea. But we obviously don't want to be too specific and try to force something that is not within the writer/designers plans.
On Success/Failure arc. That is a fantastic idea if we are going to have a shadowy arc, with 10 complete stories (again just examples to get a fully fleshed campaign). This would allow GM's who are just bringing their group to the campaign (say level 25) to add their groups history to the current story arc. And it would tie the different modules together as the GM would already have the repercussions of the groups previous successes or failures. Or have a starting point if they are joining mid campaign.
On Rumors. Another great idea. I love the modules that give GM's something to tell the players. Descriptions that give the town more flavor, yet subtly inform the players of stuff they are expected to know is a great way to go. This is great because so many GM's fail or aren't good at explaining this stuff to players in game. This would just add to immersion in my opinion and is fantastic.
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OMG, you mentioned the Orgellion Horror (spelling?)? I thought I was the only person to buy that module. I love it and have used it countless times to hook my players in.
-BP
Yeah this was a great module that was a plugin adventure.
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Bigness's last post gave me another idea. We not only need to suggest ideas for the story arc and how multiple modules would fit together and still make sense and appear as one campaign. BP is doing a great job on that in my opinion. But we should also have a framework of things to help make these great modules.
Not knowing many classic modules I think "Temple of Elemental Evil" and the way it hand holds the GM through, giving them everything they need fleshed out is fantastic. Sure RM Gm's don't need that, but they already have the skills to adjust. Were trying to help draw new people to the RMU/SW and these types of modules would seem to be a great help for new and old fans alike.
If you know any other classic modules that players of all systems love, then suggest them. That way we can take what already works and go from there.
I love some of the ideas he added and think they should be part of our framework or ground rules on what the writers or whoever helps turn the story into a module should be expected to include.
He suggested.
NPC chore list.
Character packs (multiple for each class)
Success/Failure arc notes
Timeline of campaign events.
I would like to suggest NPC Hirelings to that.
The idea is some groups need help and the GM can have fully fleshed NPC's who are from the area that can push story plot and help adventures. Or advance nefarious plots against the players. It is also a way to bleed some cash if the GM feels the group is too rich. Temple of Elemental Evil did this well also. And I remember different GM's using the same NPC to help one group. And another GM using that same NPC to deter the group. Either way good NPC's that fit into the story and are either background or can help in adventuring could be solid. Yet if a GM so choses they can just ignore them and insert their own characters. Either way it gives the GM options, yet with the stats and work already established if they want to use them.
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Orgillion Horror - no, I have that too (I think I now have everything bar SWMA2 in one form or another). It's also going to be re-released as a PDF I believe.
The Xa-ar population figures - I would say those are purely urban figures. Given that medieval towns tended to replenish their populations from the surrounding countryside, rather than naturally (due to towns being really unhealthy places to live), I would assume that any urban area has at least the same amount of population surrounding it in much smaller settlements. Transport in Xa-ar between places is okay; it's also mostly sea coast, and that makes getting to other settlements a lot easier (although pirates could be a problem that needs solving by some handy people...).
Yes, a shadowy arc is the sort of thing I was thinking of. Something that isn't necessarily readily apparent until after the module is completed, and the players can then put it together. A possibility would be to set on or two modules in an area, and reference the main sourcebook for that area as a source of side adventures, then move onto another area, and do the same.
One thing I like in Pathfinder that I've seen is the combat rating of encounters. So, if an encounter is too easy/difficult for a party, there can be easy ways of tweaking it. Should players do side adventures before continuing, this would be important.
Artwork - yes, decent artwork isn't cheap. Especially if it's custom done. So any way of making it more available is good. Kickstarter has been used successfully by quite a few publishers.
Regarding pre-gen characters - if they are starting above 1st level, some sort of backstory explaining how they earned experience is good. It doesn't have to be extensive, just plausible. Served in the town militia is one example.
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It could be a random background based on Profession such as a Magicians Apprentice, Blacksmith Apprentice, Huntsman, Urchin, Acolyte, Orphan with a mentor. . . Ect.
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I'm excited to see so much enthusiasm for this concept! The art thing is a good point and some good ideas about a contest. At ICE in the old days we could not afford much quality art for SW.
Rapata in Xa-ar might be a good starting place. There is already a basic map, and a few places described. It is on a main road, there is an old castle on a cliff above and a rarely-used Navigator obelisk in a sheltered cleft of rock nearby. The inhabitants are pretty varied.
I just wanted to cheerlead again and say good ideas! I'd be happy to write an introduction once it gets nearly done, and along the way just see drafts once in awhile to make sure it is true to SW (I promise not to nit-pick; I have neither the time nor desire to do that!). I'm glad to see people interested in writing, and want to see more SW and RM products out there. There is clearly an interest.
Marketing is a good point, you'd need to coordinate with the ICE people regarding twitter etc. I maintain the SW Facebook page and of course we'd want to use that, but we would need to try to expand and go after other RPG users and draw them in.
If you want to try the crowdfunding route, obviously you'll need to talk to Nicholas and coordinate, but you'll be doing that anyway. I'll just sit back and kibitz once in awhile (though I'd like to be a judge on an art panel ;))
TKA
Thanks for your input. You are helping add enthusiasm to the conversation and keeping the ideas going.
I love your idea to help draw in other RPG users. I don't have solid ideas on that. So I currently am going with following the D&D model as it's artwork, and hand holding module design seems to work very well. And it seems to help build loyal clients. I think getting RMU set for a very polished FG ruleset and quick and easy experience will help everyone. And designing the crowdsourced modules/campaign to work with FG will allow it to be used by all interested groups. As ICE should be able to easily sell a good module to FG, Paper and Pen users and PDF users.
If the module is designed professionally it should be plug and play. Yes designed for RMU. But maybe also with the d20 conversion stuff already set up. Instead of the usual RM ideas. Have it actually fleshed out. So it could also be sold to D&D/d20 users with the hope of getting more sales, but ultimately bringing more people into the RMU/ICE family. And if such d20 FG rulesets were already established it could work both ways allowing RMU to buy modules from other systems and play them in a RMU/SW setting.
As always keep the ideas coming. And it's always good to hear from people who actually have experience in campaign, module, and other such designs :).
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OMG, you mentioned the Orgellion Horror (spelling?)? I thought I was the only person to buy that module. I love it and have used it countless times to hook my players in.
-BP
I think I only got to see that one for sale on Ebay, or it was a module that came with the SW boxed set. Either way I think I remember reading something on it, but sadly not getting to play it.
It's good to see you are both getting great ideas from solid modules that way we can try to make sure the stuff that is tried and true and works gets used. If we run out of ideas we can always look at the framework and things that made other modules classics.
Keep the ideas coming.
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(Orgilion Horror... biting tongue...) Sure great!
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(Orgilion Horror... biting tongue...) Sure great!
Agreed. Very Cthulhu meets castle d'ambre but not the "feel" of SW IMHO
Lots of enthusiasm and great ideas! However, I think it's critical to make any adventure path embrace the flavor of SW not just a generic adventure that's palatable to d20 or DD players. That flavor should embrace the SW differentiation from other game settings: Flows, Loremasters, Unlife, artificial beings and yes even ancient civilizations/tech. While those may seem to be high level components ill suited for low level adventures (a common if mistaken criticism of SW) a well scripted adventure path can and should introduce these elements. That's why I argued for using the GC as a template. Given product development times, competition and player tastes this might be the best way to introduce RMU and re-introduce SW to new audience. just my 2cents.
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Yes, it's important to not lose the feel of Shadow World in creating new content, and I agree that the setting isn't as high powered as manythink. Sure, there are some high powered things in it, but I've read a lot of D&D derived supplements recently, and they have a huge amount of magic in them.
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Great to see so much enthusiasm for Shadow World and so many good ideas here.
As B Hanson and egdcltd pointed out, I also think it is very important that this work really builds on what makes this fantasy world unique (and imo so loved by us all). I think this is where ICE went astray in the 90's when publishing a bunch of modules that very little of the unique SW feel. Let's not make the same mistake here :P.
Location: I think Xa-ar is a great location for a nice adventure arc. TKA has already given us an excellent setting and framework to operate within, and this will ensure we can give it the feel and tone of SW (there are Priests Arnak there, spies of Ulor, constructs from the First Era, Earthwarden "technology", powerful flow storms, Loremasters, etc). I agree that Rapata is an ideal starting point.
Adventure Path: I think keeping the campaign path as a shadow arc is the way to go here, as it will allow the adventure modules to work as stand alone but also as a campaign path for those who get hooked.
Length: I would plan on keeping this 5-6 modules long (maximum) to keep the balance level manageable.
Starting level: I would start the PC at level 3, as in RMU that's essentially the experience level of a young adult (I don't think we want to have pre-teens, the RMU lvl 1's) running around.
Player Characters: I would make a bunch (maybe 10) of full fledged PC's for these modules. This would allow GM's and Players to have something pre-generated in order to get right into the action. Taking a noob to the system (RM) through the relative high complexity of making a PC might actually put them off the system rather than pull them in. I always loved taking new players to the system through the old MERP ready to run modules.
So let's get a few new Shadow World modules done, shall we? ;) 8)
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I think INTRODUCING the things that you are pointing out as the items that make the SW different that other settings is good. But I must admit it gives me some concern. One of the major issue I have had over the years trying to introduce SW to my players is the perceived power level. I admit I have many of the modules and use them for background reference, and have not spent years playing the SW, so I am not the best person to make the case for bringing those things into a series of adventures that are build specifically to bring new players into the fold.
I agree with 3rd level as a starting level. It was suggested that the first adventure be for 1-5 and that is right in the middle of that range. But what 3rd level character could work with all that High level magic. In the past I know that my player shrugged and went to find something else to play. Even when a person that loved the SW was running and I was just playing. Letting a 3rd level see a Flow from a distance and knowing they exist out there an introduction. Maybe in the adventure where they are 10-15 they can tamper in the area of a Flow.
The town mentioned, Rapata, has access to a main road and even a Navigator obelisk nearby. Since we are starting there that gives is the ability to introduce the outside world to this small town. We can flavor the adventures by dropping hint of the outside world (Priest, Loremasters, and the like) without then walking down the streets bumping elbows with the populace. I mean what would bring some powerful being to a town worth literally 2 copper pieces to rub together?
I think we need to get a framework for the adventures down and then add in flavor pieces. I say ease new players into the SW, I think you will find a better acceptance level. IMO I think most newbies feel they are tossed into the deep end of the pool and expected to swim. They have a new system to learn, and now a LOT of information to digest.
Since I do not have Xa-ar (yet) can some one let me know the least imposing feature of the SW that is nearby to Rapata? We can look at introducing this in the first adventure, either as a side bar or the like. Then we add more and more things, before you know it we have a new class of SW experts.
-BP
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Player Characters: I would make a bunch (maybe 10) of full fledged PC's for these modules. This would allow GM's and Players to have something pre-generated in order to get right into the action. Taking a noob to the system (RM) through the relative high complexity of making a PC might actually put them off the system rather than pull them in. I always loved taking new players to the system through the old MERP ready to run modules.
I have been kicking this around during a long swim this evening. What professions should we start with, and which ones do we leave on the shelf. I was thinking of creating a pre-gen of each profession in RMU and then was daunted by the task. I agree that 10 might be an excellent number. The book lists 22 professions, but who really wants to be a Laborer. If we were starting at 1st I might have then be a Laborer and then change after that.
I was thinking taking the following Professions and using them (Please let me know why I am wrong, I am just brainstorming here and am not going to take offense)
Non-Spellcasters
Fighter - basic that any town might have a few of running around
Thief - A town means things to steal
Rogue - A bully boy in town trying to go straight (?)
Pure Spellcasters
Cleric - the apprentice priest in the town
Magician - The local wizard's apprentice out for his first adventure
Mentalist - an apprentice here to stretch his talents.
Lay Healer - a traveling "Doctor" looking to expand his practice.
Semi Spellcasters
Ranger - a wagoner on a caravan using the main road from town to town.
Paladin - a young knight errant
Bard - a new entertainer looking for new tales to tell
Again just spit balling. Like the list? Hate it? If the later tell me why and what you would change. remember I am an SW newbie so I might have things wrong from the start and we can correct them easily now.
-BP
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OK, I just bought and downloaded the Xa-ar source material. I do like the layout and what small amount I have read. Are we looking to start in the City of Rapata? I use the term city, because the source material mentions that the population is "some 7,000". Or is this information outdated?
We could start in a smaller village say between Rapata and the mining town of Roog. This could provide for a smaller start point, but the ability to "sneak away to the big city" to get materials or information.
Curiosity question.
-BP
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Shadow World Feel
I don't think it will be difficult at all to introduce Shadow World specific elements. To a large degree (90%+) this is like any other high fantasy setting, we just need to ensure that we give it the right SW flavour. Also this does not mean that our low lvl PC's should be traveling around with Navigator's, fraternize with Loremasters and take on Priests Arnak with wielding powerful items from a long gone era. But the presence of these should be somehow incorporated, it shouldn't be just a copy paste of a generic fantasy adventure. Similarly to what you suggested with witnessing a flow storm. As I said, I wouldn't worry too much about this. This board is full of SW enthusiasts so giving it the SW feel should become easy.
Professions
I think your list of profession suggestions is fine. I would only exchange the Lay to a Healer so that we can have a hybrid spell user in the mix as well. Maybe the apprentice to a retired Sister of Eissa? or a novice Sister of Ginh Tarn?
Starting Town:
Maybe Rapata is too big for the first module (or 2)... Foe a slightly smaller town, I think Tepentor could be an interesting town to start from: Bullying Quaidu refugees, racial tensions, looming fear of conquest from Ulor, etc.
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I am having a great time following this discussion, and excited to see what you all come up with. Just a note about SW being perceived as 'High-powered.' I never felt that SW was a game where you had to be high-powered to play, at least at the start; I'm sure many of you already know that. Sure there are power players like the Ahrenreth and Dragonlords, but the characters will not see them until much later—if at all—in person. Powers like that would be a vague scary rumor, if the PCs hear of them at all until they are many sessions into a game. Loremasters and Navigators would be like unapproachable celebrities, (like nobility in many cases).
These beings have minions to do their dirty work, and their minions have minions. If inexperienced PCs happen to stumble on someone really powerful, they might very well just be ignored. Unless they are sneaking around in the evil lord's fortress of course... ;)
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I am having a great time following this discussion, and excited to see what you all come up with. Just a note about SW being perceived as 'High-powered.' I never felt that SW was a game where you had to be high-powered to play, at least at the start; I'm sure many of you already know that. Sure there are power players like the Ahrenreth and Dragonlords, but the characters will not see them until much later—if at all—in person. Powers like that would be a vague scary rumor, if the PCs hear of them at all until they are many sessions into a game. Loremasters and Navigators would be like unapproachable celebrities, (like nobility in many cases).
These beings have minions to do their dirty work, and their minions have minions. If inexperienced PCs happen to stumble on someone really powerful, they might very well just be ignored. Unless they are sneaking around in the evil lord's fortress of course... ;)
I agree, while there are very powerful beings in Kulthea, they are usually beyond the direct scope of most adventures. But as you said there are many many layers of minions before you get to the really bad guys, and these layers can give PC's ample opportunity for adventure. I think the Xa-ar module (as well as the GGI) reflect these layers well, and hence provide good starting points for an adventure path.
Story Arc
I think BP's initial suggestion of stopping war coming to the area works very well in Xa-ar where the threat of war and conquest from Ulor is constant. The overall story could see the PC's uncover the Brotherhood of the Four Roses, thwart the plans of Lorgalis and maybe ultimately even confront his daughter Shenti Vortaen. In the process they could be aided by the Winter Light, the Order of the Elder, the Loremasters and perversely maybe even the Priests Arnak.
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I think I'd agree that possibly the players should initially start in one of the smaller settlements, which could be covered in detail as well, before moving to Rapata. War would certainly be a shadowy arc at the beginning; it's always been a fear, but it's not really a problem on the forefront of most peoples' minds currently.
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I think I'd agree that possibly the players should initially start in one of the smaller settlements, which could be covered in detail as well, before moving to Rapata. War would certainly be a shadowy arc at the beginning; it's always been a fear, but it's not really a problem on the forefront of most peoples' minds currently.
Well the area is certainly rife with villages, both in Saralis and further west in Xa-ar, and lots of adventure possibilities.
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The story arc should lead to a dragon. LOL. I recall there being a Dragon Cult of sorts in Xa'ar......
