Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: justabloke on February 18, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
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Sooooo, I've given in to pressure and am running a campaign for one of my gaming groups. While I would really prefer to be running it in the Shadow World, the ease of just picking up a whole campaign won me over and I am running Rise of the Runelords using Pathfinder.
Arguably Pathfinder's Adventure Paths are a major factor in the success of that rule-set. Nine (and counting) detailed campaigns that integrate with a larger world with its associated world-books.
Has any thought been put into this for Kulthea (beyond the abortive Grand Campaign)?
Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE the background and the adventures so far provided. But there is something, quite frankly irresistible to time-poor GM's like myself, about a complete level 1 to 20 package where all I have to do is read the damn thing and know the rules enough to know when my players are pulling a shifty :-)
Thoughts?
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So the real question is, why didn't you convert the adventure path to Rolemaster? ;D
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I can definitely see the attraction... maybe the Grand Campaign could be resurrected for RMU?
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So the real question is, why didn't you convert the adventure path to Rolemaster? ;D
Sorry Thom, I thought the answer to that was implied, too much work. My systems of preference are HARP and Cortex but the system isn't the issue, the completeness of the adventure path is what I was asking about.
What Pazio are currently providing is the complete package. The system (based on one known very well by many/most gamers), the background material and settings, and entire campaigns. Hell, they are even providing miniatures (stiff cardboard) for those campaigns.
The background is there for Shadow World, what it lacks for the time-poor GM such as myself is a campaign pre-made.
Anyway, its not a big deal, eventually I will find the time to create campaign I want to run.
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I would love to see something like this happen. The lack of pre-made adventures are something I think has been ICE's weakness. I get that adventures don't necessarily sell all that well, but what they do is keep GM's running a system (& setting) and that keeps the other books in demand. (At least that seems like how it can work, obviously there is a little more to it than that...)
I think another aspect of why Paizo/Pathfinder has done so well is the production value; they got full-color, glossy everything. I don't like the super long & pointy eared elves, but that is a personal flavor thing, the rest of the art tends to be excellent. Having images to show players, I have found, helps put them "into" the game more.
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Guild Companion Publications put out an adventure call with the intention of being able to released adventure sets (although I don't know how that has gone). One problem that has been mentioned about trying to publish something on a regular basis like Paizo when this has come up before is that everyone is part-time or freelance, so deadlines are hard to hit. I would love to see a regular publication being done, but that seems unlikely unless the demand could be built up enough to hire people on a full time basis.
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justabloke -
My apologies, as my attempt at humor did not come through as intended. I fully understand your situation - I've been there myself during my gaming, though I can say that converting a pre-written adventure from another system is generally not that time consuming. The main aspects of the adventure are the plot, the descriptions, the maps, and the NPC's/Items. The only piece that needs to be converted is the NPC's/Items and most of the time you can simply plug in replacements or convert on the fly... however, if that is more daunting a task than you want to take on, we can say that we're working on pre-gen adventures. I don't believe any are written in the full campaign style that you are asking about, but they are being worked on. Unfortunately HARP needs to finish Bestiary so HARP adventures can be completed, and Rolemaster needs the Beta run to complete so we can move forward on that front.
Second concern from your posts, you indicated that you play HARP and want a campaign adventure for Shadow World. Shadow World has Rolemaster stats available to it. HARP for Shadow World is not currently available. If such an adventure were released for Rolemaster it would likely be for Rolemaster (though maybe it could be dual-statted).
We're definitely working on pre-gen adventures behind the scenes, so I hope that when they come out they will fill most of your need.
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I'm flattered that after all these years there is still interest in the Grand Campaign; it was an ambitious idea that unfortunately died for outside reasons. And yes that ship has sailed; you all are on your own! ;)
I am curious how much interest there would be in SW adventures (they would probably just be PDFs, though who knows?), maybe 32 pages or even smaller.
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I am curious how much interest there would be in SW adventures (they would probably just be PDFs, though who knows?), maybe 32 pages or even smaller.
I think that would be a good idea, especially if you could do a group in the same area, and perhaps build up a locality to some extent.
Incidentally, how much harder is it to set something up for print on demand? I assume it doesn't work that well with just a bog standard PDF.
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I am curious how much interest there would be in SW adventures (they would probably just be PDFs, though who knows?), maybe 32 pages or even smaller.
I think that would be a good idea, especially if you could do a group in the same area, and perhaps build up a locality to some extent.
