Topic: Foraging/Survival

[Arioch]

According to the core book the skill Foraging/Survival must be developed separately for each enviroment (mountain, desert,...). What if a PC is in an enviroment that he isn't skilled in? Is he helpless or can he use his Foraging/Survival skill, maybe with some penalty?

[choc]

Use either 1/4 ranks or 25 whatever is less. (+stats and +additional bonus such as outdoorsman)

[Right Wing Wacko]

I agree with choc.
Most basic survival techniques are applicable in any environment.

[Arioch]

Thanks! 

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

You may also wish to consider the mandatory subskills rules from HARP SF, where you pick a speciality and it gets full bonus, others are at a penalty. To remove the penalties on a different speciality, you buy subskill proficiency talents for that speciality.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[jasonbrisbane]

I like NicholasHMCaldwell's approach.

A few skill sin HARP (I'm thiking Runes/Alchemy/Charmcraft/etc) seem to have the primary skill and the subskills at -40.

While foraging is still used, determinign where to find water in a forest is different from where to find it in a desert.

I'd use a -40 penalty for foraging/survival in an environment not your own (Equivalent ot an Extremely hard maneuver).

[Arioch]

To remove the penalties on a different speciality, you buy subskill proficiency talents for that speciality.

What could be the cost of this talent? 10DPs?

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Multiple Subskill Proficiency reduces subskill penalties by 10 for 5 DPs. The Foraging/survival subskill penalties are -20.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Arioch]

Multiple Subskill Proficiency reduces subskill penalties by 10 for 5 DPs. The Foraging/survival subskill penalties are -20.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Thanks!

[Pat]

I also think that there should only be 4 Foraging/Survival skills based on climatic conditions. So there woud be Foraging/Survival:
Temperate
Frigid
Tropical
Desert

That way terrain type wouldn't be a factor, it would be based solely on climate. (For instance, you may be camping on an open plain but if there's 6 feet of snow all around you, would Survival Plain be useful?)

[Arioch]

I also think that there should only be 4 Foraging/Survival skills based on climatic conditions. So there woud be Foraging/Survival:
Temperate
Frigid
Tropical
Desert

This solution has the advantge of being simple, but IMHO the terrain type should have some impact on F/S skill. If you're on a mountain in a tropical climate I think that your Survival: Mountain skill should be usable, even if you learned it in a temperate climate...

[jasonbrisbane]

Actually I see benefits of both methods (pat and arioch).

What about using Pats with Mundane Lore: Mountains/etc as a bonus manuever to increase your successes?
(Or vice versa?)

[Pat]

I also think that there should only be 4 Foraging/Survival skills based on climatic conditions. So there woud be Foraging/Survival:
Temperate
Frigid
Tropical
Desert

This solution has the advantge of being simple, but IMHO the terrain type should have some impact on F/S skill. If you're on a mountain in a tropical climate I think that your Survival: Mountain skill should be usable, even if you learned it in a temperate climate...

This is where the 4 climate type has it's advantage. If the mountain has a tropical climate (as in your example) then you would only need to use F/S Tropical since the theory is that the same (or similar) plants and animals would live in Tropical climates regardless of terrain.

Also, it has the advantage of only 4 sub sets instead of the current half dozen or so. (And most players seem to end up investing ranks in create water and create food since it's cheaper than have lots of ranks in varying F/S skills. At least that has been my experience)

[Pat]

Actually I see benefits of both methods (pat and arioch).

What about using Pats with Mundane Lore: Mountains/etc as a bonus manuever to increase your successes?
(Or vice versa?)

I was hoping by dividing the the skill into 4 climate sub sets that it would reduce the number of skills needed rather than increase them. I think that most players end up taking one or two terrain environments (which is where this post started...players wanting to use a sub set skill in an unsuitable environment.) as a just in case measure.

