Author Topic: I need help: charging; missile fire  (Read 3858 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Antalon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
I need help: charging; missile fire
« on: March 29, 2008, 01:49:55 PM »
I would really appreciate some views on these issues.

Charging:

RMC seems pretty clear that a melee attack is modified by -1 per 1 per cent less than 100 per cent activity used.

If you charge you gain +OB / -DB equal to the distance charged in a straight line.

But this simply seems to cancel the cost of moving?  Why bother, given the big DB disadvantage?

For example, assume a BMR of 50', run 100'.  Charging 30' to attack Bolg the Orc, Ralph (with an OB of 60 and no Quickness) declares a 20 / 10 OB/DB parry (60OB - 30 for 30% move allows 30 OB to allocate between attack and parry) has a final OB/DB of 50 / -20.  Given his DB let's hope he hits!

Is this example correct?

Missile fire:

Suppose that Bolg has a bow with an arrow ready (or icould rapid-load-fire).  Bolg is standing 30' from Ralph.  Ralph and Bolg check intitiative - Ralph wins.

Could Bolg shoot Ralph before he can Charge Bolg, even though he lost initiative?  Or can Ralph charge and melee attack (or just move normally) before Bolg can fire off his arrow?

If this was the first round of combat, Bolg could get a +20 initiative bonus (and probably shoot Ralph first).  But what if Ralph has already cut his way through 2 Orcs and Bolg is next?

The old RM2 combat sequence always allowed missile fire before melee.  This revised RMC does not appear to make allowance for this?  How should this be handled?

Cheers

Antalon.


Offline Dark Mistress

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2008, 02:35:30 PM »
I would really appreciate some views on these issues.

Charging:

RMC seems pretty clear that a melee attack is modified by -1 per 1 per cent less than 100 per cent activity used.

If you charge you gain +OB / -DB equal to the distance charged in a straight line.

But this simply seems to cancel the cost of moving?  Why bother, given the big DB disadvantage?

For example, assume a BMR of 50', run 100'.  Charging 30' to attack Bolg the Orc, Ralph (with an OB of 60 and no Quickness) declares a 20 / 10 OB/DB parry (60OB - 30 for 30% move allows 30 OB to allocate between attack and parry) has a final OB/DB of 50 / -20.  Given his DB let's hope he hits!

Is this example correct?

Well assuming your saying the attack is 100% of the action. It says 50-100% but I can't off hand find out where you determine how much for what type of attack.(sure someone else will point it out for us both shortly)

Now maybe I am reading this wrong but I always thought that say in you case after the charge he would have 70% of his action left. I always took that to mean 70% of his OB of 60 or... 60 x .7 = a OB of 42, which would then net him a total of 62 OB and -20 DB counting the charge.

But personally I never counted Melee attacks as a full 100% of the action. Seems a bit much to me.

Quote
Missile fire:

Suppose that Bolg has a bow with an arrow ready (or icould rapid-load-fire).  Bolg is standing 30' from Ralph.  Ralph and Bolg check intitiative - Ralph wins.

Could Bolg shoot Ralph before he can Charge Bolg, even though he lost initiative?  Or can Ralph charge and melee attack (or just move normally) before Bolg can fire off his arrow?

If this was the first round of combat, Bolg could get a +20 initiative bonus (and probably shoot Ralph first).  But what if Ralph has already cut his way through 2 Orcs and Bolg is next?

The old RM2 combat sequence always allowed missile fire before melee.  This revised RMC does not appear to make allowance for this?  How should this be handled?

Cheers

Antalon.

Well if it was in combat, then likely the reason would be that the Orc had not notched another arrow in time. It really depends on how complicated you want to get with it.

For example lets say Ralph got a 30 int total and the orc a 20. You could then deduct the amount of time from the run off Ralph's int to see when he swings the sword. So if it take 30% of his turn that would leave him 70% of his int left when the swings the sword. Which would mean he would swing on a int of 21. Or he would swing just as the Orc was drawing the arrow back, a fraction of a second before the Orc was able to release the arrow.
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.

- Benjamin Franklin

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2008, 03:20:05 PM »
Normally a missile firer should be considered "ready to recieve charge" and thus get a +4 init bonus.

We have gone one farther, and in circumstance as you describe, if the bow weilder is aware of the charging foe (requiring perhaps a perception check if a target had already been declared).  Another way is to assume that unless the archer had declared react and melee/oportunity fire, then give init to the archer but penalize as with all aborted actions.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2008, 03:40:15 PM »
I would really appreciate some views on these issues.