Incidentally, how much harder is it to set something up for print on demand? I assume it doesn't work that well with just a bog standard PDF.
Maybe I should dust off an old module I started years ago called Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn, which was basically adventures all centered around an inn somewhere in Jaiman (where, one hopes, the PCs stay over) with an ancient Earthwarden bridge nearby, and all kinds of strange things happened...
re PoD, the interior is not that difficult; mostly the graphics have to be of a certain resolution. The covers have to be set up according to their very specific template, so that does require a little extra effort.
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I am curious how much interest there would be in SW adventures (they would probably just be PDFs, though who knows?), maybe 32 pages or even smaller.
Maybe I should dust off an old module I started years ago called Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn, which was basically adventures all centered around an inn somewhere in Jaiman (where, one hopes, the PCs stay over) with an ancient Earthwarden bridge nearby, and all kinds of strange things happened...
Yes, maybe you should. ;D
Sort of like the Tales of.... that already exist, only with a small portion of the product fleshing out the area the adventures are located. Of course, I would rather it be larger than 32-pages (I want more!), but if that is what is put out, then that is what I will get. The adventures don't have to be uber-detailed, just enough there so that the GM doesn't have to do hours of work to get the adventure ready. Heck, if you have most of the maps and NPCs in the "setting" part of the module, then the 2 or 3 adventures (or MORE!!) could just reference those there and only list any of them which are specific to that adventure; that should save some space.
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Yes, an adventure module set in Shadow World would be awesome. You already have tons of settings, and can reference the larger regional books (Jaiman, Emer, etc.), so the setting would already be extremely well developed.
One further request would be for the module to contain boxed or italicized text that you read out to players alongside the more traditional notes for the DM. I really think this is an advantage DnD modules have long had over RM ones: you have cool text to read out to the players to set the scene and give them a mental image of what is going on. It also gives you a breather as DM as the players will undoubtedly discuss what they've just been read. With established writers like Terry, that sort of thing should be a breeze, and would greatly help to engage the players (and make the DM feel that they can run things with very little prep time).
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The Keep on the Borderlands, which had the players operating out of a base, was voted the 7th best D&D module of all time, so having a party be based out of an inn should certainly work.
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Paizo's adventure paths as a business model are something to be considered. Much like the Grand Campaign was (yes, of course there is still interest :)) Its a campaign that's delivered first as a subscription, in small pieces that can be considered story arcs that take place over a few sessions. The production quality is really really high (art + gloss + maps, and writing as well) with both digital and print versions.
There are often extras in the subscription model, and extras you can buy (tiles + full fledged maps and figures that center around the adventure path theme). And it's all packaged in a way that's delivering high value content at a regular heartbeat.
Don't mean to come off as a fanboy of the model (obviously I'm here in these forums because I yearn for something more and something different) but these guys have been at the top of their game for a while and really understand how to deliver content in this market.
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Just wanted to add my voice and say that I fully agree with the thoughts and suggestion expressed here, and that I would support and purchase a line of adventure modules written by Terry (because he doesn't have enough on his plate already.)
I'm currently DMing the Shackled City campaign for my 3.5 D&D group, complete from level 1 to 20 and absolutely love what a time saver it is. After years of creating my own adventures and finding myself with less time these days, it definitely is great to have all the footwork done for you, including the aforementioned "flavour text," which is always a great tool for DMs.
So, while a campaign is something Terry is understandably staying away from writing, a few dedicated adventures would be an invaluable aid for those of us running a game in Kulthea.
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Not that I actually found my old Gryphon Inn Pagemaker file, and not that I might have imported it into InDesign, or maybe started sketching out layouts or anything, but I am curious about the color text some of you have referred to... Is it just a description you could read out, like "You see the famous Gryphon Bridge for the first time; it looms out of the fog, seeming almost to float above the mist..." Or, "The greatroom of the Green Gryphon Inn lives up to its reputation: it is a huge space warmed by no less than three massive stone fireplaces. There are large tables if you are feeling gregarious, and small out of the way corners if (relative) quiet is what you desire. The place smells of smoke and roasted meat, and it is well-populated by a variety of folk..."
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Yes, that is precisely what I, and I believe others as well, meant about text to read out loud to the players. :)
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Can someone point me to a good example of one of these Adventure Path modules, so I can take a look at it? Thanks!
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You could try the one I just mentioned, The Shackled City - Adventure Path. Just Google that and you should see the PDF link.