Also, there would be no cross over. You are either skilled in a climate or not. (Knowing how to find water in a desert climate isn't going to help you build an igloo to conserve body heat in a frigid environment and vice versa)

[Arioch]

(And most players seem to end up investing ranks in create water and create food since it's cheaper than have lots of ranks in varying F/S skills. At least that has been my experience)

I'm currently running a low-magic campaign (no spells avaible), so this is not a problem! 

Pat, I like your method, but I'm still undecided... maybe I'll end up doing what jason suggest.

[jasonbrisbane]

Yep.

Pats way means tyou can still have a reduced number of skills.

But if you get Mundane Lore: Mountains, not only could you use it to gain a bonus to the foraging roll but it could be used in other ways too
(Bonus to Flora/Fauna rolls, etc).

And it fits in with either High or Low magic campaigns... 

[Karak_Nor]

I've just been discussing this with a friend of mine.  We both have experience in multiple systems.  This is what we have devised.

At Rank 1 you choose a speicalist environment.  At Rank 5 and every fifth level thereafter (10, 15, etc) you can choose a new environment.  The environments are: Arctic, Cavern, Coastal, Forest, Freshwater Wetlands, Highlands, Jungle, Plains, Rural and Waste.

[Pat]

I've just been discussing this with a friend of mine.  We both have experience in multiple systems.  This is what we have devised.

At Rank 1 you choose a speicalist environment.  At Rank 5 and every fifth level thereafter (10, 15, etc) you can choose a new environment.  The environments are: Arctic, Cavern, Coastal, Forest, Freshwater Wetlands, Highlands, Jungle, Plains, Rural and Waste.

I can see a couple of problems with this one. Firstly, if you select a speciality at 1st level (say Arctic) does that mean you do not have any survival skills in any other environment? It sounds like it could be an easy way for GM's to kill characters.

Secondly, would you rather invest 20 ranks in 1 skill for 5 specialities or spread those 20 ranks over your 10 environments for 2 ranks each? Personally, I'd rather cover my bases and have some skill in most environments rather than be an expert in a few. (and possibly die in an unfamiliar environment.)

[Karak_Nor]

"if you select a speciality at 1st level (say Arctic) does that mean you do not have any survival skills in any other environment?"

(I may have stuffed up in my use of the quote facility, I'm still practicing)

I prefer a system where there is one Foraging/Survival skill.  There are three necessities for life: food & water, shelter and warmth.  The survival aspect of the skill teaches you how to to provide those three.  Where ever you go, shelter and warmth will ensure you are alive to hunt animals.  The foraging aspect of the skill allows you to find non-meat food sources e.g. roots, eggs, etc.

I would allow a Flora/Fauna Lore skill check to modify a players Foraging/Survival skill check using the bonus mehtod.  (Flora for Foraging, Fauna for Survival)  Each environment that a player is not specialised in, they receive a -25 penalty to the skill check offset by the bonus from the Lore skill check.  If a player is in a specialist environment, then they do not receive the penalty.

[Karak_Nor]

Secondly, would you rather invest 20 ranks in 1 skill for 5 specialities or spread those 20 ranks over your 10 environments for 2 ranks each?

(Let's see if I got this quotation right  )

Let's have a play with my idea.   
Ok, take a Human Ranger named Bob who is level 3.  He has maxed out his Foraging/Survival skill at 12 ranks (12DP if the initial 6 from char gen all go into survival).  For the sake of argument he has a 75 in each stat and put a +3 into Insight and Reasoning.  So that will give him a +55 (39 from skill ranks, 16 from stats) and two specialist environments.  With no other modifiers he'll need a 46 to get a success (101 or better) in his specialist environments and a 71 in all others.

Taking two ranks (12DP if the initial 6 from char gen all go into survival) in six terrain types with the same person will mean that Bob has a +26 (10 from skill ranks, 16 from stats).  He would need a 75 to acheive a success in those environments.

When I was trialing HARP to see how it played, I found that I was getting between 30 and 40 DP per level.  I find the second method an inefficient expenditure of skill points.  But I can't really comment as I've also moved skills around to different categories.  This is for when I take over as GM when the current campaign I'm in ends.