Charging:

RMC seems pretty clear that a melee attack is modified by -1 per 1 per cent less than 100 per cent activity used.

If you charge you gain +OB / -DB equal to the distance charged in a straight line.

But this simply seems to cancel the cost of moving?  Why bother, given the big DB disadvantage?

For example, assume a BMR of 50', run 100'.  Charging 30' to attack Bolg the Orc, Ralph (with an OB of 60 and no Quickness) declares a 20 / 10 OB/DB parry (60OB - 30 for 30% move allows 30 OB to allocate between attack and parry) has a final OB/DB of 50 / -20.  Given his DB let's hope he hits!

Is this example correct?

Yeah, I would pretty much say that it is correct.

More simply put, Charging is essentially moving the movement penalty from OB to DB.

However, I would actually treat it as specific Example of Simultaneous Actions, and thus allow for something like a 10% overlap. (i.e. the last 10% of the move overlapping with the attack itself (thus the movement penalty is actually -20, not -30 and the character has an OB of 40, not 30 before the charge mods are added in)).

That would give a final OB of 60/-20.

Note: The bonus to OB from Charging should NEVER be allowed to be moved to DB as part of a parry.

Missile fire:

Suppose that Bolg has a bow with an arrow ready (or icould rapid-load-fire).  Bolg is standing 30' from Ralph.  Ralph and Bolg check intitiative - Ralph wins.

Could Bolg shoot Ralph before he can Charge Bolg, even though he lost initiative?  Or can Ralph charge and melee attack (or just move normally) before Bolg can fire off his arrow?

If this was the first round of combat, Bolg could get a +20 initiative bonus (and probably shoot Ralph first).  But what if Ralph has already cut his way through 2 Orcs and Bolg is next?

The old RM2 combat sequence always allowed missile fire before melee.  This revised RMC does not appear to make allowance for this?  How should this be handled?

But why should missile fire always go before melee? Things are happening in a relatively simultaneous manner. That gave special advantage to ranged attacks, even if you were in melee already. An advantage that the attack didn't deserve.

His Charging attack is going to require a minimum of 80% activity (50% attack (60% really, with what I said above), 30% move). If the character has an arrow already, it will take 50% activity to fire it, regardless of initiative.

The default of the round has actions revolved in 2 cycles (49% or less AND 50% or more). There is an option that allows for using more cycles. You could effectively resolve the round over the course of 10 cycles, or do it in 3 or 4 cycles. If you are using more than 2 cycles, that means that regardless of his initiative, the bow would fire first (so long as the arrow was already ready).

Normally a missile firer should be considered "ready to recieve charge" and thus get a +4 init bonus.

We have gone one farther, and in circumstance as you describe, if the bow weilder is aware of the charging foe (requiring perhaps a perception check if a target had already been declared).  Another way is to assume that unless the archer had declared react and melee/oportunity fire, then give init to the archer but penalize as with all aborted actions.

I would also consider it to be the "longer" weapon (+15 to init) until they are actually in melee range...  ;D The longer weapon init mod being for "I can hit you before you can reach me" situations.

Offline Antalon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2008, 06:53:51 AM »
Thank you all.  This has really helped.  I forgot about simultaneous actions - I think for a charge action a MM would also be required, but reducing the % activity for movement is a real saving.  And, yes, it seems logical not to allow charge bonus OB to count toward parrying.

I like the idea of treating bows as the 'longer weapon' - which gives a strong edge but no certainty that the missile firer would get - but perhaps only if declared to fire at the charging character or making a sucessful orientation roll and facing the usual penalties for changing their action.


Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 07:36:42 AM »
I know this...as the GM, many PC deaths have occured because the player thinks shooting bows when foes or in closing distance is a good idea.  If the PC misses, or fails to stun/incapacitate the foe, or if there are more than one foe, the archer is very likely to be laying in his own blood by the end of the melee round.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Dark Mistress

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2008, 10:13:18 AM »
Rasyr so if you use 30% of your total round it is not 30% of your OB but just a -30? I get the math is easier but that just seems weird, I always assumed it would be you subtract 30% of the OB
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.

- Benjamin Franklin

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2008, 10:39:52 AM »
Rasyr so if you use 30% of your total round it is not 30% of your OB but just a -30? I get the math is easier but that just seems weird, I always assumed it would be you subtract 30% of the OB

Like you said, the math is easier to handle and figure out....  ;D

If you want to fiddle with percentages, that is quite alright.  :D

Offline Dark Mistress

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 01:27:51 PM »
Yeah I got that, but honestly my whole group and myself always thought the rules meant 30% of the OB. Huh, I mean we will use our house rule still. But I really thought that was the actual rule.
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.

