Official ICE Forums
Gamer's Corner => General Discussion => Topic started by: dutch206 on June 16, 2011, 05:11:40 PM
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This is a quote from an RPG review I read recently:
With the popularity of PC games and MMOs, it seems that more and more role-players are looking for a system which can be fast and fun to play as their computer gaming experience, but with the social elements that only gathering round a gaming table can provide.
What do you think?
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I think that that is roughly accurate. There has been a general trend, over the last several years, moving towards simpler, faster systems.
That sort of reasoning was part of the reasoning, to one degree or another, behind a number of projects that I worked on, including but not limited to HARP, RMX, and my latest project (see my sig).
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I even see myself getting frustrated with the pace of RM combat from time to time. The realism is awesome, but my "math muscles" are a little flabby.
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There are numerous options within the ICE family of games which don't require significant mathematics on the fly. House rules and optional rules modifications abound for ways to avoid doing the dreaded 2 and 3-digit addition/subtraction. I'm not a big fan myself of the aspects of the system that include multiplication and % adjustments - but there are plenty of people who enjoy those also. Generally speaking HARP is a simpler mathematically than RM (in any of the versions), but there are aspects of it that still can be complex for on the fly calculations.
There is also a lot going on behind the scenes, and some of it will hopefully address the concerns raised in that review. We're all here to enjoy what ICE games offer to role-players - and in the future we'll be bringing more and more to the gaming table for them to enjoy.
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I think that is accurate. My own situation has forced me away from RM/Harp. Time is the biggest factor now & immediate impact and playability have been drawing me towards other systems.
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This is a quote from an RPG review I read recently:
With the popularity of PC games and MMOs, it seems that more and more role-players are looking for a system which can be fast and fun to play as their computer gaming experience, but with the social elements that only gathering round a gaming table can provide.
What do you think?
I agree that this may be the trend right now but having played in a few of these fast and fun type stories they lost there flair quite quickly. In most fast and fun systems it is hard to differentiate some factors of the game for me. For example in White Wolf games your ST dots and weapon dots mean the same thing for a melee weapon, also to make it worse you simply add the weapon base dice to that total. So how do you replicate weapons made of superior metals? Or craftsmanship? Or magic? By adding 1 die to the total die pool. The same thing as adding an additional dot to ST or weapon skill. In a system like Savage Worlds I have found the same to be true in that they sacrifice a lot to have the fast and fun title. For me I need a wider range of values to represent the stories and all of it color that I like to tell. I also think that as technology progresses and the game industry catches up the perceived hardness can be hidden.
MDC
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I also think that as technology progresses and the game industry catches up the perceived hardness can be hidden.
Yeah, that. When you get it to the point where all you need is a die roll and the GM's "situational mods" for that particular action, and the rest of the number crunching does itself, it won't be a problem.
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I've wished ICE would create a comprehensive, extensible software suite for running the game. Forget pretty maps: just give me character generation, encumbrance calculations, combat results, etc. If it's extensible, sell Companions as "add-on modules".
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We actual have multiple individuals under license to create their own software to support the games. More information to come when we get some stuff to share....
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My friends and I oft joke about being in the retirement home sitting in front of a virtual table top with true visual representation of the situation portrayed as a hologram. That's when online gaming will meet table top gaming in a format that has the advantages of both. We just have to grow old first! heh
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We just have to grow old first!
Been there, done that. I'm still waiting... ;)
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I've wished ICE would create a comprehensive, extensible software suite for running the game. Forget pretty maps: just give me character generation, encumbrance calculations, combat results, etc. If it's extensible, sell Companions as "add-on modules".
Just so long as I can edit it, I am all for it. The virtual table top mentioned below would be fantastic!! (And a dream of mine for several years - wish I had the tech skills to get it done.......*sigh*......)
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Have a virtual tabletop for every basic game you sell, and sell "expansion packs"?
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I've seen at least one MMO player turn to traditional RPGs instead because of their flexibility and personal involvement. Also, I didn't use a game that used drawing in MMOers as one of its design goals. So I'd say it can go both ways.