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Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.
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Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.
I appreciate that (and the caves are pretty high-level anyway), but I think it would be fine if you used the Brotherhood of the Four Roses, be aided by the Winter Light, the Order of the Elder, etc, from Xa-ar, and re-use some of that material and even expand on it.
There are also two adventures in the Guild Adventurer books set in this area: Rose Petals and Snow Lions is in Rapata, in #2, and the Keeper of the Thorn, GA #3, a bit more wild and high-end, in Saralis. These could provide additional source material, including background and maps. If Nicholas is ok with it, I can send you PDFs of these books (or even just the Shadow World portions).
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Well, the idea is to increase the amount of material available, not cannibalise the existing material and make it irrelevant (unless it's old material, such as I originally mentioned). I also don't think it would be right.
I actually have those adventures myself, so I'm okay, but others may not.
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Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.
OK, I think we are all thinking of a small village in the area of Rapata. Population, say, between 500 and 1,000? We could build it and populate it and this would not cause any issues with Xa-ar as it stands. The major market for any surplus goods could be Rapata, giving the ability to have higher cost items than could be produced in such a small village available. The village could be just finishing a major rebuild from the last war and people have become used to the peace and prosperity that has come lately.
If we move the village a full days travel (~30 miles) away from Rapata it should be fairly independent in the day to day events. But close enough that some of the characters might have apprenticed in Rapata and still have contacts there. It will also allow for tie-ins with the factions in the city (Winter Light, Brotherhood of the Four Roses, even some contacts with the Quaidu underworld). This would allow the characters to find information ("Just what is this piece of melted metal, and why is it not rusted?") and items ("What?!?!?! You want 5 silver a piece for Akbutege leaf? Are you mad?!?!")
As for making information in the source book obsolete, I would say if we stay faithful to the material there will just be one more village in the area. And since Terry is protectively watching over the project we should not break anything. In fact this might be a lever to have new players buy the Xa-ar source book.
Comment on the village setting?
-BP
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I have been kicking this around during a long swim this evening. What professions should we start with, and which ones do we leave on the shelf. I was thinking of creating a pre-gen of each profession in RMU and then was daunted by the task. I agree that 10 might be an excellent number. The book lists 22 professions, but who really wants to be a Laborer. If we were starting at 1st I might have then be a Laborer and then change after that.
I was thinking taking the following Professions and using them (Please let me know why I am wrong, I am just brainstorming here and am not going to take offense)
Non-Spellcasters
Fighter - basic that any town might have a few of running around
Thief - A town means things to steal
Rogue - A bully boy in town trying to go straight (?)
Pure Spellcasters
Cleric - the apprentice priest in the town
Magician - The local wizard's apprentice out for his first adventure
Mentalist - an apprentice here to stretch his talents.
Lay Healer - a traveling "Doctor" looking to expand his practice.
Semi Spellcasters
Ranger - a wagoner on a caravan using the main road from town to town.
Paladin - a young knight errant
Bard - a new entertainer looking for new tales to tell
Again just spit balling. Like the list? Hate it? If the later tell me why and what you would change. remember I am an SW newbie so I might have things wrong from the start and we can correct them easily now.
-BP
Ok great list to start with I like most of the professions listed. I agree with ARC and would change the Lay Healer with a Healer as the characters would need this support person at a greater level. I would take out the Bard as this is more of a flavor character and hard to play the concept with music and spells for beginners. I would put in the Laborer as a Blacksmith apprentice as this will still be a worthy character or use the Dabbler- trouble maker or Magent- tattle tell/Spy apprentice.
I think level 3 is the wrong tone for a beginners Module and should be level one with ways to incorporate small missions to advance to other levels with ease. If the product cannot support a level one character then there is an issue at the core of the game. This has been address many times and a system must support the character at the lowest level or the system fails. RMSS was able to have competent characters at level 1 or 2, so should RMU. At the very most start at level 2.
The adventure should have short stops at Rapata for small missions such as drop-offs or pick-ups of people or items which can be a point for Shadow Arc rumors, Items, Gear, Spells, Exposure to pickpockets, Black Marketers, Scoundrels, Dishonest Merchants, Ect..... All this without any real adventure set in the city to return back to the town with items and tales of Rumors and experiences. You don't have to be high level for any of this.
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Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.
OK, I think we are all thinking of a small village in the area of Rapata. Population, say, between 500 and 1,000? We could build it and populate it and this would not cause any issues with Xa-ar as it stands. The major market for any surplus goods could be Rapata, giving the ability to have higher cost items than could be produced in such a small village available. The village could be just finishing a major rebuild from the last war and people have become used to the peace and prosperity that has come lately.
If we move the village a full days travel (~30 miles) away from Rapata it should be fairly independent in the day to day events. But close enough that some of the characters might have apprenticed in Rapata and still have contacts there. It will also allow for tie-ins with the factions in the city (Winter Light, Brotherhood of the Four Roses, even some contacts with the Quaidu underworld). This would allow the characters to find information ("Just what is this piece of melted metal, and why is it not rusted?") and items ("What?!?!?! You want 5 silver a piece for Akbutege leaf? Are you mad?!?!")
As for making information in the source book obsolete, I would say if we stay faithful to the material there will just be one more village in the area. And since Terry is protectively watching over the project we should not break anything. In fact this might be a lever to have new players buy the Xa-ar source book.
Comment on the village setting?
-BP
I think this would be a great addition to the Module and a later modified map or information addition could be made to the Module as a second edition if Terry elected too, or it could be a town already on the map with the updates from this module to enhance it. I am not currently looking at the module so I don't know a town that maybe close enough at the moment.
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The two closest towns on the map to Rapata look to be Tepentor and Roog. Both look to be over 75 miles away, and have populations of 2,000+ and 1,500 respectively. This may make them a bit too distant, and a bit too large. A small satellite village of Rapata somewhere closer - I would say most likely a fishing village - seems quite plausible.
I'd have to have another look through Xa-ar for cultural ideas for the village. My overall feeling is that the area is going to be closer to Renaissance than to early medieval. Perhaps 15th century equivalent (assuming British/European).
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Ok great list to start with I like most of the professions listed. I agree with ARC and would change the Lay Healer with a Healer as the characters would need this support person at a greater level. I would take out the Bard as this is more of a flavor character and hard to play the concept with music and spells for beginners. I would put in the Laborer as a Blacksmith apprentice as this will still be a worthy character or use the Dabbler- trouble maker or Magent- tattle tell/Spy apprentice.
I think level 3 is the wrong tone for a beginners Module and should be level one with ways to incorporate small missions to advance to other levels with ease. If the product cannot support a level one character then there is an issue at the core of the game. This has been address many times and a system must support the character at the lowest level or the system fails. RMSS was able to have competent characters at level 1 or 2, so should RMU. At the very most start at level 2.
The adventure should have short stops at Rapata for small missions such as drop-offs or pick-ups of people or items which can be a point for Shadow Arc rumors, Items, Gear, Spells, Exposure to pickpockets, Black Marketers, Scoundrels, Dishonest Merchants, Ect..... All this without any real adventure set in the city to return back to the town with items and tales of Rumors and experiences. You don't have to be high level for any of this.
Hmm, love the feedback. Let me start with professions. I am in no way ties to this list. Just what seemed to call out to me while waiting for a work e-mail at nearly 2 AM. I can see ditching the Lay Healer for the Healer. For me it was a flavor idea. Face it the Lay Healer is almost unique to RM. But i can easily see where the Healer would be of a great benefit to the party.
The reason I have a Bard in the listing is that it is a profession that is in almost every setting known to Man and Beast. Before the advent of electronic forms of entertainment they were crucial for entertainment and news. But swapping it out for a Magent would be very OK in my book. To be completely honest I would have placed the Magent on the list if I was running in one of the settings I created. I enjoy the profession, but was worried it was a bias on my part. The issue would be to integrate the Magent in the village. Hmmm let me think on the politics of the village, might come up with a good idea.
I find the idea of starting at 1st level appealing. To me it is about building the character and advancing him/her trough the missteps of their lives. But I can see the issue with a 1st level RM character is very low powered. While the bully boys (fighter, rogue even thief) can hold their own the spellcaster are left far behind. Almost anything useful would be an Overcast. I might have a way around this that might appeal to many folks.....(wait for it....)
We have been kicking around a path from level x to level y where y > x (Hey it is Romemaster there HAS to be math ;D ) But why does it have to be a single linear adventure. I have been kicking around a grouop of LOOSELY link mini-adventures set in the village. These might include what I call "the house that Jack built" starter. we have all heard the old kids tale that describes lot of things all interrelated and each paragraph where they introduce a new item ends with "in the house that Jack built." I use this name for an adventure that seemingly runs you arund the town in a unending series of tasks. Say you have ahole in the sole of your right boot. Well you go to Clavin the Cobbler. He would love to help but her has no leather, he is waiting on Thom the Tanner to deliver some. So you go to Thom to see what the hold up is, and he tells you her is waiting on some lye from Artie the Apothecary. You go to Artie and find out he is waiting on something else. The four or fifth person might need some fighting done (large rats in the basement stop them from getting the flour, or some such). Then you work you way all the way back down to Calvin who fixes you boot for free for getting the leather.
In the mini-adventure above you meet many of the locals. Then one of them calls on you to do a favor for him. This leads to the next part and so on and so forth. This methodology is used a lot in D&D 5e. Unfortunately it has become a great way for the Attention Challenged to play the game and not have to spend all 4 hours in a slot. Sorry , putting away the soapbox)
OK, as one can see I am doing a lot of things in the mini-adventures that are leading up to bigger and bigger things. The characters could advance from 1st levels that need help tying their shoes to MIGHTY 3rd levels that can take on the large rat and win!
Comments? Like it or am I really suffering from a lack of sleep.
-BP
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Actually that is a fair distance away as to why the City would be a grand adventure to get to, which leads to an overnight adventure to go to it. It is also a reason for lack of rumors in the town concerning the city or this region as a whole due to being isolated. I actually think that that would be a great starting point and the population may seem large but it would support some commerce in the town to have different low level professions that can be apprenticed to.
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Yes I like your path to the low level adventuring. Could also require a trip to pick certain flowers for dyes or getting wood to make coal, hunting rabbits (traps or arrows) could be adventurous. Low level casters can have a big impact with Sleep spells, Healing, Stun effects ect.....
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1500 and 2000 are small towns. It would be normal to have quite a few smaller villages (<1000 people) in between, each less than a day's travel apart, assuming there's a lot of farming going on. That's natural because no one is going to live a day's travel from their fields. Fantasy worlds shift that, though, as it may be too unsafe to have small villages far from military backup.... I'm not familiar with the setting enough to say.
I made a random village generator for Inspiration Pad Pro if you want to get capsule descriptions of a handful of little village to describe what's on the road between X and Y (maybe between the two towns, or between Rapata and one of the towns). http://www.nbos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1107&sid=38dfde2f3a9a68d161e2be290d826687 (http://www.nbos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1107&sid=38dfde2f3a9a68d161e2be290d826687) (IPP is free if you aren't familiar with it. http://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro (http://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro))
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The two closest towns on the map to Rapata look to be Tepentor and Roog. Both look to be over 75 miles away, and have populations of 2,000+ and 1,500 respectively. This may make them a bit too distant, and a bit too large. A small satellite village of Rapata somewhere closer - I would say most likely a fishing village - seems quite plausible.
I'd have to have another look through Xa-ar for cultural ideas for the village. My overall feeling is that the area is going to be closer to Renaissance than to early medieval. Perhaps 15th century equivalent (assuming British/European).
I agree. So lets say we have a "new" village that has stood here for generations. it has been nearly destroyed in all of the past wars, but due to the fact that is sits on a small river it is a natural hub of commerce. Farmers inland and easily get their goods to the town via the small river and that town can ship them on to Rapata.
Also due to being on the river there is the mill, it converts grain to flour and that is shipped back up the river to the farmers. The salt flats generate salt another commodity that is traded with the inlanRoog.d farmers and even as far away as Roog bringing in ores and metals to trade with Rapata (made a command decision and placed it to the east of Rapata...mostly to gather this secondary commodity).
The village is governed by a council of 5 with one of them elected by the council as the Village Mayor. The political tension is high with the economy improving after the war and the town growing. Each Councilor sees him/herself a the mayor leading the town to meet their personal vision.
Late Middle Age Early Renaissance would work well. The village is beyond a hand-to-mouth existence and they are starting to get culture here. Even building a school and library to educate future generations.
Agreements?
-BP
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I had an Illusionist (2nd level) who cast the Illusion spell as a smokebomb in an area with an irritant in the spell so an unsuccessful RR makes one temporarily blind and have itchy eyes and coughs.... very inventive for a low level spell I had to award extra experience....
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1500 and 2000 are small towns. It would be normal to have quite a few smaller villages (<1000 people) in between, each less than a day's travel apart, assuming there's a lot of farming going on. That's natural because no one is going to live a day's travel from their fields. Fantasy worlds shift that, though, as it may be too unsafe to have small villages far from military backup.... I'm not familiar with the setting enough to say.
I made a random village generator for Inspiration Pad Pro if you want to get capsule descriptions of a handful of little village to describe what's on the road between X and Y (maybe between the two towns, or between Rapata and one of the towns). http://www.nbos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1107&sid=38dfde2f3a9a68d161e2be290d826687 (http://www.nbos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1107&sid=38dfde2f3a9a68d161e2be290d826687) (IPP is free if you aren't familiar with it. http://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro (http://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro))
Hmmm, I am looking at the source material I have at my finger tips. Is there any military presence in the area around Rapata? In my minds eyes I was thinking of having a few Sheriffs (ranger types) patrolling the area around the village to ensure bandits and the like were not causing problems (and thereby interrupting the flow of goods to the town) these would be paid by the Council, but heavily rely on the farmers for a meal and a warm place to sleep.
-BP
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Hmmm, I am looking at the source material I have at my finger tips. Is there any military presence in the area around Rapata? In my minds eyes I was thinking of having a few Sheriffs (ranger types) patrolling the area around the village to ensure bandits and the like were not causing problems (and thereby interrupting the flow of goods to the town) these would be paid by the Council, but heavily rely on the farmers for a meal and a warm place to sleep.
That sounds like someone who will stop by the village often enough to encounter the PCs, and stretched thin enough he might need to ask their help....
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One, slightly more complicated suggestion, is to basically have two starter modules. SW0 for 1st level characters, and SW1 for higher level versions of the same characters, so that people can move straight into bigger adventures if they don't want to spend time building characters up.
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One, slightly more complicated suggestion, is to basically have two starter modules. SW0 for 1st level characters, and SW1 for higher level versions of the same characters, so that people can move straight into bigger adventures if they don't want to spend time building characters up.
Or just give a method of upgrading (downgrading) the characters as an appendix.
-BP
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I think you'd also need to provide a method of doing the same to the various encounters too, or the module would likely become unplayable with the modified characters. It might be easier some ways just to have two modules, especially if the intention is to have them work by themselves as well as in a series.
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And I HATE scaled modules. It never works. Mu idea about the mini adventures was to have some low (1st) some medium (2nd) and the other high (3rd). If they want to play above 3rd, it might be better if we do have a different entry point.
I thought the idea here was to introduce new players/judges to RM and SW. While I hope that even experienced plays might get something out of the lower level games, if they want to start at 5th or above they might need to start at the second adventure in the path.
-BP
(off to Genghis Con here in Denver)
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Yes, that was what I was thinking. Have the first adventure be designed for new players, or experienced players who want to play from the start, but have the second intended for more experienced players, yet also suitable as an entry point, just one at a higher level.
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I think the 2 starter module approach is good: SW0 run around town and build experience, SW1 the start of the actual story arc. Then GM's can choose where to start from. The only reason I suggested lvl 3 as the starting lvl is that according to RMU (current beta) a lvl 1 character is defined as a pre-teen in age, while a lvl is a teen and only lvl 3 is a young adult. I have not play tested RMU yet, so not sure how a lvl 1 character plays (my guess is worse than a RMSS lvl1)...
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I agree. So lets say we have a "new" village that has stood here for generations. it has been nearly destroyed in all of the past wars, but due to the fact that is sits on a small river it is a natural hub of commerce. Farmers inland and easily get their goods to the town via the small river and that town can ship them on to Rapata.