- Benjamin Franklin

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 03:02:41 PM »
SOmetimes we figure the percentage out, sometimes we do not.  Like a Pain III spell does 30% of hits.  We do not just say -30 to hits, but figure what 30% of normal hits are and remove that many hits.  Same with pp and stat effecting spells that do damage as a percentage.

Still, a -30 is as good as figuring it out, and there are some interesting balances.  Real high skills will still be successful, but most skills are in the pretty good range 0f 65-80, so a -30 is quite a whollop.  And since all roles are on d100, the penalty really is 30%, if not of the skill being used.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Marc R

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,392
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • "Don't throw stones, offer alternatives."
    • Looking for Online Roleplay? Try RealRoleplaying
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 03:03:07 PM »
It can become more of a benefit if you can move farther than the % of move, but the major bennie in charging is to be mounted. . .so the mount makes the move, and you get the bonus to the attack, without expending extra activity. (You do take a penalty based on your riding skill, but that's flat.)

So if your horse makes a long charge into combat, you can rack up a lot of bonus without matching penalty.
The Artist Formerly Known As LordMiller

Looking for online Role Play? Try WWW.RealRoleplaying.Com

Offline Antalon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 04:17:04 PM »
Speaking of charging more generally - and how it is handled in different RPGs - many game systems allow a bonus (albeit with some sort of penalty) for a charge attack.  As LordMiller says a mounted charge is especially deadly.

But - I was never that clear that a charge on foot (rather than mounted) is very beneficial if someone is prepared for you.  In Rugby (for example) a charge (in effect) can knock someone off balance, but rarely is the charge head-on (more an angle to trip / pull the opponent down).  Certainly, if someone is unaware / surprised a charge could add momentum to knocking them (and yourself) to the ground.  I was always struck by the scene in Braveheart - where the Scots charge the English - it seemed as dangerous or more so to those charging?

So - the 'limited' advantage of charging on foot in Rolemaster seems sort of 'right'.  I can't really judge, nevery having charged a man with a sword, or knowing how to use a sword etc.

I think the Vikings had a 'Swine-array' wedge shield formation designed to burst through shield walls - but this seems more likely to rely on co-operation and weight of numbers rather than a single charge-type benefit.

Just some thoughts.

Offline Balhirath

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 234
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 04:04:08 AM »
Speaking of charging more generally - and how it is handled in different RPGs - many game systems allow a bonus (albeit with some sort of penalty) for a charge attack.  As LordMiller says a mounted charge is especially deadly.

But - I was never that clear that a charge on foot (rather than mounted) is very beneficial if someone is prepared for you.  In Rugby (for example) a charge (in effect) can knock someone off balance, but rarely is the charge head-on (more an angle to trip / pull the opponent down).  Certainly, if someone is unaware / surprised a charge could add momentum to knocking them (and yourself) to the ground.  I was always struck by the scene in Braveheart - where the Scots charge the English - it seemed as dangerous or more so to those charging?

So - the 'limited' advantage of charging on foot in Rolemaster seems sort of 'right'.  I can't really judge, nevery having charged a man with a sword, or knowing how to use a sword etc.

I think the Vikings had a 'Swine-array' wedge shield formation designed to burst through shield walls - but this seems more likely to rely on co-operation and weight of numbers rather than a single charge-type benefit.

Just some thoughts.

Thats why the Romans had the shield-wall and why they usually won. Trying to charge a prepared foe is a terrible idea. Especially if the foe in question is standing in a formation.  ;D
It's an REALLY bad idea to charge a shieldwall if you do it in the braveheart way with on open formation (I think that War Law call this kind of 'formation' for Open Horde.) unless you outnumber the formation at lot and are prepared to pay the butchers bill.  >:(
There are only two things going for the attacker: Shock value and morale and if the formation succed in turning the first attack away, the shock value is gone.
Adding horses to a charge added a LOT in shock value just in weight. The Morale aspect of watching a lot of big looking horses thundering down on you with the riders points long spears or lances at you, I wont even go into  ;D
I'm new here, but have played RM2 on and off for 20 years. :)

Offline Marc R

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,392
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • "Don't throw stones, offer alternatives."
    • Looking for Online Roleplay? Try RealRoleplaying
Re: I need help: charging; missile fire
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2008, 09:34:54 PM »
Horses are too smart to charge a wall of spears though, so prepared pikemen are immune to horsemen. . .at least on one facing. . .as long as they don't go chicken and break formation.
The Artist Formerly Known As LordMiller

Looking for online Role Play? Try WWW.RealRoleplaying.Com