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Whether it's an actual design goal or not, it makes sense (to me at least) to look at the strong points of other forms of gaming and see if it works to incorporate something similar into your own designs. Regardless of how MMOers feel about it, streamlining the number crunching and making it so that having the mechanics be as"invisible" as possible is at least an option for those who want it.... to me, that's just good sense.
Whether MMOers like it or not has no effect on whether it'd be appreciated by tabletop RPGers, except where they're the same people... at least, so far as I can tell. Being neither a business type nor an MMOer myself, I'll admit that the above is basically guesswork.
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I get that the RM rules set isn't the biggest money maker out there, but I think, if it is behind the scenes (like in a computer program for an MMO) it wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would be a plus, I believe. The main reason - as far as I have learned/heard - as to why RM isn't a big as D&D is the perceived complexity (other than the fact that D&D is, well, D&D). If the majority of that is unnoticeable, then I think the realism of combat will appeal to more players than the tabletop does, simply because they don't have to do the record keeping and math that goes along with the tabletop version.
Plus, for me, it would just be cool to actually see Andraax and listen to his craziness... :o Of course, this is only if the RM MMO is set in Kulthea - which it definitely should be. >:( (If it ever happens........)
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I don't think realism appeals to mmo players, at least not the majority.
Talking to a programmer/play tester for WoW just last month, and his complaint was that players are less willing to suffer inconvienence. Story archs have to be brazenly declared and not discovered with difficulty and long archs are not appreciated by what he described as the "typical player." Comments were also shared about how often it was to kill players, respawning, difficulty of monsters, etc. All in all, his gripe was they were forced to make the game easier.
It is my experience that many, many players are very happy to kick in the door, kill everything and never truely be challenged. In fact, "truely challenged" means taking about half your hits, or one really good blow, before dismissing the bad guy with sword and spell. This is why DnD is so very popular. The later editions in particular are hopelessly stacked in favor of the PC's, and players, hell, EVERYBODY, prefers to win.
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I don't think realism appeals to mmo players, at least not the majority.
Talking to a programmer/play tester for WoW just last month, and his complaint was that players are less willing to suffer inconvienence. Story archs have to be brazenly declared and not discovered with difficulty and long archs are not appreciated by what he described as the "typical player." Comments were also shared about how often it was to kill players, respawning, difficulty of monsters, etc. All in all, his gripe was they were forced to make the game easier.
It is my experience that many, many players are very happy to kick in the door, kill everything and never truely be challenged. In fact, "truely challenged" means taking about half your hits, or one really good blow, before dismissing the bad guy with sword and spell. This is why DnD is so very popular. The later editions in particular are hopelessly stacked in favor of the PC's, and players, hell, EVERYBODY, prefers to win.
Yeah, I guess I can see that. And I guess, I have a bit of that too, just that my brain doesn't do too well with the more abstract rules, it just doesn't make sense to me that you have to be a rogue/thief to be able to do more damage to someone by attacking from surprise. Because I know that if anyone now, here, today, on Earth (I am assuming anywhere and any when in the "real" universe here, as well) can hurt someone else more by attacking them from behind/surprise. Which is why I like RM and games like it, that have more realistic rules to reflect these things. Also, I like to problem solve, and to me, a problem could be how to deal with the 5 orc guards without getting killed or wounded enough that you wish you had been killed - and not wake the rest of the orc tribe...... very important that. ;D
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...it just doesn't make sense to me that you have to be a rogue/thief to be able to do more damage to someone by attacking from surprise. Because I know that if anyone now, here, today, on Earth (I am assuming anywhere and any when in the "real" universe here, as well) can hurt someone else more by attacking them from behind/surprise. Which is why I like RM and games like it, that have more realistic rules to reflect these things.
The thing that made me switch to RM back in the day was that I couldn't accept the idea of an old human fighter, who'd gotten old by not being surprised, was always going to be more likely to be surprised than 1st level Elf thief, and there wasn't anything he could do about it, ever.