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You could try the one I just mentioned, The Shackled City - Adventure Path. Just Google that and you should see the PDF link.
That's kind of big; any small module that won't cost me a lot? I just want to see how they format the GM 'speech' and the adventures. Otherwise for the adventure format I might use the old Eidolon structure.
Darn my ADHD; I now have 11 adventure ideas and half a dozen pages written.
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Found a free one - don't know how good an example it is of Pathfinder though: http://paizo.com/products/btpy82r0?GameMastery-Module-D0-Hollows-Last-Hope (http://paizo.com/products/btpy82r0?GameMastery-Module-D0-Hollows-Last-Hope)
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Looks great! I especially like the color maps.
I would love to see a RM module of this sort, with italicized text for the DM to read and tips on tactical behavior for the monsters, all integrated into a ready-to-play adventure.
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Found a free one - don't know how good an example it is of Pathfinder though: http://paizo.com/products/btpy82r0?GameMastery-Module-D0-Hollows-Last-Hope
Yes this is a good example. I can certainly do this if people find it helpful...
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Thanks for posting the link - (always like good quality free roleplaying material).
I changed the link to an active link so you can just click on it.
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Thanks for posting the link - (always like good quality free roleplaying material).
I changed the link to an active link so you can just click on it.
Thanks Thom, yes it's an interesting little module. It does make me think that maybe my SW books can be a bit dense with material (fiber?) and could stand a little more 'flavor' (candy?) that is directly relevant to the adventures at hand. I certainly enjoy writing color (smell/touch/hear) text...
So, another cup of joe, and back to Gryphonburgh and maybe some spice to the Eidolon adventures.
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Thanks for posting the link - (always like good quality free roleplaying material).
I changed the link to an active link so you can just click on it.
I wasn't entirely certain whether posting active links to other systems would be appreciated, so I didn't.
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In this case there's no problem with it - it's a free product and be highlighted for use as an example of something fans want for ICE products. Linking to the Pathfinder system books themselves would not be acceptable - but thank you for your discretion.
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Thanks Thom, yes it's an interesting little module. It does make me think that maybe my SW books can be a bit dense with material (fiber?) and could stand a little more 'flavor' (candy?) that is directly relevant to the adventures at hand. I certainly enjoy writing color (smell/touch/hear) text...
That is precisely the stuff I like to see in modules; excellent flavor text and awesome maps, both of which YOU are known for Terry.
*Engaging all the senses, I find, really helps sell the situation.
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If you are just looking for a sample I'd try a used bookstore, you can get older ones fairly cheaply. Amazon too of course can hook you up with used copies. Kingmaker, Rise of the Runelords are fairly popular.
Adventure path details from the source here: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath
Its not just the format, cadence is part of their business model - they deliver these monthly (note - this team is the team that was outsourced to produce the dungeon/dragon magazines - they got so good at producing content they spun their own company + brand)
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<snip> Nine (and counting) detailed campaigns that integrate with a larger world with its associated world-books.</snip>
When I count them in my game room correctly, there are 16 Paizo-Adventure Paths campaigns produced or in production right now. 3 in the old Dungeon magazines, one of these is shackled city which was reprinted as a one-volume-book. And 13 d&d/pathfinder adventure paths which all consists of 6 books each.
So: much more fun to play :)
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Actually, Pathfinder took the fanbase from WoTC (based upon their Dragon/Dungeon work) and used it to justify full time staff members who work on these projects. They then spun off of WoTC's mistake of making additional revisions to D&D leaving a decent percentage of fans disgruntled, and more than happy to jump on the Pathfinder system. They were in the right place at the right time and were able to capitalize on it. ICE will not be able to duplicate that model as we are reliant upon freelancers to work on the projects and have a far smaller audience willing to subscribe to that model of product offering. That doesn't mean we won't try to offer similar products - but expecting anything close to a monthly release cadence would only lead to disappointment.
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Sure. Not expecting ICE to copy this model - just pointing out how another group uses regular content releases (and other things) as a way to keep their fans engaged. I do think that ShadowWorld is one of the most interesting fantasy settings ever and I'm looking forward to seeing more, regardless of delivery.
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An interesting thread. Certainly I would like to see more premade Shadow World adventures - even if it's not directly applicable to my current campaign, it's easier to relocate a module within the setting than morph an adventure to a new setting (changing all location names, religions et al).