Also due to being on the river there is the mill, it converts grain to flour and that is shipped back up the river to the farmers. The salt flats generate salt another commodity that is traded with the inlanRoog.d farmers and even as far away as Roog bringing in ores and metals to trade with Rapata (made a command decision and placed it to the east of Rapata...mostly to gather this secondary commodity).
The village is governed by a council of 5 with one of them elected by the council as the Village Mayor. The political tension is high with the economy improving after the war and the town growing. Each Councilor sees him/herself a the mayor leading the town to meet their personal vision.
Late Middle Age Early Renaissance would work well. The village is beyond a hand-to-mouth existence and they are starting to get culture here. Even building a school and library to educate future generations.
Agreements?
-BP
Although I'm a huge fan of command decisions, I'm not sure I fully understand this. So you would like to place the village 1 days ride (or 30miles) to the east from Rapata? This would mean that it's almost a 4 days ride from Roog (as there is almost 150 miles distance between Rapata and Roog). Is this not a little far? Also there is no sea coast for the salt flats between Rapata and Roog, as the coastline turn southward immediately after Rapata. What am I missing from your thinking?
Anyway, I like the 5 councillors and elected mayor etc.
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I agree. So lets say we have a "new" village that has stood here for generations. it has been nearly destroyed in all of the past wars, but due to the fact that is sits on a small river it is a natural hub of commerce. Farmers inland and easily get their goods to the town via the small river and that town can ship them on to Rapata.
Also due to being on the river there is the mill, it converts grain to flour and that is shipped back up the river to the farmers. The salt flats generate salt another commodity that is traded with the inlanRoog.d farmers and even as far away as Roog bringing in ores and metals to trade with Rapata (made a command decision and placed it to the east of Rapata...mostly to gather this secondary commodity).
The village is governed by a council of 5 with one of them elected by the council as the Village Mayor. The political tension is high with the economy improving after the war and the town growing. Each Councilor sees him/herself a the mayor leading the town to meet their personal vision.
Late Middle Age Early Renaissance would work well. The village is beyond a hand-to-mouth existence and they are starting to get culture here. Even building a school and library to educate future generations.
Agreements?
-BP
Although I'm a huge fan of command decisions, I'm not sure I fully understand this. So you would like to place the village 1 days ride (or 30miles) to the east from Rapata? This would mean that it's almost a 4 days ride from Roog (as there is almost 150 miles distance between Rapata and Roog). Is this not a little far? Also there is no sea coast for the salt flats between Rapata and Roog, as the coastline turn southward immediately after Rapata. What am I missing from your thinking?
Anyway, I like the 5 councillors and elected mayor etc.
I think it is safe to assume that there are small villages between the ones on the map, situated about a day's ride apart. Though they might not be much more than a few small houses/supply shops, one tavern/inn, and maybe a mill. Naturally farms would cluster around these villages.
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Really interesting idea and thread posts so far. Here's some observations from the Pathfinder Adventure Path (The Curse of the Crimson Throne - CotCT) that my group is playing through - I'm a player so these observations are from that perspective mostly:
- The Adventure Path can be a great vehicle for starting gradually revealing a setting (in CotCT it's a big city)
- The Adventure Path has so far done a good job of highlighting or introducing cultures, religions and historical elements without overloading the players - there's a separate Player's Guide for the Campaign that's like 8 pages or so that has "common knowledge" info on the city, people's etc as a primer
- Each adventure has a defined level range, e.g. 1-3, 3-5, 6-8. The adventures are pretty dense in terms of encounters however so they each have enough content to account for gaining on average two levels.
- There are some issues with the power curve within the adventures of this path as published - some encounters, often towards the end are a bit lethal for the party's level.
- Each adventure gives an updated version of the pregenerated characters at the appropriate starter level. We as players have found it helpful to guage whether our characters are equipped to face the challenges of the module and just out of curiosity to see how our versions of them differ.
I'd say it could be important to collaboratively plot out some overall details for all the adventures before getting too far along writing them if it's a crowdsourced effort. This could help to avoid issues with the "power curve" as I mentioned above.
The Pathfinder Adventures from what I've heard have a good amount of GM guidance and fluff text - it's a balance of advice for those new to GMing or at least to GMing that setting with enough fluff to help flesh out the setting, NPCs etc and to give more experienced GMs ideas for improved side-treks.
Just some random thoughts parachuted into an already well developed idea :)
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OK, the reason that I choose going east was that Roog told me it was a mining town. I have no information on the town of Tepentor. Since it is sitting up against the mountains (in the map) I can assume that is also has an income from mining. Since any village would assume to have some agriculture income (people have to eat) i was looking for a supply of something different to bring people to the village. We could sit it on a small river to allow the siting of a mill, or some such. Also the small river (too small to be put on a map) would allow transport of goods, a source of protein (fish), and fresh water.
I am seeing hard grains (winter wheat, barley) and the like being raised here. Perhaps some hardy fruit trees. This would allow the production of Ales, Ciders and cordials that could be shipped to Rapata. All of this gives the adventurers a reason to be here (guarding the brewery or an ale shipment) Being the crew of a small coastal freighter bring good to the village from the Big City Since we are starting with a sort of "the house that Jack built" (again an assumption for AP0, Adventure Path 0), we need a basis of economy so we can have the appropriate merchants and village people and a method of paying the heroes (a free night's stay? a chicken? a few copper coins?)
Off to beat up on some poor unsuspecting gamers at RPG tables.
-BP
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The sourcebook would seem to suggest that the only real mining is going on east of Rapata (presumably why Roog is to the east, not the west). I suppose there could be some very small-scale mining - or perhaps the players get hired to accompany a party doing some prospecting.
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Hmmmm, wonder if Terry can pop in with an idea on that.
-BP
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The sourcebook would seem to suggest that the only real mining is going on east of Rapata (presumably why Roog is to the east, not the west). I suppose there could be some very small-scale mining - or perhaps the players get hired to accompany a party doing some prospecting.
Either works for me. There could be some mining in the hills north of the western towns. Also maybe abandoned mines that could be re-opened, or prospecting. Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean that it's not going on there. :)
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I had considered the idea of abandoned mines, and I do quite like the idea. It's a fairly logical idea to send characters to them to investigate (I think that was one of the Norek adventures actually).
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Also, some of the mines used to be Jinteni. That brings up a possibility, perhaps for higher-level players, of discovering some Jinteni ruins, maybe even a portal to Emer III.
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OK, before we get jumping into adventures, let get the town built first. I was thinking a few small coal and iron mines in the hills to the north. Insignificant when compared to the output of Roog, but enough to keep a few families busy. Also, giving the town an income stream that is slightly unique to those in the area. This would give us some lower level plot hooks (go check on the XYZ family, or escort Mr. ABC back home with his supplies for the next 3 months.)
-BP
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With the town being on the main road, and a day's travel from the next major place, an inn with rooms to stay the night is highly likely. Perhaps a tavern for the locals as well, perhaps not. The inn would probably brew the majority of its own alcohol; wheat beer, rye whisky and perhaps vodka (or something else that can be made from tubers) seem to be the most likely drinks, given the staple crops of the region.
Also, with it being on the road, you'd probably get some appropriate service businesses. A blacksmith is highly likely no matter what, but this one may be capable of working on wagons. Other businesses related to looking after wagons and horses would seem probable. The inn would likely have a stable.
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Here is some of the things I have roughed out...it is not even set in water, let alone concrete.
The town is situated on the road between Rapata and Tepentor. It is bustling town of around 850 residents. The main source of commerce here is the road. There is not one but three inns. Each one caters to a specific crowd (One is mostly used by locals, one by the owners of the caravans that pass through constantly, and the last for the caravan workers- guards, drovers and the like). There is also a mill in town to convert the local grains to flour. While all of the Inns boast the best Ale or beer in the area (with a town festival to choose each fall) there is actually a distillery making alcohol from grains and the like (Whiskey and Vodka).
A blacksmith is there to shoe horses and make minor repairs on metal tools and gear. Nearby is the wheelwright to ensure that the wagons are kept in good repair. A large livery stable is available to care for horses, and with connections to a few ranches (farms) in the area where good horse flesh can rarely be found (the bad is sold to the inns).
There is a small shrine here with an old priest, and an apothecary to provide remedies for the ailing. But any major injuries will have to be stabilized and sent on to Rapata.
The blacksmith uses contacts in the hills to gather coal and iron for his forge. Often there is also tin, copper and lead brought in by the few families attempting to scratch out a living by mining the few deposits in the hills to the north.
The docks are in a protected cove and the traffic is mostly fishermen. They fish cod, herring and even some lobster from the shallower waters of Syrania Bay. Some small merchants pull in, mostly to take off wool, salted mutton, smoked herring and cod, and some of the ores that are to be found.
As I said broad strokes. Comments? Am I out in left field?
-BP
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850 might be a bit on the high side for the population; that would possibly make it a bit too important and large for the area, especially given that it is fairly close to a major urban area. Although a smaller town would probably require less inns. I was going to say tin seems unlikely, but it looks to be a product of the region, so perhaps there could be some.
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850 might be a bit on the high side for the population; that would possibly make it a bit too important and large for the area, especially given that it is fairly close to a major urban area. Although a smaller town would probably require less inns. I was going to say tin seems unlikely, but it looks to be a product of the region, so perhaps there could be some.
I like bpowell's but agree that maybe the town could be a bit smaller, and one maybe two inn with tavern/eating place and one other tavern more for locals. Also residents might take in guests during peak periods to make extra money.
As for Rapata (which might come later) I have written a chapter for my Loremaster fiction where the group comes to Rapata, with fairly detailed description of their time in the larger town. I can make a PDF of that section for reference for you, but again, that is for later.
Sorry if I am jumping in with too much specific advice; I'd like to see you guys run with this without too much interference from me.
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OK, I am not getting defensive and defending my ideas here, just an open question. How are populations in the Shadow World counted? The reason I ask is that most of the times people just think of the adults and leave out all the rest. I was thinking of a US Census type count where they count every living person in all of the houses. This is the basis of my count. Therefore using the adult/child ratio of the early Renaissance was between 5 to 7 children per mother (Source Victoria and Albert Museum). I reduced this to approximately 3 children per household, due to lower birthrates for some of the races. This would bring the total adult population to around 350. So I can use 500 as a baseline, is this more on what you are looking for? (A population of 500 is not genetically viable, but being on the road this would reduce that issue.)
Reducing the number of inns to 2 is OK. I can use the "Boarding House" idea for peak travel overflow. Was just looking for a large caravan might have 30 people or so, if you count drovers and the like. In most cases a "Inn" might only be able to house 20 or so. Also, overflow could be handled by a widow woman taking in boarders to make more money.
As for the Tin production, I used the Xa-ar source document. I was looking for a small side business using tin copper and lead (an older recipe from earlier times) to make pewter items. This allows me to do an adventure hooks to send a group to the hills to collect the items.
Terry you cannot be giving too much advice, I am asking for help here. While I have started construction of the town on paper (I envision some contractors working in Xa-ar making it happen :D ) But I would like to have something that we all agree on. So feel free to tell me what you see as not working and give advice on what will.
That goes for anyone on this thread, please help! ;D
-BP
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Are you just counting the people in the urban area, or in the surrounding countryside? 850 for an urban area is close to the bottom end of 17th century British city, which is why I thought it was high, as that would make it very nearly a city in size.
If only a portion of that lives in the city - perhaps a few hundred or so - and the rest in the surrounding countryside, it would seem more probable.
Tin, I originally thought was improbable until I re-read the portion of Xa-ar. So it is known in the area (in Europe it was pretty rare, and in the Bronze Age sources of tin were militarily important assets).
Caravans, I would imagine that at least some people stay with the caravan at all times. Guards if nothing else. So at least a portion of the caravan's people wouldn't need residence in town. Plus staying at an inn eats into profits.
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Are you just counting the people in the urban area, or in the surrounding countryside? 850 for an urban area is close to the bottom end of 17th century British city, which is why I thought it was high, as that would make it very nearly a city in size.
If only a portion of that lives in the city - perhaps a few hundred or so - and the rest in the surrounding countryside, it would seem more probable.
Tin, I originally thought was improbable until I re-read the portion of Xa-ar. So it is known in the area (in Europe it was pretty rare, and in the Bronze Age sources of tin were militarily important assets).
Caravans, I would imagine that at least some people stay with the caravan at all times. Guards if nothing else. So at least a portion of the caravan's people wouldn't need residence in town. Plus staying at an inn eats into profits.
Excellent questions!
I am counting everyone in the "sphere of influence". I see anyone within a 2-3 hour walk from the town center. They could be in town at the drop of a hat. I see them in town for market day, buying items from the blacksmith, providing produce to the Inn, etc. I see the town as being 30 buildings or so. This includes warehouses, the inn the brewery, and a local "municipal building" (I am seeing as a converted warehouse where communal items are kept like fire fighting equipment.) The rest would be separated from the town proper by at least a mile or so.
Does that answer the question?
Ooooh, never thought about Bronze.... I see the deposits as small. Say a few hundred pounds of Tin production a year. This would be mostly consumed in house, with say 30-40 pounds being shipped to Rapata a year. This is not enough for a group to try to take over the town, but enough to have raiders attack the town from time to time (can we say Plot Hook?)
Here is what I am thinking there is an Inn ( a building run solely as a lodging and eating place), with an "Alehouse" (the brewery I mentioned) that produces ales, beers, cider and even some distilled liqueur. I also has some food (think pub grub). Then there is a widow woman that takes in boarders from time to time.
Comments? Thoughts? Am I out playing left field again?
-BP
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http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm) has really useful advice about the ratio of businesses to population. You may have more or less than the average depending on local conditions, e.g. if there is an unusual amount of traffic on the road then it may support more than the average number of inns. (Which is suggested at one inn per 2000 residents, so with a population of 850 that means only a 42% chance of having one at all.) I don't think it's bad to diverge from those numbers, you should just think about why.
Taking in boarders implies that there is a reason people would travel to this village and stay there for an extended period, on business. (If it was social, they would stay with family etc.) It seems small to support that need on a frequent basis, but again, you could come up with a reason.
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This is a town that makes its income on travel. Therefore it has more than its share of accommodations. While there are large chances of rooms being vacant in the town, especially in the "off season" it is easy to close them up and only open them once they are needed. Having lived in areas (Hawaii and Colorado) that have incomes based on this I can tell you that this is the case. It is always better to have rooms to rent than not have them and need them.
Also, in times before the industrial age most unmarried males did not have a kitchen in the home. Heck, I have unmarried friends I doubt could find the kitchen of it was not where the refrigerator (beer storage) was located. This means most take meals out. This is why almost EVERY town has some sort of Inn/Tavern/Alehouse. While I know the tourist trade is a modern artifact, but if you look at historical documents from the Western Expansion of the US, towns were constructed about every 30 miles along roads. if it was feasible. This is because it was a days travel using horses. And while it was a "two horse town" the local housewife set out food for travelers, the first construction after that was some form of Inn.
Most places in well traveled routes have multiple places to stay. I know that here in CO it is a strange thing but towns that are Whistle stops along the road over 70% of the buildings are set up to service travelers (Hotels, restaurants, gas stations). Moving this to a per-industrial setting we have an Inn, an Alehouse and the widow woman taking in travelers. And the large Livery stable, a wheelwright and the like.
While I am not discounting the website you quote, I am basing this of documents from the Western Expansion of the US. If, I need to totally rethink the ideas I put forth I will. But this town must have enough traffic for people to come to it. This is why I used the road between Rapata and Tepentor (and points west). Most trade would move along this route, allowing the town to have a skewed number of "service" industries. Trust me if the town did not have the services the travelers would pass it by and find a campsite elsewhere. And this town would be a few houses and the "need" for adventurers would vanish.
Am I totally wrong? I am open to a discussion.
-BP
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The site I linked suggests one tavern per 400 people, so it's not in disagreement with you about that. Inns, on the other hand, 1 per 2000. You can't be profitable without a certain minimal level of business. If there's no inn, there certainly may be a farmer willing to rent out flop space in his barn. But, again, I think you can justify more, you just need to describe the reason for the extra traffic on the road, and you can probably use that explanation in the story as well.
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No worries, was just wondering if I am out in a field and not even close to what others thing as reality. I think with the heavy traffic I can justify the three establishments. Also with the Brewery/Alehouse making harder spirits, these could be exported to Rapata as a source of income.