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Grumpy, Randal, youre preaching to the chior!!!
8)
RM is my fav. I found MERP in the early 80's and picked up RM as soon as I found it. RQ was the system for me before that for the same reasons.
RM players are a different breed, thats just a fact.
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But then again, depending on how you build your MMO, things like the surprise mechanic may not be germane to the issue. If the setup is very visual in nature and you're able to do things in real time, whether you the character sees it may depend on whether you the player sees it, rather than the results of a Perception roll. Repeat with variations for every skill from the tabletop rules involving the GM trying to express something he can't actually show you.
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GOF, the problem isn't whether or nor the player sees it coming, but the character. A straight HP system without any mechanics for dealing with surprise as it pertains to taking damage (like D&D and others) says that they always see it coming - even when they don't, and is too abstract for me and apparently, others.
So, if the game has it D&D-like, then it really doesn't matter if the player sees his character getting attacked, as the damage he takes is the same as if he was struck from the front and knew it was coming. Their attacker will just get an extra hit in before they realize they are being attacked. In an RM rules engined MMO, getting attacked from behind/surprise would be much more dangerous, and therefore you would have to plan accordingly. Like ensure the people in your group are covering their "arcs" so no one gets caught un-awares, and to try to catch your opponents off-guard as it is a viable tactic. (Unlike in D&D, unless you are rogue or something else that gets the "special ability" to attack from surprise and have it matter.) This is why I would prefer an MMO with an engine that emulates RM style play over one like D&D.
I do agree that there is more of the player's abilities being brought into the foreground for an MMO, then for a tabletop. But, with modern programing I am sure that something can be done to help here. Like an "if, then" style, where it is: if sneaking, then use targets perception skills, and if successful then a visual or audible warning is given them. I am not a programmer (obviously), so I don't know exactly how it would/could work, but I am sure that it can be done.
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That's a good point. Maybe the player can only see it if the character makes his perception roll.
This shouldn't be hard for a game system to do.
Every player would be seeing something slightly different from others in the party.
Then everyone is going to want to play elves.. >:(
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Then everyone is going to want to play elves.. >:(
Crap! The best argument against it ever! ::)
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Not if they purchase my 10 point flaw, invisible to elves: persons with this flaw are absolutely invisible to elves and cannot be seen or heard by elves. Elves casting detection magic of any sort will also fail to detect anyone with this flaw.
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Best. Flaw. Ever.
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Not if they purchase my 10 point flaw, invisible to elves: persons with this flaw are absolutely invisible to elves and cannot be seen or heard by elves. Elves casting detection magic of any sort will also fail to detect anyone with this flaw.
But that's not a Flaw, it is a SUPERPOWER!!!!!!
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I thought that flaw went along with drug addiction? Or was in fact a mental flaw in that they just thought that they were invisible to Elves. ;D
MDC
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I can just hear the elf lovers now, saying "Well if I can't smell you either, I'm good with it."
:o
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Well, the tactic of "if we ignore them maybe they will go away" did not work, so perhaps "if they ignore us we can pretend they dont exist" is in full force.
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Stabbings too good for them.
Burnings too good for them.
Those no-good, double-dealing, back stabbing, perverted ELVES!!!!
Smash, snarl, crash, crush, munch, etc.......
(I prefer more overt methods of dealing with elves.)
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Well, imagine being able to attack them with near impunity?
With killing elves, its a lot like when young children catch a mouse under a bucket and burn it to death, or stomp the life out of it. Generally frowned upon, but with the understanding kids will be kids.
Besides, would you rather a child torture the house hold pet or a critter that has no idea who is inflicting pain on it and must therefore assume its the will/doing of capricious gawds? I also understand elven screams are very musical and often mistaken for song birds AND their poop doesn't stink. Double bonus come clean up time.
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Agreed. I flirt with other systems time and again; but come back to RM in time. I have some strong opinions regarding RM; but man, when you actually play whats out there......its a great system.