I agree with the advantage of canned text to read to players, I'm sure it would surpass anything I could improvise or prepare myself. I think the attraction of the adventure path model for me would be the ready-made campaign aspect - a set of adventures with a coherent story-arc. If that would be too ambitious then perhaps some space given to how separate adventures could be interwoven might be an alternative?
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That I think is potentially do-able. (But I don't want to speak for Nicholas or Terry).
The monthly subscription model is not.
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Adventures would be great. Canned text I never cared for, but I can skip it easily enough (I have many, many times).
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One of the biggest draws of these Adventure Paths is that they give everything a GM needs to run a long-term campaign with little preparation on their part. They normally start with a beginning party, dealing with a straightforward low-level situation, and let things expand and escalate until the group is dealing with something large-scale, maybe even world-changing.
The original APs, "Shackled City", "Age of Worms", and "Savage Tide", were all twelve-part stories published in Dragon Magazine (while it was still bring printed). All of them gradually increased in scope, and included references to classic D&D material. For instance, a late adventure in the "Age of Worms" path required the party to fight an undead dragon first mentioned in the map for "White Plume Mountain", one of the first D&D adventures.
These campaigns were written to take a 1st-level party and take them all the way to 20th level or higher. (The D&D and Pathfinder rules have a soft 'cap' at that level, but include optional rules for going beyond that.)
A proper adventure path for SW would have to start with something simple, but gradually expand to include traveling halfway across the world, and maybe even a little plane-hopping (though I don't think anyone would willingly travel to the Pales). The end would have to involve a face-off with one of the many Ancient Evils, of which there is no shortage.
It would certainly be a daunting task to write one of these. But I must agree with the others -- I think this is something that had been missing from Rolemaster all these years, a long-term scenario that gives GMs everything they need in one package.
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One of the biggest draws of these Adventure Paths is that they give everything a GM needs to run a long-term campaign with little preparation on their part. They normally start with a beginning party, dealing with a straightforward low-level situation, and let things expand and escalate until the group is dealing with something large-scale, maybe even world-changing.
The original APs, "Shackled City", "Age of Worms", and "Savage Tide", were all twelve-part stories published in Dragon Magazine (while it was still bring printed). All of them gradually increased in scope, and included references to classic D&D material. For instance, a late adventure in the "Age of Worms" path required the party to fight an undead dragon first mentioned in the map for "White Plume Mountain", one of the first D&D adventures.
These campaigns were written to take a 1st-level party and take them all the way to 20th level or higher. (The D&D and Pathfinder rules have a soft 'cap' at that level, but include optional rules for going beyond that.)
A proper adventure path for SW would have to start with something simple, but gradually expand to include traveling halfway across the world, and maybe even a little plane-hopping (though I don't think anyone would willingly travel to the Pales). The end would have to involve a face-off with one of the many Ancient Evils, of which there is no shortage.
It would certainly be a daunting task to write one of these. But I must agree with the others -- I think this is something that had been missing from Rolemaster all these years, a long-term scenario that gives GMs everything they need in one package.
And... that was pretty much what I intended for the Grand Campaign, along with having a sweeping narrative story, and exposing the characters to all of the unique aspects of the Shadow World along the way.
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Exactly!
Think how awesome it would be to describe the great locations and people of Kulthea for your players! We already often get great little snippets of Kulthean flavor in many of the regional sourcebooks, when Terry writes those little prose stories as adventure hooks and to set the scene. But the players rarely get to read those parts. So for an adventure path, you just have to make them suitable to read out to the players so that they too can set the scene in their minds:
'The great, floating city of Eidolon soars above you, shining in the Kulthean sun. Flying ships of every size and color hover about the spinning disc like bees around a hive. As your own ship pulls closer to one of the wharfs, an eruption of shouts draws your attention still higher. Mouths gape and fingers point to a winged speck in the distance... after decades of mysterious silence, the Dragonlord has appeared again!"
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Exactly!
Think how awesome it would be to describe the great locations and people of Kulthea for your players! We already often get great little snippets of Kulthean flavor in many of the regional sourcebooks, when Terry writes those little prose stories as adventure hooks and to set the scene. But the players rarely get to read those parts. So for an adventure path, you just have to make them suitable to read out to the players so that they too can set the scene in their minds:
'The great, floating city of Eidolon soars above you, shining in the Kulthean sun. Flying ships of every size and color hover about the spinning disc like bees around a hive. As your own ship pulls closer to one of the wharfs, an eruption of shouts draws your attention still higher. Mouths gape and fingers point to a winged speck in the distance... after decades of mysterious silence, the Dragonlord has appeared again!"