I have placed a sizable garden in the area right behind the Inn so times when there is no traffic would b a cash poor time but not too much of a hardship for the family. I spend a lot of time in a town named Breckenridge here in Colorado. During the winter and summer almost every room is rented out 24/7. In the spring and fall you can get a room very easily. Most people are doing maintenance and getting ready for the next rush of customers. Also, because of the traffic many people come to town to get jobs.
So, is there any objections with going with what was proposed?
-BP
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I think the religious personage should probably be from the Cult of the Blue Dragon, so he may have an acolyte too. There's probably a Sister of Ginh Tarn in the village as well; I doubt there would be two of them. Perhaps an old battlefield somewhere outside the village.
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Just an organizational suggestion... I think there are lots of great ideas here, and you are reaching a point where you might need to determine who is seriously on board, and decide among you who is the editor to guide this thing. You might need a livechat amongst yourselves to organize things. You need someone who has the time and desire to guide this and coordinate with the other contributors.
I would also consult with Nicholas if you have not already. (I think—but don't assume—that there would be some compensation when this is published.)
This maybe should be moved to the SW product development section of the forums that Nicholas created awhile back, but that's for him to decide.
Once that is done, then put together a detailed proposal/outline for Nicholas and me to look at.
Just my suggestion on how to proceed. I am sure Nicholas will have thoughts as well.
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Yes, I agree that we're getting to the point where it needs making into a proper project. Seeing who wants to join, who can do what, who already has experience in publishing material (not just self-publishing) and how to keep track of just what each contributor has done (needed for sorting out any potential compensation if nothing else).
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I think the religious personage should probably be from the Cult of the Blue Dragon, so he may have an acolyte too. There's probably a Sister of Ginh Tarn in the village as well; I doubt there would be two of them. Perhaps an old battlefield somewhere outside the village.
I had an idea that a Sister of Ginh Tarn was in the village. I know that most of the Lotana in this area are devoted followers of the Cult of the Blue Dragon. The Sister is more or less a midwife that is a short term resident. Also I was going to have a small untended shrine to Neela, Patron of Sailors.
-BP
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Untended shrines to Iloura might also be found in the nearby countryside.
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Untended shrines to Iloura might also be found in the nearby countryside.
I can see that. I was thinking most of the farmers/ ranchers in the area would have personal household shrines to her, but I could easily see a untended shrine maintained by a few families in the area.
-BP
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Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.
And of course there needs to be an inn! ;D - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it ;)
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).
I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.
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I agree with TKA and egdcltd that it's time to take this from the idea phase and to establish this as a proper project.
I could potentially be coaxed into volunteering as an editor for this... Now, I don't have any actual editorial experience, but I have significant (multi-million dollar) project management experience. How come I have the feeling I will be regretting this??? ::) Kidding aside, I'm excited that there is so much interest and passion to produce more material for Shadow World and I'm happy to help that come true any way I can. I'm also happy to just consume new SW material or help in some other capacity (if needed), so if someone else feels strongly about taking on the "pain" of managing this project, feel free to step up :D
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Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.
And of course there needs to be an inn! ;D - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it ;)
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).
I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.
As to size I think we are looking at just like 300 living in the town in actuality, with the rest of the population i quoted in 20 mile radius. Is this what we are look at?
I must admit to not having a depth of knowledge on Xa-Ar, so I would love all the help I can get in that area. I was thinking that they would get one to two caravans a month during the peak travel times in the year (summer). This would mean that four to five wagons per caravan. I love the idea of the Innkeeper making cheese or the like. Also, I have been rolling around the idea in my mind (lots of room in there) about his wife being the local "apothecary". While that is too strong of a word. While she is above knowing this herb makes a good tea for settling the stomach. She only raises a handful of herbs in her garden, mostly for consumption of her family and neighbors. I have postulated that the Sister helped the Innkeepers wife through her last pregnancy and has stayed on in town as a semi-permanent guest in the inn.
I do not see any case for tourism currently. It is just a larger than normal town. But as our adventurers start poking around they might find things that would bring academics or religious pilgrims from Rapata. But that of course might bring in some unwanted attention from raiders.
-BP
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Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.
And of course there needs to be an inn! ;D - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it ;)
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).
I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.
I am also a Director in a Multi-million, multi-national company, but I do not know that makes me a good candidate for the editor. I have written documents and manuals for technical material, but that again does not make me a hands down candidate for "editor". I think what this needs is someone with time to put into keeping all of the pieces and parts in line. Arc, if that is you....sounds wonderful.
-BP
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I'm just volunteering at this stage, if someone else feels strongly about managing this project I'm more than happy to step aside.
The idea is to get going on a first intro module (hopefully introducing new GMs and players to SW and possibly RMU as well). We hope that this will develop into a full adventure path with 5-10 modules, but at this stage we are focusing on getting the first module done. The setting will be a small town in Xa-ar.
So please let us know if you are interested in participating to this work in some way, and how you would like to contribute.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Volunteer away... we need to start moving forward or nothing will get done. I did not mean it to sound like I had an objection.
-BP
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I'm thinking that we should also probably have a few hamlets or thorpes in the nearby area. Perhaps with some minor defences, but the residents might evacuate to the town if necessary.
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You just hit on the issue I have come up with defense. I am thinking a wall made of stone. Most males in the town would be required to train with a weapon (Spear or the like) and have it in the home. But in recent times this has slacked of with the feeling of extended peace.
I was thinking groupings of farming huts together in the areas north of town. Is this what you were thinking for a Hamlet?
-BP
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Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.
The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.
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They would likely have built the town around an existing place of strength (a keep or tower) and retreat in to it in times of need. Perhaps the local mayor governs out of it- or one of the Inns is actually a converted keep. Xa'ar is "occupied" to a degree so I think defence to maintain sovereignty at least would be required. In fact many of the locals could have abandoned independant farmsteads and retreated to the protection of the keep/tower and thus the town sprung up recently.
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Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.
The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.
I am not thinking a stone wall like you might see on an English castle. There the stones are fitted and held in place by a mortar. Here I was thinking that the stone that had been moved during the building of the town would be piled up and held in place with a simple mud mortar. OF course, I was thinking the area is a bit rocky. If it is more heavily wooded then a wooden palisade is more appropriate. They would use what they had. I also set this on a stream or a small river. Too small to be on most maps but it would run year round. This would be source of fresh water, food and power.
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They would likely have built the town around an existing place of strength (a keep or tower) and retreat in to it in times of need. Perhaps the local mayor governs out of it- or one of the Inns is actually a converted keep. Xa'ar is "occupied" to a degree so I think defence to maintain sovereignty at least would be required. In fact many of the locals could have abandoned independant farmsteads and retreated to the protection of the keep/tower and thus the town sprung up recently.
I was trying to stay away from sites like this. I was thinking that they are so minor in the political spectrum that the wars have passed over them. Crops have been burned and buildings razed, but both sides know if you kill the peasants you stop food production and then you starve. The town might have been raided a few times but nothing major. The wall keeps "honest raiders honest". So to speak and stops wild animals from attacking kids and livestock. I was thinking that the "Inn" might have thick walls and the ability to house a large portion of the population during a raid (at least the women and children)
If there was a tower here or some form of keep the raiders would not leave, but use it as a base of operations. Since these are peasants they are only a bit above the subsistence living, there are not libraries or the like in town (except perhaps in private homes). The economy is mostly barter with the few coins brought in per year on trade and selling surplus is used to buy new manufactured goods from Rapata (A plow, some new blacksmith supplies etc).
Too high up on the economic standard and they would become targets. This is what i see as the start of the adventures. Some new deposits in the hills, the town is getting more income. Adventurers come to town and it starts to grow. The fame spreads and raiders come, etc.
Agree? Disagree?
-BP
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Castles & Ruins gives the cost of walls and construction times as:
6" thick wooden palisade 10' tall, 10' wide: 8 days labor, 3 bp
12" thick: 12 days labor, 5 bp
6" thick wooden construction wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 20 days, 8 bp
12" thick: 30 days, 12 bp
6" thick stone wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 68 days, 61 bp
12" thick" 80 days, 72 bp
A Magical Medieval Society suggests a population density of 30-40 adults/acre for a small town. Call that 80-100 people/acre. So that puts a settlement of 850 people around 9.5 acres. When I ask Wolfram-Alpha for the circumference of a circle that size, it gives me 2280'. Let's suppose the village has grown and spills past its walls a bit, so maybe 1500' -- that actually only encloses half the town, 4.1 acres. That means:
A 6" thick wooden palisade took 1200 man-days to build, costing 450 bp (4.5 gold). A 12" one took 1800 days.
A 6" thick wooden construction wall took 3000 man-days, costing 1200 bp (12 gold). A 12" one took 4500 days and 1800 bp.
A 6" thick stone wall took 10,200 man-days, costing 9,150 bp (91 gold).
Even the palisade is a pretty significant investment of time and manpower. People would certainly do it if the village is sufficiently threatened. The stone wall is a huge investment, though, you have to really believe it's going to make a difference to build something like that, and you have to plan it far in advance -- even if the whole town is working on it, it will take months, and then they aren't producing any food, so actually it takes years. You can cut corners to some extent on less sturdy construction but a lot of it is just getting stone to the site. It's not totally out of the question, but it's the value of ~15 decent horses. You could build a 5' wall for half that, but invaders could climb over it pretty easily. Also, you need gates and some kind of supports - could be buildings, towers, buttresses. So these estimates are actually low.
Alternatively, you could have a small fort for people to retreat to. Or, less militaristic, you could have one solid stone structure that the town can retreat into. Historically it would probably be a stone church, not sure for Xa'ar. A religious building is less likely to be seized and used as a base by bandits, I would think. An actual fort does seem like it is asking for trouble.
Another alternative is to have partial walls. You might have a gate and stone walls on the side you expect attacks from, and palisades elsewhere, especially if there is rough terrain. This could also happen if there is (or was) a desire for stone fortifications but it's not finished yet or they gave up on it. Having different areas with different strength defenses is not great tactically, but it does mean you can declare that one section can be
defended by NPCs while there is some smaller area which a smaller flanking force of enemies might come through, that can be held by the PCs.
Narratively, you also might want to start with a smaller less-fortified village that can be dramatically destroyed and the inhabitants flee to a somewhat larger better-defended village. :angel5: Depends where you are going with the story.
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Castles & Ruins gives the cost of walls and construction times as:
6" thick wooden palisade 10' tall, 10' wide: 8 days labor, 3 bp
12" thick: 12 days labor, 5 bp
6" thick wooden construction wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 20 days, 8 bp
12" thick: 30 days, 12 bp
6" thick stone wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 68 days, 61 bp
12" thick" 80 days, 72 bp
A Magical Medieval Society suggests a population density of 30-40 adults/acre for a small town. Call that 80-100 people/acre. So that puts a settlement of 850 people around 9.5 acres. When I ask Wolfram-Alpha for the circumference of a circle that size, it gives me 2280'. Let's suppose the village has grown and spills past its walls a bit, so maybe 1500' -- that actually only encloses half the town, 4.1 acres. That means:
A 6" thick wooden palisade took 1200 man-days to build, costing 450 bp (4.5 gold). A 12" one took 1800 days.
A 6" thick wooden construction wall took 3000 man-days, costing 1200 bp (12 gold). A 12" one took 4500 days and 1800 bp.
A 6" thick stone wall took 10,200 man-days, costing 9,150 bp (91 gold).
Even the palisade is a pretty significant investment of time and manpower. People would certainly do it if the village is sufficiently threatened. The stone wall is a huge investment, though, you have to really believe it's going to make a difference to build something like that, and you have to plan it far in advance -- even if the whole town is working on it, it will take months, and then they aren't producing any food, so actually it takes years. You can cut corners to some extent on less sturdy construction but a lot of it is just getting stone to the site. It's not totally out of the question, but it's the value of ~15 decent horses. You could build a 5' wall for half that, but invaders could climb over it pretty easily. Also, you need gates and some kind of supports - could be buildings, towers, buttresses. So these estimates are actually low.
Alternatively, you could have a small fort for people to retreat to. Or, less militaristic, you could have one solid stone structure that the town can retreat into. Historically it would probably be a stone church, not sure for Xa'ar. A religious building is less likely to be seized and used as a base by bandits, I would think. An actual fort does seem like it is asking for trouble.
Another alternative is to have partial walls. You might have a gate and stone walls on the side you expect attacks from, and palisades elsewhere, especially if there is rough terrain. This could also happen if there is (or was) a desire for stone fortifications but it's not finished yet or they gave up on it. Having different areas with different strength defenses is not great tactically, but it does mean you can declare that one section can be
defended by NPCs while there is some smaller area which a smaller flanking force of enemies might come through, that can be held by the PCs.
First, thanks for confirming my calculations. I was a bit higher on area of the town, but not too far off. I have an idea I am going to present to the team once I have it all laid out. It will explain how the town is defended and the cost (as a preview think the word amortization) .
Narratively, you also might want to start with a smaller less-fortified village that can be dramatically destroyed and the inhabitants flee to a somewhat larger better-defended village. :angel5: Depends where you are going with the story.
If we go that route lets just start in Rapata with a back story of a burned village....
-BP
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Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.
The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.
I am not thinking a stone wall like you might see on an English castle. There the stones are fitted and held in place by a mortar. Here I was thinking that the stone that had been moved during the building of the town would be piled up and held in place with a simple mud mortar. OF course, I was thinking the area is a bit rocky. If it is more heavily wooded then a wooden palisade is more appropriate. They would use what they had. I also set this on a stream or a small river. Too small to be on most maps but it would run year round. This would be source of fresh water, food and power.
Ah, a dry stone wall basically then, with some added mortar. These were built in the UK (usually only about 3-4' or so high) around fields by using the stones that turned up during ploughing the fields. You got a lot of rocks that way. I can't tell from the Xa-ar region map (have to see if I have any other maps that are more helpful) whether or not the precise area is heavily wooded, but the area in general has quite a few trees going by the description, mostly coniferous.
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As Terry has indicated, it is time for those who would like to work on this project to formally get together and decide on roles. I am happy to bring the emergent team over to the Shadow World development forum once team membership is agreed and then to draw up the necessary contracts.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Ah, a dry stone wall basically then, with some added mortar. These were built in the UK (usually only about 3-4' or so high) around fields by using the stones that turned up during ploughing the fields. You got a lot of rocks that way. I can't tell from the Xa-ar region map (have to see if I have any other maps that are more helpful) whether or not the precise area is heavily wooded, but the area in general has quite a few trees going by the description, mostly coniferous.
This is what i had in mind. I admit I remember living for a while in Scotland and traveling and seeing stone walls everywhere. These were products of them working the land and the make-up of the soil. The wall I envisioned would not be too high. But looking at the material wood might be more easily available. If it is conifers then cutting one down and removing the limbs would be relatively easy for a teams of men. Since this material would be needed for buildings, ships and even heating of homes it would not be a custom purchase.
Each family in town (men, women and order children) would be required to put forth some effort to maintain public structures (such as the wall). If it was built over several years, this would not cause a huge outlay of immediate cash. If we amortize the investment of 100 Gold over 30 years, this becomes affordable for a small town. I see this being just a maintenance cost now days.
I am now making the Inn in town an old ruined tower that has been rebuilt. I am looking at the timeline to see when this might have been done. I am also using the cost in C&R to calculate the cost of this structure. I cannot see a military force leaving the tower in any form that could be used. But they could have "broken the tower, but not removed its foundations" (A paraphrase of J.R.R.T). I just have the feeling the cost will be staggering causing the breaking to have been done generations ago.
Speaking of the timeline, I am assuming we are generally working from the timeline in the Xa-ar Source book? If so, what is the current year? Are we going with the last year written there? I would roll that back about 2-3 years, give the characters time to develop a bit before War comes roaring back in. TKA, what are your thoughts, it is your source book w are working with.
-BP
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The advantage with coniferous wood is that it's easy to get. If there isn't any at a particular time, simply wait about ten years, and you'll have a halfway decent crop. Add a bit more time, and you'll have a nice pile of, admittedly softwood, lumber.
I would agree to working to a few years before the current Xa-ar timeline. A timeline for the town itself that fits in with the regional timeline is something that also needs doing. Incidentally, Necromancer Games' The Book of Taverns has a tavern in a ruined tower.
So, how do we go about getting this project formally organised? I think everyone who is interested in doing anything should chime in.
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The advantage with coniferous wood is that it's easy to get. If there isn't any at a particular time, simply wait about ten years, and you'll have a halfway decent crop. Add a bit more time, and you'll have a nice pile of, admittedly softwood, lumber.
I agree that the softness of the Pine and its flammability cause me pause, but it is better than no defense at all. And if the wood is plentiful then replacements for the structure would not be hard to come by. So the maintenance cost would be reduced.
I would agree to working to a few years before the current Xa-ar timeline. A timeline for the town itself that fits in with the regional timeline is something that also needs doing. Incidentally, Necromancer Games' The Book of Taverns has a tavern in a ruined tower.
I do not have that source book. Is it available as a PDF? I am waiting to see if TKA cares if we mess with the timeline (additions only) in the local area.
So, how do we go about getting this project formally organised? I think everyone who is interested in doing anything should chime in.
I know I have been contacted by a member on the board privately asking about getting organized. I am also, having my standard gaming session today and will see about recruiting. I think we need to get the group together off boards, get a plan together and present Nicholas with the plan.
-BP
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Revise the last post...I now own the Book of taverns...very interesting.
-BP
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I was just about to post that the tavern in the book is a humanoid one in the wilds. It's quite a useful book, though, as is Inns & Taverns Essentials from RPG Tips.
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As Terry has indicated, it is time for those who would like to work on this project to formally get together and decide on roles. I am happy to bring the emergent team over to the Shadow World development forum once team membership is agreed and then to draw up the necessary contracts.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
So far we have bpowell and egdcltd as lead developers, jdale for rules check and general feedback, and myself for editing, coordination and minor input.
Is there anyone else interested in joining the team in some capacity? Witchking20k?
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My vision of the setting is that the immediate lands around the town are somewhat hilly (good for grazing), with small patches of areable farmland in between. A little further inland closer to the foothills of Kaldasfang starts a heavily wooded area that reaches to the limit of the tree line. Not sure if this is what you guys had in mind?
The town would definitely have a wall of some kind, whether a stone one, built from rocks found around the area or a palisade from trees transported downriver. Personally, I like the idea of a dry stone wall.
Timeline wise I like the winter of TE6053 as a starting point. The effects of the loss of the norther eye of Utha brings a certain atmosphere of fear, stress and uncertainty into the game. Maybe the game could even start on New Year's Eve (in median res so to speak)?
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So far we have bpowell and egdcltd as lead developers, jdale for rules check and general feedback, and myself for editing, coordination and minor input.
I will just reiterate what I told Arc, which is that I'm happy to help where I can, but I don't know Shadow World. So it's on you guys to take the lead and to make it work in the setting.
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At some point I can see us needing people to do illustrations and maps, although neither is particularly urgent. Illustrations, if they are going to match the content, need some content to match first. For maps, just some rough stuff showing the relative positions of areas to scale (x marks the spot as it were) would be fine for initial work.
I can see the following maps being needed:
Town
Immediate area of the town
Local area
The above three would have the maps have more whatever to the inch as they progress. Also:
Locations maps (adventure locations, mines, buildings and the like)
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At some point I can see us needing people to do illustrations and maps, although neither is particularly urgent. Illustrations, if they are going to match the content, need some content to match first. For maps, just some rough stuff showing the relative positions of areas to scale (x marks the spot as it were) would be fine for initial work.
I can see the following maps being needed:
Town
Immediate area of the town
Local area
The above three would have the maps have more whatever to the inch as they progress. Also:
Locations maps (adventure locations, mines, buildings and the like)
Agree, but as you said before we get there we have loads of other things to work on ;D
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I have tried to list out all the areas that need to be completed, but I'm sure that I have missed some (especially on editorial part). Maybe Terry or Nicholas has some things to add as well? Next I guess we should determine how we want to structure the work; agree on scope, what areas we co-develop, how we systematise it (google docs, developer forum, e-mails, meetings, etc.), who is responsible for what exact area, how long to complete the various tasks, etc. I think it would be good to have a kick-off meeting (google hangouts, skype conference, or something) quite soon so that we can talk through all the various points. We should also come up with a 8) project name. But first I guess we should move this over to the developers section and agree details with Nicholas.
Introduction
- Brief Description
- Credits
- System Notes
History
- Big Picture
- Town/Area History
- Local Events
- Rumours
Setting
- Weather
- Flow Activity
- Weather Chart
- Land
- Water
- Roads
- Metals and Minerals
- Flora
- Fauna
- Herbs
- Perils
- Encounter Table
People
- Demographics (Racial Composition)
- Economy
- Language
- Religion
- Politics
- Security
- People of Note
- PC’s
- NPC/PC Stats
Places
- Town Highlights
- Buildings of Note
- Places of Interest
- Maps
- Layouts
Adventures
- Plotline Synopsis
- Gaming Details
- Task
- Starting the Players
- Aids
- Obstacles
- Scenes
- Rewards
- The Big Picture
Editorial
- Initial Draft Review
- Format / Layout
- Proof Reading
- Cover Art
- Interior Art
- Final Draft Review
- e-publishing
- Print Proofing
- Player Guides / Handouts
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History Recap (Big Picture)
It is almost a millennia ago since the Lord of Ulor again laid claim (at least nominally) to the lands of Xa-Ar and the coast of Saralis. Ever since, the influence of Ulor has waxed and vaned as years and generations have passed. The threat of Ulor's tax collectors is one that all people of Xa-ar have to constantly live with, but it has been relatively peaceful the past 100 years or so. 30 years ago things started to change. First arrived small groups of Quaidu occupants to stabilise the region, and then 10 years ago more arrived as Lord Damon Alizon was driving the Quaidu forces out of southern Saralis. In autumn of TE6050 the Lord of Ulor mounted his assault on the western shores of Jaiman. Allied with the High Priest of Yaarth, the current Lord-Regent of Helyssa, they quickly sweep over the eastern region of U-Lyshak and assault the western border of the Rhakhaan Empire. However, things come to an abrupt halt in TE6051-1-6 when monstrous winters blizzards hit Jaiman. [I assume this would affect Xa-ar region as well, but maybe TKA has a thought on this?]. Things take a turn when TE6051-5-21 Prince Kier Ianins (the rightful heir to U-Lyshak) appears amidst a tremendous pyrotechnic surge in the Essence. Wielding the full powers of the Sea Drake Crown, the very earth rebels against the invaders and entire legions get swept out to sea by the rising rivers or swallowed up by the ground they stood on. Over the next month a large number of Quaidu fleeing the destruction come to Xa-ar and Saralis for refuge.
Given that our town is on the coast, I would assume Quaidu refugees would attempt to come and settle there. Just like the other coastal towns (Rapata, Tepentor, Kispantor, Xarakatapor) have not been able to stop the refugee surge, I don’t see how our little town would have been able to do it. This could raise some interesting racial tensions in the town. Thoughts?
Now this raises the question of racial composition for our town. I see it as a mainly Jameri/Haid town, with maybe only one or two Jaimani elves, a family or two of Lotana and some Fustier hunters/trappers (usually out of town). Your thoughts on this?
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Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.
And of course there needs to be an inn! ;D - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it ;)
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).
I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.
As to size I think we are looking at just like 300 living in the town in actuality, with the rest of the population i quoted in 20 mile radius. Is this what we are look at?
I must admit to not having a depth of knowledge on Xa-Ar, so I would love all the help I can get in that area. I was thinking that they would get one to two caravans a month during the peak travel times in the year (summer). This would mean that four to five wagons per caravan. I love the idea of the Innkeeper making cheese or the like. Also, I have been rolling around the idea in my mind (lots of room in there) about his wife being the local "apothecary". While that is too strong of a word. While she is above knowing this herb makes a good tea for settling the stomach. She only raises a handful of herbs in her garden, mostly for consumption of her family and neighbors. I have postulated that the Sister helped the Innkeepers wife through her last pregnancy and has stayed on in town as a semi-permanent guest in the inn.
I do not see any case for tourism currently. It is just a larger than normal town. But as our adventurers start poking around they might find things that would bring academics or religious pilgrims from Rapata. But that of course might bring in some unwanted attention from raiders.
-BP
If you make the starting area or population too small then there would be no need for adventurers to be there in the first place. Such as the questions:
-Why would a spell caster be in the town and why
-Why would a thief or rogue want to be in the area that is not worth taking things from
-Only farm roles really for the Laborers
-No need for Scholars as there is not even a small library
-Is the fighter a farmer or militia and does his character skills reflect this
-Would there really be a need or a want for adventure from this area
-Are the characters part of the town locals or are they travelers, if travelers why are they there in the first place
small hamlets are not good for any of these things so a small town with a population of 750-1500 may be a better fit for what you want to do.
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I have tried to list out all the areas that need to be completed, but I'm sure that I have missed some (especially on editorial part). Maybe Terry or Nicholas has some things to add as well? Next I guess we should determine how we want to structure the work; agree on scope, what areas we co-develop, how we systematise it (google docs, developer forum, e-mails, meetings, etc.), who is responsible for what exact area, how long to complete the various tasks, etc. I think it would be good to have a kick-off meeting (google hangouts, skype conference, or something) quite soon so that we can talk through all the various points. We should also come up with a 8) project name. But first I guess we should move this over to the developers section and agree details with Nicholas.
A nice comprehensive list. The only things I can think of immediately are probably subsections of the existing. Such as Getting There (both by road and by sea), Groups (Loremasters, Four Roses etc. even if they are only briefly covered by saying there aren't any) Health, Food, Education, Entertainment and Crime. Also perhaps Adventure Hooks attached to certain locations and NPCs; these being areas for GMs to develop themselves if desired.
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So, what buildings would there be in the settlement, that aren't purely residential? Although most people will probably work and live in the same place. With it being more independent than would typically be the case, I would expect to see some building types that normally wouldn't be seen outside larger areas, even if they are combined use.
So far, we've got at least one inn and tavern, a brewer (I think), a religious structure, a smithy and a mill (water powered). Plus some sort of general purpose town property.
Other possibilities would be a communal oven and communal livestock pens, with the latter perhaps not always used. Then there are craftsmen; cart/wheel wrights for wagons and carpenters as a start, possibly a leather/fur worker, or a tailor. I can see hides/furs being brought in by trappers. The brewers may make their own barrels. A general store for the town, and especially travellers.
Bees seem like a potential crop, so perhaps a candlemaker. Hunters may require bows and arrows. If there's anything made with stone, the perhaps a mason, although that seems much more likely to be a part-time side job. I'm not sure whether separate butchers and bakers would really be justified.
I think we're definitely getting to the point where we need to start splitting things into multiple topics; this one is getting a tad unwieldy.
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A large village / small town isn't going to be self-sufficient. Some of those trades should be present, but others they may need to travel to another village or town to find. They are probably also exporting produce, so take goods to that town to sell, buy needed items there to return with.
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A large village / small town isn't going to be self-sufficient. Some of those trades should be present, but others they may need to travel to another village or town to find. They are probably also exporting produce, so take goods to that town to sell, buy needed items there to return with.
Yes, I can't see local craftsmen being able to produce anything major, but there may be someone in the settlement with the skills to at least attempt something - even if it isn't their day job.
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Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.
And of course there needs to be an inn! ;D - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it ;)
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).
I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.
As to size I think we are looking at just like 300 living in the town in actuality, with the rest of the population i quoted in 20 mile radius. Is this what we are look at?
I must admit to not having a depth of knowledge on Xa-Ar, so I would love all the help I can get in that area. I was thinking that they would get one to two caravans a month during the peak travel times in the year (summer). This would mean that four to five wagons per caravan. I love the idea of the Innkeeper making cheese or the like. Also, I have been rolling around the idea in my mind (lots of room in there) about his wife being the local "apothecary". While that is too strong of a word. While she is above knowing this herb makes a good tea for settling the stomach. She only raises a handful of herbs in her garden, mostly for consumption of her family and neighbors. I have postulated that the Sister helped the Innkeepers wife through her last pregnancy and has stayed on in town as a semi-permanent guest in the inn.
I do not see any case for tourism currently. It is just a larger than normal town. But as our adventurers start poking around they might find things that would bring academics or religious pilgrims from Rapata. But that of course might bring in some unwanted attention from raiders.
-BP
If you make the starting area or population too small then there would be no need for adventurers to be there in the first place. Such as the questions:
-Why would a spell caster be in the town and why
-Why would a thief or rogue want to be in the area that is not worth taking things from
-Only farm roles really for the Laborers
-No need for Scholars as there is not even a small library
-Is the fighter a farmer or militia and does his character skills reflect this
-Would there really be a need or a want for adventure from this area
-Are the characters part of the town locals or are they travelers, if travelers why are they there in the first place
small hamlets are not good for any of these things so a small town with a population of 750-1500 may be a better fit for what you want to do.
Hmmmm. I agree with the population I was setting this around 500 (total). The town would be a place of commerce. The small river allows for the sending of good to the town. Also I have set a mill there. The paved (Old Kingdom) road allows for the easy of getting these goods to the "big cities". Also there are a few docks, mostly for fishing boats, but from time to time ( a few times a year) a merchantman pulls in to town.
I was seeing the characters (at least in the first adventures) to be locals and very low levels. So the spell casters would just be learning. And as for the rogue...they all have to be from somewhere and start some place. I grew up with a person that became a very accomplished thief, and my home town was around 1,500.
-BP
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That is why such a small town is not really relevant enough to start things. If looking to support multiple characters with multiple professions. The Magic professions except maybe the healer or cleric will need to have a bigger populace to be present. Even if run from a house or travelling to a center for learning it would require a larger population. To start an adventurer out with basic equipment would mean a store that is more than a tiny shop. It would need to be a general supply store and a blacksmith with a forge or importing of weapons. This would mean some sense of economy for the sustaining of the these practices. There also may be a church / school house for the youngsters in the area which the adventurers come from and know each other from.
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A large village / small town isn't going to be self-sufficient. Some of those trades should be present, but others they may need to travel to another village or town to find. They are probably also exporting produce, so take goods to that town to sell, buy needed items there to return with.
Yes, I can't see local craftsmen being able to produce anything major, but there may be someone in the settlement with the skills to at least attempt something - even if it isn't their day job.
Eg,
Could you define "major". I was thinking the local blacksmith as being able to fix a plow, it make a few farm implements. But is about it. Are we on the same lines of thought here?
-BP
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Looking at the towns nearest it (Tepentor and Rapata) the racial mix is mostly Jameri with Haid coming the next most populace. In the larger town there are some Elves, so one or two making there way here might not be beyons imagination (if there was a reason for them to move here).
-BP
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If the town supports commerce and travel such as Inns and wheelwrights and such then it could be viable for most professions. The Paladin would be a far stretch but a Ranger would fit in well. A Bard would be local talent or traveling apprentice of such. This may work for the other magic professions or may have a hermit that teaches in exchange for living or is a fugitive that is in hiding and is teaching to either make a living or is working for some other goal / nefarious means.
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A large village / small town isn't going to be self-sufficient. Some of those trades should be present, but others they may need to travel to another village or town to find. They are probably also exporting produce, so take goods to that town to sell, buy needed items there to return with.
Yes, I can't see local craftsmen being able to produce anything major, but there may be someone in the settlement with the skills to at least attempt something - even if it isn't their day job.
Eg,
Could you define "major". I was thinking the local blacksmith as being able to fix a plow, it make a few farm implements. But is about it. Are we on the same lines of thought here?
-BP
Yes, I think we are. A simple dagger is possible; a fine sword is not. Likewise, simple furniture is possible; an elegant dining suite is not. I would imagine that cheap and functional would be the standard of most craftsmen, even if it's well made cheap and functional. Most medieval settlements were surprisingly self-supporting for the general items they consumed. Even if this settlement is late medieval/early Renaissance, I would expect it, and the surrounding area, to produce most everyday items.
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Looking at the towns nearest it (Tepentor and Rapata) the racial mix is mostly Jameri with Haid coming the next most populace. In the larger town there are some Elves, so one or two making there way here might not be beyons imagination (if there was a reason for them to move here).
-BP
I think there are enough elves in Xa-ar, or have been, that having at least a few in the immediate area, or even in the town, is plausible.
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Looking at the towns nearest it (Tepentor and Rapata) the racial mix is mostly Jameri with Haid coming the next most populace. In the larger town there are some Elves, so one or two making there way here might not be beyons imagination (if there was a reason for them to move here).
-BP
I think there are enough elves in Xa-ar, or have been, that having at least a few in the immediate area, or even in the town, is plausible.
Perhaps not in town proper, but just outside. This is due to the differences in world view of the mortal and immortal. The elf(ves) would see the mortals scurrying around and doing "busy work". So they live outside of town and come in just to trade (when needed).