Nice! Maybe you should write some! :D
Re this little adventure side-track (4 days to finish), I am not doing a whole lot of 'GM read text,' just a few description passages at key points. With the adventures, I am trying to do several very low-level ones, and some higher ones (maybe the PCs start off from here, and return later, knowing a few locals and getting involved in bigger things?), and several very brief adventure hook ideas. I'm up to 15 adventure ideas, so I'm certainly not going to detail them all. And some are somewhat generic (with a SW twist) while others are very SW-centric (mostly centered around the bridge, and a few specific residents).
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So I reckon I need to apologise to Thom. I meant no disrespect for all you all do. I have nothing but admiration for you and all your hard work. I know and understand that ICE and the ShadowWorld are more labours of love than they can ever be money-making deals.
But that said, now that others have chimed in, I would just like to add to idea. While it seems clear from reading between the lines that resources aren't available to produce an entire Adventure Path (a la Pathfinder), perhaps the scope exists to create, over time, a series of adventures that all link together. I completely except Thom's point about why a subscription model won't work.
I to would like to put in a vote for the descriptive text used throughout Pazio's products, it really does add a huge amount of flavour.
I also think there is money to be made in releasing the series over time, with just enough time between releases for the "average" group to play thru a module. That way people can either play thru as it is released or pay for the whole bundle at the end. However once again I concede that the resources (i.e. Terry's/others time) may not be available.
I also take Thom's point about stat/item conversion. But to be honest Rolemaster isn't my reason for being here, the ShadowWorld is, I love it. Terry just aced it IMHO. So perhaps a series of adventures that maybe lead up to the "Legacy of the Sea Drake" (maybe with some flesh added to it) followed by a series that deals with happens afterwards and ties into situation around Ondoval... Just an idea :-)
Regardless, please keep the SW material coming.
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No apology necessary... I made a joke, you didn't catch it - not a problem. My wife tells me none of my jokes are funny anyway and she misses most of them, so I'm used to it.
In regards to the Adventure Path idea - I think it is achievable (non-subscription model) and we should be thanking you for raising the question. From the number of posts there is clearly interest in it, so I think it has a chance of happening (provided Terry is willing and able - or someone else is interested in stepping up to do it with Terry's approval). Thank you!
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:)
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I tried to convert the AP "Serpents Skull" from Pathfinder to HARP.
Its a lot of work with all the enemies, monsters and traps. PF is a very combat-intense rpg, HARP is a lot more lethal. So every fight might end in a tpk. Chances are way higher in HARP, than PF.
The conversion of the encounters is not done lighthearty. Some Monsters can be taken from the HARPO Bestiary, but ... BUT ! at least 80% of the encounters must be adjusted very carefully. They have special powers, spells, magic items. To balance that out, it took me so much work, that we re-changed the system back to PF. Sadly.
And to run an AP is a lot of work for the DM. You must be prepared for everything. My players love to crush the plot within minutes, find solutions no designer thought of and do terrible things I never expected and prepared.
So if you prepare an AP and change the rules-set, you have a lot of homework to do.
(please apologize my bad english)
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I have not tried to convert Pathfinder, but I have converted d20 almost on the fly. For my conversions, as long as I am comfortable with what the encounter was meant to do and represent in the greater scope of the adventure, I just drop in my own version of those creatures, NPCs, items, etc. NPCs are probably the most difficult if there will be combat, but even those can be done quickly for 80% of the NPCs.
The plot deviation issue is definitely one that I would be concerned with as it comes with any pre-made adventure, and the longer the adventure the greater the challenge to keep the characters on the adventure path. That's where a single strong plotline is necessary.
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IMHO that is the trick, you convert most of the stuff but not everything. You convert the important stuff but let the rest pop into place. IE I would use the tables in RMSS/FRP for basic NPC's or the tables in RM2/C and adjust based on my party from there.
IMHO the whole thing is designed to have fun so under-power it a bit and bump up NPC's and monsters as needed on the fly, while being fair to the players. That is the trick of being a good GM and not just a book GM in the games I have played in. The GM works with, in and around the rules as needed those who are rule lawyers and cannot see the limitations of the rules are IMHO some of the worst GM's out there.
MDC