-BP
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It looks as if the town will provide - at a stretch - for at least the possibility of most professions. Might need some sort of retired monastic-type to provide training in martial arts for local ne'er-do-wells or contemplatives. Perhaps some of the Elves in the hinterland might also take local magically-inclined individuals under their wing.
There's also the possibility that a renowned and civic-spirited scholar might be in the vicinity - on retreat for a year or so, taking in the rustic vibes whilst editing and finishing their magnum opus and, distressed at the state of education in the sticks, provides some rudimentary training in the SW equivalent of the Trivium and Quadrivium: enough whet the appetite for knowledge in a few young minds.
And of course, there's always the retired disaffected noble in their dilapidated villa, willing to trade knowledge of blacker arts for various favours, or even the cruel satisfaction of perverting one more soul...
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Well the darker side of the professions might be provided by the Quaidu refugees present in small numbers. Of course, they would be transient (staying only a few months) mostly because the Jameri tend to show then the town gate if they stay too long.
-BP
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Looking at the towns nearest it (Tepentor and Rapata) the racial mix is mostly Jameri with Haid coming the next most populace. In the larger town there are some Elves, so one or two making there way here might not be beyons imagination (if there was a reason for them to move here).
-BP
I think there are enough elves in Xa-ar, or have been, that having at least a few in the immediate area, or even in the town, is plausible.
Perhaps not in town proper, but just outside. This is due to the differences in world view of the mortal and immortal. The elf(ves) would see the mortals scurrying around and doing "busy work". So they live outside of town and come in just to trade (when needed).
-BP
It would also be possible for any elves to belong to the Order of the Thorn, and they could be used to introduce that organisation. Erlini elves, or rather the local Jaimani-Elf subgroup of that type, would seem to be the most likely. They are also less likely to dwell in a town in general than Loar elves are.
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A nice comprehensive list. The only things I can think of immediately are probably subsections of the existing. Such as Getting There (both by road and by sea), Groups (Loremasters, Four Roses etc. even if they are only briefly covered by saying there aren't any) Health, Food, Education, Entertainment and Crime. Also perhaps Adventure Hooks attached to certain locations and NPCs; these being areas for GMs to develop themselves if desired.
Thx! I added those to the list.
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The paved (Old Kingdom) road allows for the easy of getting these goods to the "big cities".
-BP
If I'm not completely mistaken, the majestic old kingdom road ends in Rapata, but this road could very well still be paved. Just not as big and well made as the old kingdom one.
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Ooops, you are right. The map does show it ending in Rapata. If we want this on the Old Kingdom road we would have to forget the coastal village. Any votes? I still think the road between to larger towns would be as well traveled as any in the area.
-BP
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The map shows a dirt road. These can often be fine most of the time for travel, and there are enough settlements further west for it to be well travelled. However, it could turn into a mud trap in adverse conditions.
Not sure of the precise dates off the top of my head, but after Britain lost the Roman roads, most of the major routes weren't that good until probably the 18th or 19th centuries. So dirt roads don't mean a lack of travel, and most of the settlements will be reachable by boat as well.
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And crime?!?! In our peaceful berg? Nonsense...just pay the ...tax. I would not want to have to ask a few of my Quaidu associates to ensure the collection of the tax. You do like you ears in their current position? And any more talk of crime and I will have your legs broken. ;D
In all seriousness, would you see the town able to afford a Sheriff a a few deputies (say 5-6). The pay might be as little as a place to stay (in someones home) and hot meals. But it would be a drain on the economy of the town, but might help in commerce. I see the sheriff as a fighter and the deputies more or less untrained amateurs.
-BP
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I think most of the crime between locals would be fairly minor, with various assaults and arguments over payments being the most common. However, travellers might be involved in something more serious. A single part-time law officer with some equally part-time enforcers would be common in a medieval village; here, payment for a full-time sheriff and some deputies could come from trade income. Or, to add some potential corruption, from fines levied. A sheriff could be a former soldier or mercenary; such types often retired to run farms and inns and could easily choose a sheriff's job as well.
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I could see a sherif in town, but likely it would be somebody's second job or something. Maybe an ex. mercenary who has returned home or something...
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I could see a sherif in town, but likely it would be somebody's second job or something. Maybe an ex. mercenary who has returned home or something...
Maybe a person that was born in town went off to find his way and has returned after being wounded.
-BP
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The various local and global powers that operate in the area, and how likely I think they are to be in the settlement.
Only if passing through:
Loremaster
Navigators
Priests Arnak
Ulor
May have people:
Brotherhood of the Four Roses
Order of the Elder
The Winter Light
Do have people:
Cult of the Blue Dragon
Sisters of Ginh Tarn
Unlikely, but possible:
The Alliance
Other trade organisations from Eidolon, Rhakhaan and independent
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Here are my thoughts on the issue mentioned above. I will giv ethe likelyhood I see of the factions being represented.
Loremaster - So improbable as to be impossible
Navigators - Very rare, but the is an obelisk hidden in the area some place near Rapata
Priests Arnak - Very rare, but might be passing through
Ulor - Some of the Quaidu refugees could be Ulor spies. And raids could happen.
May have people:
Brotherhood of the Four Roses - Again, just passing through hardly registering the town
Order of the Elder - Perhaps, if something special is uncovered
The Winter Light - There are members in Rapata, so maybe
Do have people:
Cult of the Blue Dragon - Local healer and priest
Sisters of Ginh Tarn - Midwife, living in the Inn currently
Unlikely, but possible:
The Alliance
Other trade organisations from Eidolon, Rhakhaan and independent
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Unlikely, but possible:
The Alliance
Other trade organisations from Eidolon, Rhakhaan and independent
Left off my comments about the later. I see those as being in Rapata. If one is in the village it is after a few adventures and they are brought here to broker a deal.
-BP
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With the Loremasters and Navigators, the place is on the main road to further west, so Navigators could be escorting a party west (or east again) and Loremasters could also be passing through going west, or east. In either case, they aren't likely to be there longer than a night. The Four Roses and the Elder are respectively Quaidu and Elven influenced. It's slightly possible that any of either race in the area might be affiliated in some way.
The settlement probably isn't large enough for the trading organisations, but the Intani Traders might be the most likely.
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With the Loremasters and Navigators, the place is on the main road to further west, so Navigators could be escorting a party west (or east again) and Loremasters could also be passing through going west, or east. In either case, they aren't likely to be there longer than a night. The Four Roses and the Elder are respectively Quaidu and Elven influenced. It's slightly possible that any of either race in the area might be affiliated in some way.
The settlement probably isn't large enough for the trading organisations, but the Intani Traders might be the most likely.
I can see some influence of the Four Roses in town, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I thin the locals would give the boot to the influence (and the Quaidu) as soon as possible. But the influence my be ongoing as you kick one spy out another takes his/her place. The Elder would be more subtle with the agent being deep in the shadows.
Just where is the Navigator's obelisk? i cannot find it on the map.
-BP
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For the Four Roses, I would think a mild adherent would be more likely than an outright spy. Elder operates more openly, so if there is anyone in the order, locals will probably know about it. It's only what it is actually after that is hidden.
The Obelisk is on the Rapata town map (p.53).
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I thought there was another one someplace in Xa-ar in a unused valley. Of course, I am most likely wrong. With the cost of one of these mites one would not be left unused.
-BP
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I thought there was another one someplace in Xa-ar in a unused valley. Of course, I am most likely wrong. With the cost of one of these mites one would not be left unused.
-BP
I thought I'd read a reference to the one in Rapata being in a valley above the time, but I can't find the reference.
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I think it's important to build some of the local/global influences in this adventure, even if it's a minion's minion's minion. This will help us give this adventure a SW flavour rather than just being a generic fantasy village/adventure. My thoughts on the local/global influences:
Loremaster: I can very well see a Loremaster pass through from time to time. Now the people in town might not even know the person to be a Loremaster. Niko Verano (the junior Loremaster of the area) is an excellent choice. This is what TKA says of him: "A Lotana Bard, Niko is unusually tall for his people, and in fact there is some Loar Elf blood in his ancestry, which would also explain his relatively youthful appearance for a man of almost fifty years. Unlike Vena— who values her solitude—Niko is a gregarious fellow with many friends in the area. He has an apartment in Rapata, but frequently travels west throughout Xa-ar. He does meet with his elder Loremaster Vena on a fairly regular basis to review the situation in the region." I can see him as a traveling bard visiting the town a few times a year on his travels.
Navigator: Only when a wealthy trade caravan passes through (or some other wealthy individual/group). Maybe once per year.
Priest Arnak: As said, only passing through.
Ulor: I personally see the influence of Ulor and the Quaidu as greater than just a nuisances that can be kicked out of town whenever needed. Many larger and better equipped towns have not been able to rid themselves of them, so why is this town any different? The Quaidu are big, strong, trained and well armed so I think the town would have a hard time just kicking them out. On the contrary I think the town would run the risk of being held hostage by the Quaidu minority. This could lead to interesting adventure once the PC's gain a bit of experience. With the recent influx of Quaidu, I could very well see one of them being an informant to the 4 Roses.
Order of the Elder: One of the elven inhabitants could be a member?
The Winter Light: Maybe one of the Lotana inhabitants (or his/her relative who has moved in) is a member currently recruiting more people to join the fight against the Quaidu settlers?
Cult of the Blue Dragon: I don't see the cult being present unless there is a significant (more than a couple of families) Lotana presence in town. The Cult is more active further west (there is nothing beyond Rapata).
Sisters of Ginh Tarn: I think we have settled for the midwife.
The Alliance and other Trade Organisations: Not yet at least...
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Although the Cult of the Blue Dragon's influence is stronger in the west than the east, it's plausible that there could be a temple in the settlement, especially if it is mostly Lotana. Plus, some sort of religious personage is needed (for one thing, they could have an acolyte, or potential PC), and the Cult would seem to be a better regional choice than something like the United Orhan Church (although Iloura is an option).
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Some timeline thoughts.
When was the settlement founded, and by what nation/race? Was something on the site during the Second Era and, if so, was it invaded by Ulor during that era.
Did Ulor invade/garrison the settlement during the more recent Third Era invasion?
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The settlement, given its location, is probably a decent, but imperfect, place to have a town. It's entirely possible that there has been a settlement on the site since the Second Era, but if it had been a perfect site I would expect it to be bigger. Given the location on the map where I thing it would be, west of Rapata in a narrow, mountainous neck of land, it looks like it would be very close to the Saral March/Kaldsfang Mountains, so arable land could be limited. Much of the farming could be sheep.
If the local priest belongs to the Cult of the Blue Dragon, I would expect the majority of the population to be Lotana.
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Okay, here are some jottings.
c-40k to -20k Jinteni mine the Saral March
SEI c1500 Fishing settlement founded on the location. Village expands, with farmers, miners and trappers coming into the area.
1930 Settlement becomes part of Xa-ar
3833 Lorgalis invades the town
c6825 Wars of Dominion. Town utterly destroyed.
TEI c1000 Settlement rebuilt.
c5000 Lotana settle in the area
c5121 Town conquered again by Lorgalis
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Okay, here are some jottings.
c-40k to -20k Jinteni mine the Saral March
SEI c1500 Fishing settlement founded on the location. Village expands, with farmers, miners and trappers coming into the area.
1930 Settlement becomes part of Xa-ar
3833 Lorgalis invades the town
c6825 Wars of Dominion. Town utterly destroyed.
TEI c1000 Settlement rebuilt.
c5000 Lotana settle in the area
c5121 Town conquered again by Lorgalis
Hmmmm, I will pull out my Xa-ar Source book, but I have no issues with this. I just want to make sure we all are working from the same starting point in time. I thought we had tossed out starting around 6053 or so. Just as Lorgalis it trying to re-reconquer the area (Will he never learn?)
-BP
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Some of the dates are cribbed directly from the Xa-ar book, so they shouldn't contradict anything. More detail and dates could probably do with adding though. Perhaps a pull-out date of any Ulor troops, as the settlement is quite minor, and they would be needed elsewhere. It would seem likely that Quaidu still occasionally visit to extort a bit of money from the place.
Lorgalis has managed to successfully conquer to region twice. Keeping it has proven a little more difficult, mostly due to lack of troops.
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I have seen he has conquered the area twice, but been overthrown each time. Got to love this conquered that try again and again. Gives us something t write about :D
I see the Quaidu in the area as transient. The local population would not allow a build up, because as mention in previous posts they are big, armed and can use the arms. In town 2 or 3 might nor be too big of an issue, but more than that and they would run the town. Therefore the sheriff run then out (with help) in ones and twos after a few days.
-BP
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There are transient, but probably comparatively powerful, groups of Quaidu roaming the region extracting "tribute for Ulor." These groups may be too large to defend against without too much potential loss; simply paying them a fee may be far more cost effective.
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There are transient, but probably comparatively powerful, groups of Quaidu roaming the region extracting "tribute for Ulor." These groups may be too large to defend against without too much potential loss; simply paying them a fee may be far more cost effective.
I see this happening in the farm lands around the town a lot. Even small numbers the farmers would not be a match and would gladly pay them what they want. I can see in town I can see the populace paying up for large groups. Smaller ones would be kicked out.
-BP
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Yes, groups of half a dozen Quaidu or so would be a threat to smaller communities, but not to the town. Groups of a couple of dozen and more would be a greater threat. Whilst perhaps not big enough to realistically damage the town all that much, they could easily wreck havoc in the surrounding area, causing long-term damage to crops, livestock and income, and the town would be unlikely to have a mobile force capable of taking the field against armed soldiers. Or, at least, not more than once.
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I think we are in agreement. Page 15 of the Xa-ar Source book mentions in the summer of 6053 the Quaidu forces are "fragmented and disorganized" and that "civilian populations are beginning to rise up". So maybe the town is trying to gain control over this as the Ulor forces flow north. So I think in the farmlands readily pay them. I can see some of them seeing town merchants as almost the same thing. I see the "townies" as wanting to buy cheap and sell dear.
I know I seem to be fixated on this but it lets me know what the political/social standing in the town currently. I see a small council, with a mayor elected from the council. There are factions in town that are fighting behind the scenes. Ideas? Agreements?
-BP
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Good discussion! I agree and think it's important to lock these things in before proceeding. My only question is that why the Quaidu refugees have not banded together and just "take" the town? Is it too poor and shabby, too hostile, or is there something else keeping them at bay (order of elder or winter light)???
Another thing to lock in is racial composition. Jameri/Haid/Lotana/Elves. This will determine many things as well (like the presence of the dragon cult etc).
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Well we are talking a days easy ride out of Rapata. I do not know if the city has a military force (I assume some force is required). I would not see the civic leaders allowing a Ulor (Quaidu) force to establish itself that close. If it was more than a day or so away then the loss of a coastal fishing village might not be a blip on the radar.
So the nearness of reinforcements, a mediocre defensive position, citizens willing to fight all added up to moving on and pillaging farms where you can get what you want (food, shelter and the like) at an easier cost.
Of course, a towns person having a connection to the Winter's Light, might be a twist. In a future adventure the party must sneak out of besieged town and get word to Rapata (Not like I have planned that... :P )
-BP
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OK, you all have to admit your mind when to a young boy jumping on a horse and riding east yelling "The Quaidu are coming!!"
-BP
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The town is some distance from the Quaidu's real strong points, so I would assume their forces are limited this far east, especially as Rapata kicked out their overlords 100 years ago, and would be unlikely to tolerate a significant presence on their doorstep.
For the racial makeup, I'm assuming more Lotana than is common thus far east. Partly so we can have a Blue Dragon cultist and justified by there being more Lotana in Rapata than most of the eastern towns.
The mayor and council sound fine, but I think any factions will be limited - the town is simply too small to have many.
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If there is more Lotana than usual here, why is that a case? Holy ground? Historical significance? Dragon sighting? Maybe the Blue Dragon used to visit the Jinteni mines? This could also mean that some townies have Winter Light connections.
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How unified are the Quaidu? Would it make sense to have Quaidu deserters? They might be more interested in disappearing from the rest of the Quaidu forces than in conquering (though people may not trust that). A small, inconsequential town suits that purpose. Not sure if it makes sense for them, just tossing it out there.
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If there is more Lotana than usual here, why is that a case? Holy ground? Historical significance? Dragon sighting? Maybe the Blue Dragon used to visit the Jinteni mines? This could also mean that some townies have Winter Light connections.
There would appear to be more Lotana in Rapata than is usually seen this far east, going by the guidebook, so I would therefore assume there would be a temple of the Cult in the city and more Lotana in the surrounding are (overspill from the city). Perhaps this comes from a historical sighting of the Blue Dragon some years back. And yes, with more Lotana, I would assume a greater chance of the Winter Light. Also, the Lotana are some of the most resistant to Ulor's rule.
Regarding the Order of the Elder, Vanimar Krissa apparently has a house just outside Rapata. He could therefore be near enough to interact with the players.
Yes, some Quaidu are probably looking to properly desert, rather than just doing their own thing. Whether or not they are welcomed is a different question.
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This brings in a plot for a PC who is Quaidu and may be looking to desert or get information. Could be interesting as a player who everyone wants to kill or run out of town until he/she proves themselves. Or could be a person of interest in the town that owns a business (blacksmith, wheelwright, carpenter or something) that acts as a contact with rumors or information. Could give out side quest for some reason that may or may not help or hinder the shadow arc plot through the modules.
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Terry, what levels are the various Rapata adventures aimed at (I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here I admit; not unusual). There's Rose Petals & Snow Lions from GA2, as well as the three in the Xa-ar sourcebook.
Continuing with the getting ahead of myself theme, one possible long term plot would be to deal with the Orb of Unlife; this doesn't have an actual adventure in Xa-ar, just a location description.
Back to the Lotana again, there are enough in Rapata that they have two or three temples in the city, so a Lotana-dominated village close to the city is definitely plausible.
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How unified are the Quaidu? Would it make sense to have Quaidu deserters? They might be more interested in disappearing from the rest of the Quaidu forces than in conquering (though people may not trust that). A small, inconsequential town suits that purpose. Not sure if it makes sense for them, just tossing it out there.
OK, not letting real life be injected here, but my experience in the Middle East would show that bands of armed fighters are a real issue. In Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq I saw small groups of armed thugs holding villages and "consuming" natural resources. The fact that they had weapons and some training made them more than enough to terrorize the locals.
Those villages that successfully resisted had weapons (usually taken from previous bands) and the training of resiting in the past. They also knew the area better than the thugs. As mention previously I see them as a small band, maybe as smalls 4-5 Quaidu. They are just fleeing the fighting in the South and trying to find a place to hide from Ulor. Only a few would be hardened and what we see as evil. The later would not be satisfied with being paid off.
As for racial make-up I can only go with the Xa-ar sourcebook. On page 23 TKA mentions the two places what we are using as the linchpins of the area, Tepentor to the west and Rapata to the East. In Tepentor the Lotana are not even mentioned. While in the larger town, Ratapa, the Lotana are mentioned. I am assuming American product listing methods here so I might be wrong, but he mentions Jameri as the majority (barely), followed bu Haid, and then the Lotana.
I am not against having the Lotana in the area, I am just not understanding the need to have them as a majority in the town. If it is to have a priest of the Blue Dragon that can be handled by having several of the farmhold on the eastern side of the towns influence being Lotana in make-up. They have moved out of Rapata in the last few generations. The Priest has come her as a basis of gathering supplies, i.e. Herbs from the Innkeepers wife. Since we have determined the area of influence of the town to be about 20 miles, this could be explained.
Is the Cult of the Blue Dragon necessary for an adventure hook you have in mind?
-BP
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The Cult isn't really essential for an adventure hook (although perhaps it could be), but it's the only real religion that's native to the area, other than the Sisters of Ginh Tanh, who don't have worshippers, so it would be nice to have it present, to add local flavour, rather than one of the more generic religions. I think that if there are enough Lotana in Rapata to have two or three Cult temples, than there's a good chance a local village may have enough for a temple, although not a village to the east of the city, going by the sourcebook. For the local priest to be a member of the Cult, a significant Lotana population would appear to be needed, so I would assume that in a small town that could easily mean Lotana-dominated. Of course, that could merely mean that they are the largest minority, with no one race having a majority. Or do we have more than one major religion in the town?
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Regarding Lotana presence, I have no preference one way or the other. My only point (earlier) was that if we want to have the Cult of the Blue Dragon present, we need a larger Lotana presence than just a couple of families (the original thinking). This does not mean that we need a Lotana majority. Just more than a few families (maybe 100 people?). Also Lotana is more focused in the west so we need to think what draws them this far east (like e.g. the sighting of the blue dragon). So one way or another is perfectly fine as long as there is a rationale for it.
The same applies to the Quaidu. As you said BP, just a handful of experienced and well armed men can easily hold a village and suck it of it's resources, so if the village has been able to deter them, there need to be reason for it (e.g. good fortification, access to arms, ex. men-at-arms in the village, etc.)
Even if we are to include Lotana and the dragon cult, I think most people of the village will be followers of Neela and Iloura.
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I don't think it would be too hard to justify there being a hundred or so Lotana west of Rapata. I would guess there would be at least 1,000 in the city itself. I don't think you could really justify them east of the city though.
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I don't think it would be too hard to justify there being a hundred or so Lotana west of Rapata. I would guess there would be at least 1,000 in the city itself. I don't think you could really justify them east of the city though.
agree
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OK, have we agreed that to the east (toward Rapata) there will be several farm holds (a few hundred people that are not counted in the town population figures) that are of Lotana decent? Also, could there the an annual festival of the Cult of the Blue Dragon (I cannot find one, just wondering). This might be held in the town to bring in the local Lotana, and increase trade. I am kind of thinking of the Blessing of the Fishing fleet in many countries as the fishing season gets underway. Maybe a blessing of the plow or the like and the town has a big multi-day festival to do the ritual and to have businesses (blacksmith and the like) trade wares. Sheep can be brought in and sold to increase the viability of local flocks.
-BP
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So, is the priest in the actual town a member of the Cult then? If so, I would expect some of the town's population to be Lotana, otherwise they'd probably just have temples at their homes.
Yes, there are several annual festivals at the solstices and equinoxes, with the Winter Solstice being the most important.
The Cult apparently gets its power from Teris, who is the messenger of the gods. Not sure what other responsibilities he has, or how that aligns with the Cult.
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Actually looking at the source book I see the Lotana having home shrines and maybe a larger shrine in the center of a farm stead that borders on several farms. I can see the town holding a festival around the winter soltuice (if travel is an option then). But due to the main make up of the larger towns on either side I cannot see this being a Lotana town or having a huge Lotana cultural influence. Also the size of the town might have a single priest. It would take a large outlay of resources (a single person worth) to maintain a priest. If this person is the local Anamist or healer I can see the populace not begrudging the cost. Beyond that it would be a HUGE drag on the local economy.
I could see a minor priest wandering through the area on a route several times a year. This means that the Lotana populace would have access to the Cult and there would be a known presence. But I think the major Lotana population is further west than here. Some being near the city of Rapata because f the 2-3 shrines can be justified, but I think the major racial make up would be Jameri with Haid as the next largest population. Lotana could make up perhaps 10-15% of the population in the town's sphere of influence.
Am I totally out to lunch?
-BP
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I think we need some sort of priest in the town (and an English community of the same size would have definitely had a priest, in a rather well built church, and they certainly didn't heal people). If nothing else, a priest allows for a player character of the appropriate religious types, as an acolyte if nothing else. The reason I like the Lotana, even if they aren't dominant this far east, is because they are distinctive to the area. It seems possible to me that, as there are Lotana in the area in Rapata, that outside the city they could tend to cluster together. So, rather than having half a dozen communities with a few Lotana, there could be one with a lot of them.
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I am not ignoring this post I an thinking it over. This and it is the end of the pay period for my folks are delaying my post.
-BP
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If there is Lotana presence in the region, I think it's highly likely that they would also be found inside the town (maybe 100 individuals or so) and I also think that a Lotana presence would add extra flavor to the town. However, the majority would still likely be Jamer and Haid. I also think that most people would be worshipers of Neela (for those earning their livelihood from the sea) and Iloura (for the farmers). I think we could design a worship around either of these two deities as well.
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Regarding Neela, it seems likely that people would also make at least some sort of service to Shaal. They might like Neela better, but I doubt anyone using the sea would risk angering the rather erratic god of it.
Having several groups of worshippers in the town/area would open up more player options, even if it is a bit more unlikely.
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OK I am heading to the Dentist today ad she is never on-time. This will give me some time to mull this over. Let me work out a demographic lay out and then populate the religious facilities (most likely shrines).
Using a 500 person population 100 would be a minority, but still significant. I think we can also use a myth that the Blue Dragon was once seen in the area as a draw to these people. It does not need to be factual, the rumor would be enough.
-BP
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One would also need to set actual PC professions and why they are in the town. If for example you have clerics and paladins then a religion that supports them will have to be present. Rangers are easy in these parts as well as Laborers, Fighters, Thieves, Rouges and possibly Magicians, Mystics, Mentalist. The choice of Healer and Lay Healer would be interesting as this will either be one or the other but not both due to the smaller population. I see the Lay Healer as the more likely unless religion based populace. I really don't see a need for the Illusionist, Sorcerer, Monk, Warrior Monk, Dabbler, Magent or Scholar in this area unless visiting or passing through. The Paladin and Cleric would be in most accounts not really from the area in the religions that you have listed except the Cleric of the dominant religion, the others could have a traveling Cleric for the holy days and seasonal blessings.
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The Kaldsfang Mountains are sometimes called Irkuugor’s Spine, and they are by the looks of it pretty close where we are placing the town, or at least the western region of the mountains. So a sighting of the Blue Dragon near the mountains seems quite reasonable and believable.
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One would also need to set actual PC professions and why they are in the town. If for example you have clerics and paladins then a religion that supports them will have to be present. Rangers are easy in these parts as well as Laborers, Fighters, Thieves, Rouges and possibly Magicians, Mystics, Mentalist. The choice of Healer and Lay Healer would be interesting as this will either be one or the other but not both due to the smaller population. I see the Lay Healer as the more likely unless religion based populace. I really don't see a need for the Illusionist, Sorcerer, Monk, Warrior Monk, Dabbler, Magent or Scholar in this area unless visiting or passing through. The Paladin and Cleric would be in most accounts not really from the area in the religions that you have listed except the Cleric of the dominant religion, the others could have a traveling Cleric for the holy days and seasonal blessings.
Yes, there need to be justifications for as many character classes as possible, so that players have the most choice. With it being on a main road, there will be more passing traffic through the town, so that could be used as a justification for some classes; they were passing through just at the right time.
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Now that you have a predominant Race guide to go by a list of the races for the area will need more detail as far as physical racial descriptions, favorite professions, Cultural beliefs, favorite weapons, favorite religions, favorite clothes (robes, pants and shirt, drab or bright colors), Common names would be nice for PC's or as a source to use with the race in creating PC's and NPC's. Since there is no real source book for these descriptions this will add an element to the people and will provide a great source material for GM's in the future.
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Now that you have a predominant Race guide to go by a list of the races for the area will need more detail as far as physical racial descriptions, favorite professions, Cultural beliefs, favorite weapons, favorite religions, favorite clothes (robes, pants and shirt, drab or bright colors), Common names would be nice for PC's or as a source to use with the race in creating PC's and NPC's. Since there is no real source book for these descriptions this will add an element to the people and will provide a great source material for GM's in the future.
Sort of what I was hoping for; a module that is useful for the area it covers and what it adds to the world, and not just for the adventure.
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Now that you have a predominant Race guide to go by a list of the races for the area will need more detail as far as physical racial descriptions, favorite professions, Cultural beliefs, favorite weapons, favorite religions, favorite clothes (robes, pants and shirt, drab or bright colors), Common names would be nice for PC's or as a source to use with the race in creating PC's and NPC's. Since there is no real source book for these descriptions this will add an element to the people and will provide a great source material for GM's in the future.
This is why I have stalled on town creation, I have been waiting to get this laid out. Once this is done I can flesh out the ideas floating around my pointed little head.
-BP
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OL, how about 75 Lotana in the town. Based on a total population of 500 this would be 15% being Lotana. I can come up with the rest of the figures after this being agreed upon.
This would allow the possibility of a minor priest of the Blue Dragon being in Town. I have plans to have a local Lotana merchant on the town council.
Ideas? Comments? Am I crazy on this point? (Notice I limited the response.). 8)
-BP
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I think the question between the Church of Iloura or the Church of Neela/Shaal being the dominate in the town would be whether the townsfolk see themselves as a farming or fishing village. This would determine the dominate religion in town. I see the Priest of the Blue Dragon having a major portion of his home converted into a church, but the dominate religion would have the church build specifically for that purpose.
In my preliminary thoughts there was a Church of Iloura in town and a small unmanned shrine to Neela and Shaal down at the dock area. But I can easily swap those around depending how we see the flavor of the town.
Comments? Questions?
-BP
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That sounds like a sufficiently decent population size. With Rapata near by, it should be self-sustaining.
Who should the others be? Primarily Jameri and Haidic with a few others? If others, do we have at least a few from all the other major groups; Quaidu, Fustir, Jaimeni Elves, Zor and Syrkakar? Perhaps some outsiders as well?
Of the races mentioned in Xa-ar, I think only the Syrkakar have really been covered in any detail (maybe the Fustir-Gost for some details on the Fustir) and that in The Iron Wind. Most of the others have just got brief descriptions in the Master Atlas, although for the Lotana you'd have to look up the Y'nar.
I think I would consider the village to be more fishing than farming oriented. Looking at the region map, I think the farming would be quite poor, so I would imagine most food comes from the sea, with some arable crops around the village and sheep in the foothills of the mountain.
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The interesting issue is that most people do not know what those races are and descriptions are at a minimum. Are they humans, elves, dwarves, races that are not known about in any fantasy realm.... This really needs to be thought through and I agree that the races and descriptions would only enhance SW as a whole. When using systems such as ERA to create characters it is hard to find out what to use for races as there is minimal descriptions and no regions listed for favorite population region to go from. So a short Guide as to what is common in the region with descriptions would go very far.
Languages is another sore point in the SW system as there is no complete list of languages to list.
How many different languages are there?
How many are spoken in the region?
Are they open to be learned by anyone or only a specific or few races?
What is the creature or enemy language (ork, goblin, gark, ECT...)?
Is there a trade speech or common tongue or is it just regional?
This is a sore point with me about SW because there are only a few examples and character development suffers from this point.
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I think it would be a good idea to copy the Racial Summary boxes found in things like Emer III for those races that need it. These have the following topics:
Racial Origins
Political Structure
Technology
Architecture
Clothing
Military Structure
Social Structure
Economy
Language
Appearance/Attire
Subsistence Pattern/Diet
Worship
Culture Notes
Perhaps with a sidebar of all the different local languages spoken as well for easy reference.
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Looking at the racial brake down of Tepentor to the west and Rapata to the east we could say about 60% Jameri, 25% Haid, and 15% Lotana. The rest would account for just around 10-15 people and would be a mix if Quaidu, Fustir, and elf or two. The rest would more likely be travelers.
Good? Bad?
-BP
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The interesting issue is that most people do not know what those races are and descriptions are at a minimum. Are they humans, elves, dwarves, races that are not known about in any fantasy realm.... This really needs to be thought through and I agree that the races and descriptions would only enhance SW as a whole. When using systems such as ERA to create characters it is hard to find out what to use for races as there is minimal descriptions and no regions listed for favorite population region to go from. So a short Guide as to what is common in the region with descriptions would go very far.
I have started to look around at the different materials to see what I can find about the different races (physical descriptions, culture differences and the like) and have found that I need to hit several different sources. I am wondering if the culture of a race here would be different than the same race say further south, due to environmental difference and a blending of racial norms.
Languages is another sore point in the SW system as there is no complete list of languages to list.
How many different languages are there?
How many are spoken in the region?
Are they open to be learned by anyone or only a specific or few races?
What is the creature or enemy language (ork, goblin, gark, ECT...)?
Is there a trade speech or common tongue or is it just regional?
This is a sore point with me about SW because there are only a few examples and character development suffers from this point.
Man, I have yet to determine the racial make up... This is why most fantasy setting use a Common tongue. :) But I would try to determine the language spoken best in this area and say everyone can at least understand it and speak enough to trade amongst themselves. After that a listing of languages available to learn. Is that OK?
-BP
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Jaimani-Erlin is a common tongue on Jaiman, and there are also several dialects of Rhaya.
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Yeah sorry for the brainstorming, I just had an issue with the languages or lack of list of them and knowing that characters are created with starter languages has been a thorn due to a lack of the list. Region does play a big role on what language is considered common such as Shay VS Jaimari or Rhaya. The with the addition of Quaidu and others raises the question of what is available in the region.
I think it would be a good idea to copy the Racial Summary boxes found in things like Emer III for those races that need it. These have the following topics:
Racial Origins
Political Structure
Technology
Architecture
Clothing
Military Structure
Social Structure
Economy
Language
Appearance/Attire
Subsistence Pattern/Diet
Worship
Culture Notes
Perhaps with a sidebar of all the different local languages spoken as well for easy reference.
This would be very useful and a good resource for region and adventures in SW as a Whole. The Atlas is great but a SW racial guide with languages as well as the above would be hugely beneficial especially to me as I keep just using the core races for RMSS rather than delve into the SW races due to lack of information in a guide that has this information in one area. Races, descriptions, regions common, languages common, outlook as a group would reflect tremendously and be a handy source book.
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Yeah sorry for the brainstorming, I just had an issue with the languages or lack of list of them and knowing that characters are created with starter languages has been a thorn due to a lack of the list. Region does play a big role on what language is considered common such as Shay VS Jaimari or Rhaya. The with the addition of Quaidu and others raises the question of what is available in the region.
I think it would be a good idea to copy the Racial Summary boxes found in things like Emer III for those races that need it. These have the following topics:
Racial Origins
Political Structure
Technology
Architecture
Clothing
Military Structure
Social Structure
Economy
Language
Appearance/Attire
Subsistence Pattern/Diet
Worship
Culture Notes
Perhaps with a sidebar of all the different local languages spoken as well for easy reference.
This would be very useful and a good resource for region and adventures in SW as a Whole. The Atlas is great but a SW racial guide with languages as well as the above would be hugely beneficial especially to me as I keep just using the core races for RMSS rather than delve into the SW races due to lack of information in a guide that has this information in one area. Races, descriptions, regions common, languages common, outlook as a group would reflect tremendously and be a handy source book.
No! the brainstorming is great!!! I am just addingthis to the list of things we need to get in place. The common language would be spoken in the market and the like. But what do the people speak around the dining room tables. In my family we spoke English in the stores and schools, but around the dinner table we spoke (and still do) Icelandic.
We need a listing of the languages in Xa-ar and who might speak each.
-BP
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Great, as one can tell my emphasis is usually on the PC interactive arena. The history, Shadow Plots and Politics are not my strong suit but the interaction of PC's and the actors or environment around them is a strong point for me. Anyway, once the town makeup is done, and I like what has been put out with the population suggestions, then filling in which races make the political decisions, business/trade professions, and other city makeups will follow. Also race relations within the city vs others (outlook) is it good, phobic (racist), distrustful? Is this going to be the home to any PC's or travelers or both?
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Hi all,
Am late to the thread but interested in the approach. Please let me know if/when you move to a different forum area and start dividing up the tasks. My wife and I like to create the people, places and things - that is the background content for locales, history, climate, geography, local rumor/plot/NPCs.
Regards,
Old Man
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There are the two common tongues which could be spoken by anyone. Some Lotana will speak Kugor, probably those more involved in the religion. Syrkakar speak Syrkan. Fustir probably speak a variant of Umli.
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Do we have a listing of the languages and the sources?
-BP
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Hi all,
Am late to the thread but interested in the approach. Please let me know if/when you move to a different forum area and start dividing up the tasks. My wife and I like to create the people, places and things - that is the background content for locales, history, climate, geography, local rumor/plot/NPCs.
Regards,
Old Man
As I have said the more input the better. I have the town pretty much rougher our, but just have names for most of the NPCs. I could use help there. And have not looked at items.
-BP
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Kugor: SWMA3 p200, SWMA4 p232, references essentially identical. Described as being taught to the Lotana priesthood, Xa-ar p74, also suggested as a PC language p42.
Jaimani-Erlin: SWMA3 p199, SWMA4 p231, Player Guide p44, references essentially identical, dialect of Erlin used as a common tongue.
Rhaya: SWMA3 p200, SWMA4 p231, references essentially identical, described as being the predominant dialect of Jaiman with seven distinct dialects (one for each of the six kingdoms and another?).
Syrkan: SWMA3 P200, SWMA4 p231, references essentially identical, described as being a blend of Haidic and Umli, spoken by Syrkakar.
Fustir: The related Fustir-Gost speak an Umli dialect, The Iron Wind p11. Only references to Umli language appear to be here and in the description of Syrkan.
Haidic: SWMA3 p200, SWMA4 p231, references essentially identical. Syrkan is described as coming from Haidic and Umli roots. Presumably there is a Haidic language, but there appears to be no other reference.
Quaidu: No languages given. They are mostly soldiers for others, so it seems likely they will use the dominant tongue of where they are.
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I love the language listing above. Truly outstanding research! So I would say that day to day language used in the town would be Jaimani-Erlin. Everyone should have a working knowledge of the language. But there would be others that are spoken in the homes of between members of a culture/race.
I see the Blue Dragon Priest using Kugor almost exclusively. This is because I see him as somewhat of a fanatic when it comes to the Blue Dragon and Lotana culture. When he buy goods and services he will use Jaimani-Erlin, but all other times he will use Kugor.
This might mean that almost all citizens of the town would have a few words of Kugor in their knowledge. Much like people in California in the Us having a few words of Spanish, or any other place where cultures are blended.
The other dialects would be hit or miss, but some folks might have a smattering of knowledge of them. Maybe enough to know that some conversation they hear is of that language.
Comments? Am I on the right track?
-BP
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I have this to help with research: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item686
Although I do need to update it with Emer III, the new Eidolon and Cloudlords, Green Gryphon and Loremaster Legacy. I do find it useful though.
For common tongue, yes, either Jaimani-Erlin or maybe a dialect of Rhaya. I can't find anything as yet on what the different dialects are. I would expect six of the seven to be from the former Crown Kingdoms. Not sure about the seventh. Xa-ar was never really a part of the kingdoms though, so Rhaya may not be as common, and there are influences from other areas.
For Kugor, yes, I don't see it being spoken much outside the priesthood, although the odd word might be known. Especially as it's a Dragon language that humans don't normally know anyway; the Blue Dragon is the only reason the Lotana use it at all. It's certainly not widespread, but it would be useful for a player to have knowledge of it (for potential adventure and plot hooks).
The area might not be truly cosmopolitan, but there are enough different peoples in the area to make it seem that way.
For the cultural summaries I mentioned earlier, I imagine that in some parts of them they would have two sections, one for a society dominated by the race and one for Xa-ar society where it isn't dominated. So, the Lotana might have a specific political structure in their own settlements, but wouldn't follow it to the same extent in others, simply because they can't.
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I would recommend that Jaimani be the dominant with Jaimani-Erlini as the trade language or maybe even Rhaya as the dominant language as this is still part of the continent with influences. Agree that Kugor is known 1-3 ranks in spoken 1-2 in written due to the influence. One cannot live in an area of mixed cultures without understanding a few words or phrases. There may not be enough influence to support Erlini so the trade language of Jaimani-Erlini may be a stretch unless common in the region and cities close by. The other races such as Haid having a strong minority then Haidic would also be a language used in the area as well.
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I have this to help with research: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item686
Although I do need to update it with Emer III, the new Eidolon and Cloudlords, Green Gryphon and Loremaster Legacy. I do find it useful though.
For common tongue, yes, either Jaimani-Erlin or maybe a dialect of Rhaya. I can't find anything as yet on what the different dialects are. I would expect six of the seven to be from the former Crown Kingdoms. Not sure about the seventh. Xa-ar was never really a part of the kingdoms though, so Rhaya may not be as common, and there are influences from other areas.
For Kugor, yes, I don't see it being spoken much outside the priesthood, although the odd word might be known. Especially as it's a Dragon language that humans don't normally know anyway; the Blue Dragon is the only reason the Lotana use it at all. It's certainly not widespread, but it would be useful for a player to have knowledge of it (for potential adventure and plot hooks).
The area might not be truly cosmopolitan, but there are enough different peoples in the area to make it seem that way.
For the cultural summaries I mentioned earlier, I imagine that in some parts of them they would have two sections, one for a society dominated by the race and one for Xa-ar society where it isn't dominated. So, the Lotana might have a specific political structure in their own settlements, but wouldn't follow it to the same extent in others, simply because they can't.
I like this. I am still working on the town (going to let my play test group destroy it on Sat, seems to be what tey like to do with my towns). I am going to see what they think of the NPCs I have come up with and if they like/hate them.
-BP
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I wonder if there's a Y'nari language.
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I wonder if there's a Y'nari language.
No. The Y'nar are a racial group, like Asians. Koreans and Japanese and Chinese languages have little commonality.
Also, I love this language discussion, and I apologize for not going into it more in my previous books. I should note that while Erlin is kind of a 'common tongue' across the hemisphere, where most people can speak at least a few basic phrases badly in order to trade, etc., in Jaiman, Rhaya is what most Jaiman natives would be taught first. (Unless I am contradicting something I wrote years ago, which is possible!)
Language skills are some thing that should be important, and I finally put some in the new edition of Eidolon, making that important distinction between writing and speaking skill.
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One of the toughest parts of using SW was the language distinction for PC's and Race as there are a lot to choose from but should be limited to region unless played as an outsider/orphan/migrant type of character. so a list of races per region would be nice and then the languages per region/race would benefit SW as a whole.
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One of the toughest parts of using SW was the language distinction for PC's and Race as there are a lot to choose from but should be limited to region unless played as an outsider/orphan/migrant type of character. so a list of races per region would be nice and then the languages per region/race would benefit SW as a whole.
Its a tough nut, but even in the real world, language is a barrier. I remember my trips to central America, Greece and Italy, and I was an ignorant fool, and if the people there did not know some English (and were very gracious as I begged the one phrase I learned, if they spoke English), I would have been unable to do more than order food by pointing at a menu. It was a learning experience.
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I wonder if there's a Y'nari language.
No. The Y'nar are a racial group, like Asians. Koreans and Japanese and Chinese languages have little commonality.
Also, I love this language discussion, and I apologize for not going into it more in my previous books. I should note that while Erlin is kind of a 'common tongue' across the hemisphere, where most people can speak at least a few basic phrases badly in order to trade, etc., in Jaiman, Rhaya is what most Jaiman natives would be taught first. (Unless I am contradicting something I wrote years ago, which is possible!)
Language skills are some thing that should be important, and I finally put some in the new edition of Eidolon, making that important distinction between writing and speaking skill.
Thanks. I was trying to work out if the Lotana would have a native tongue from their original homeland that they might still speak.
I assume that there are Umli and Haidic languages, given the references to what the Fustir-Gost speak and the Syrkan reference?
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I wonder if there's a Y'nari language.
No. The Y'nar are a racial group, like Asians. Koreans and Japanese and Chinese languages have little commonality.
Also, I love this language discussion, and I apologize for not going into it more in my previous books. I should note that while Erlin is kind of a 'common tongue' across the hemisphere, where most people can speak at least a few basic phrases badly in order to trade, etc., in Jaiman, Rhaya is what most Jaiman natives would be taught first. (Unless I am contradicting something I wrote years ago, which is possible!)
Language skills are some thing that should be important, and I finally put some in the new edition of Eidolon, making that important distinction between writing and speaking skill.
I am thinking that in a rustic town like the one we are creating the ability of local PCs to have much knowledge of written languages. In the home they would have access to things like a "family bible" or books their parent and grandparents used to learn to read. But the cost of books would be prohibitive. Those PCs that come from the Big City, Rapata, would have a more in depth knowledge of the written word.
So, based on this information the local language would be a dialect of Rhaya. Is there a listing of those someplace?
Also, I will ensure almost all of the merchants have at least 2-3 levels in Spoken Erlin. This would give them the ability to at least get the price of a good or service across to travelers.
This is why I love RM. I can add depth of character to the characters. Even people raised in the same town can be widely different, as they would be in real life. I was born in Hawaii and move to California after my Father died in Viet Nam. Trust me the culture shock was huge! And in the small town there were several different cultures that remained separate. One culture was the Mexican population that spoke Spanish and were very close knit. Then there was the Caucasian population that spoke English and were somewhat loose than the others. I remember some stores where the language used was Spanish and we spoke enough to be able to get what we needed. So I have an idea on how to try to paint this picture.
I am so glad RM gives me the tools to represent this mix of cultures and languages. I envision a marketplace in the town square with various languages and dialect being spoken during the weekly market. Some of the people speaking in broken dialects trying to haggle over a basket of fruit. Too much detail?
-BP
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One of the toughest parts of using SW was the language distinction for PC's and Race as there are a lot to choose from but should be limited to region unless played as an outsider/orphan/migrant type of character. so a list of races per region would be nice and then the languages per region/race would benefit SW as a whole.
Its a tough nut, but even in the real world, language is a barrier. I remember my trips to central America, Greece and Italy, and I was an ignorant fool, and if the people there did not know some English (and were very gracious as I begged the one phrase I learned, if they spoke English), I would have been unable to do more than order food by pointing at a menu. It was a learning experience.
If I might be so bold as to suggest one of the maps I saw in school. I had a rough outline of a continent and different color blotches showing where a language or dialect was spoken.
Just my 2 copper.
-BP
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I haven't found any details on the Rhaya dialects, but I expect that each current or former Crown Kingdom had one. Given Xa-ar's location, in that case I would expect a Saralis dialect of Rhaya to be spoken.
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So is a Dialect of Rhaya important at this point because there may be too many offshoots of main languages that make the number of ants in the world look like a small number in an ant farm. I would just suggest Rhaya as the language and be done with that. The higher the skill in Rhaya the better understanding of (dialects) from older times and different regions.
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I don't know how important the dialect is, but the MA says that the seven dialects are very distinct. I don't know how big a distinction this is; American is after all distinct from English, but they are largely mutually comprehensible.
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Then the naming convention of the Dialects should be for those regions, but if my guess is correct this area was not apart of any of these regions so the language should be pure or just know by the Xa-ar Rhaya. I suspect this can be made very difficult as the different variations that could be thrown in here. That is why a pure Rhaya language would be preferred unless everyone is going to be a language scholar and know multiple dialects for different languages of different areas traveled. I would recommend unless isolated that the language of the continent be of one dialect:
Erlini
Shay
Rhaya
Dwarven
Jaimani-Erlin
Jaimani
Haidic
Syrkan
Fustir
(Black Speech) what ever goblin, ork, troll, ogre or whatever speech may be
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I'm not sure that Xa-ar would have a pure version of Rhaya; a lot of people speaking different languages have trooped through the region over the years, including Saralis. I would expect the local dialect to be probably similar to that of the latter. However, I also think that the dialects of Rhaya are mutually intelligible. Dialects might then just add a bit of colour - and a reason to sneer at people who speak with the "wrong" one.
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For world building and Campaign building this needs to be a more simple process. If SW has say 30 main languages and then 50 dialects per language then the world of SW would be difficult to campaign in. The amount of dialect languages alone for Rhaya is more than enough to keep a scholar busy. That is why with the introduction of this adventure series, it needs to set a presidence on the language structure for modules and source material to come. It would be difficult to justify well over 100+ languages in a gaming world and over 10+ of the same base language in a small area. Remember this is a game world and will reflect on possible adventures to multiple areas. So limiting languages to the base should be enough to have flavor without overwhelming the system with dialects unless as a plot for older versions that need to be deciphered anyway. ;)
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OK, I can work with this. Once I have this fixed I will post here.
-BP
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Note: this discussion should be moved to the new Product Development category at the bottom of the Forums, which has been set up so that you can have multiple threads on the topic. I'll leave this here, but will lock it (but not remove it, so that you can still reference it) later today. You may want to copy posts from here and repost them in the new section under new thread titles.
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What if other people are interested in joining in the project after this is locked? Should they make a post?
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What if other people are interested in joining in the project after this is locked? Should they make a post?
As far as I know, the new category is not hidden or closed, so any new person could go there. Thanks for mentioning it!
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What if other people are interested in joining in the project after this is locked? Should they make a post?
As far as I know, the new category is not hidden or closed, so any new person could go there. Thanks for mentioning it!
Terry - I only see the old Cyradon dev forum there. So must invite in some form.
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Anyone else that is interested needs to contact Terry or Nicholas via PM for them to request it to me to add the name.
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Okay, I will keep the board open for inquiries, but if you are interested in contributing to a new SW book, PM Nicholas or me to be added to the double-secret development board 8)
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I can join in!