Topic: Non-lethal damage

[Aaron]

Hi!

Is there any way to simulate non-lethal damage in Hack and slahs? I mean sparring matches, and, more importantly, striking with club from behind to render foe unconscious?

I suppose sparring matches could be simulated by using tiny criticals, but i have no idea for the other case. In crush-table there are almost none unconscious-results, and mos of them are lethal. I want non-lethal way to make foes unconscious.

TY:)

[jurasketu]

From Base HARP - Chapter 10, Combat Actions

Subdual: At times, characters may wish to strike a foe
without utilizing their entire force for the blow, in an effort
to disable or subdue a target. This action receives a -20
modifier to the attack roll. Should the attack still result in
severe damaging effects, the character may adjust the result
to any other lesser critical on the same table at their leisure.

Works great. We use it for "sparring" all the time with Hack N Slash. Just to be clear - the "adjust" to lesser critical means lowering the final result roll to whatever you want.

Robin

[ictus]

in reality there is no such thing as non lethal combat.

there are combats with rules that reduce the risk of serious injury.

the most important rule often being to match opponents usually by size. After all if I went into a fight with a heavyweights boxer, even if I had some training, I'd most likely suffer serious injury or death within a few blows, yet as the opponents are usually matched then both offensive and defensive abilities are similar.

The trick here though is to simulate knockouts or submissions, which neither HARP or RM as they stand simulate well, and require extra rules for. What rules you apply is upto you, I'd go for an exhaustion points system, giving each combatant X number of exhaustion points and when they are gone they are gone, but in game I'd be relatively off the cuff with how I played it, but I'm sure someone would like a shot at specific rules perhaps for a HB.

[Fidoric]

IIRC, there was a critical table in RMSS or RM2 named "Subdual" whose purpose was axactly that.
As for a system to simulate sparring, maybe you can devise something like converting attack rolls into maneuvers with results over 100 giving 1 round of stun per 20 points. If you use Hack & Slash, it says that if you receive more than your CO bonus in rounds of stun and fail a Stamina RR (170 if think), you fall inconscious (KO). This way you don't risk any serious wounds. That's not very realistic but may help.

[Right Wing Wacko]

I use grappling crits or brawling/strike and we tend to understand the damage is "non-lethal" but is still applied...

Also, those situations seldom arise, and even then, role-playing opponents realistically(smart)- and PC's -know when they are beat(way too many rounds of stun mainly)... and cry "uncle". At that point they are effectively subdued/captured/held.

It is really up to the GM and players to decide on how they are going to handle such situations. A little common sense, you and your players ideas, and some rules tweaking is what it boils down to.

[Aaron]

Oops... i missed the subdual-action:D

Hmm... No i have more than enough suggestions for sparring, thanks for that. But i'm looking for one-strike-knockout from behind, like those in thief-series. One hit with blackjack and foe is unconscious.

I'm not sure if i'm gonna use that, i'm planning an thiefery-themed campaing and i don't want my players to kill every lone guard... Still considering if i want the blackjack to be the answer.

[jurasketu]

Sorry. I missed the attack from behind to knock portion of the question...

Bonking people on the head to knock them out has always utterly annoyed me in movie land...

As someone who has been hit on the head a few times [all accidentally]. It's NOT like the fool movies. You can knock someone out - but unless you applied sufficient force to put them in a coma (and possibly kill them) - they don't STAY knocked out very long - anywhere from a few seconds to maybe a minute at MOST. And you have no guarantee of anything more than a stun - which they might resist and then where will kindness have gotten you - a likely fight to the death? Worse, gonking someone on the head will cause them to FALL and likely make a serious racket. So, if you're going for the subdual and don't care about time or noise - the Subdual Action fits the bill.

One of the best ways to "knock out" someone is a choke-hold (applied with arm or cord) that cuts the blood supply to the brain temporarily. They fall unconscious and you can lower them safely and they stay groggy for a while. At least that what this ex-British Commando I knew taught me...

Of course, since we have nice, much safer magic alternatives, I recommend a simple Sleep spell instead.... Or Quiet Ways... Or combo...

Robin

[Fidoric]

I completely agree with Jurasketu. It's very hard to knock s.o. out by hitting him on the back of the head. Generally he will be stunned. The best way to deal with sentries IS to choke them into inconscience. It does work pretty well and remains rather silent. From this position, you can also throw yourself violently to the ground, breaking the neck of your opponent in the process and likely killing him in the process.
Another way to neutralize a sentry without killing him is to catch both his ankles, lift them up to make him fall flat on the ground and then kick him as hard you can between the legs... not very quiet, but efficient. There again, your poor sentry will be knocked out but not for very long.
I hope it helps.

[Aaron]

Yea, it certainly helps, choking is great idea:) Hmm.. maybe it could be an MA style, i want it to be skill so not every one is choking others:D Resolution wit RR-table, defending skill MA throws (to throw choker over you), MA strikes (to hit choker to belly) or pure str/str (to force choke open). On the second round the victim has -20 to actuons due to brain suffering from lack of oxygen, victim passes out on the end of the second round if not being able to breack the choke. Subskill (-40): Break the neck. Defending skills are any MA-skill (due to being trained to counter that move) or ag/str. If attacker succeeds, victim is dead/in coma, if not, defender is freed and both are prone.

MA-skills are there to make somebody apple to resist the choking, and i wanted to make subskill hard so that it's an emenergency option (another sentry aproaching), not an easy kill. Not so realistic, i know, but better for gamestyle. But just to make sure, is 2 rounds around the right time to choke someone to unconciousnes?

[masque1223]

Technically, what you're referring to is strangling or throttling.  One can choke on food, Strangling or throttling is done to them.  I'd say 2 rounds is too short, it takes 10 to 15 seconds to cause unconsciousness from strangling, so I'd say 5-8 rounds.

[Aaron]

thanks masque, i have no personal experince from strangling, so i have no idea how long brains can function without oxygen.

Why do i always post before reading books.. I had too much time in swedish lesson, and did some reading. Much easier to make MA style to use medium grappling attacks, and allow it only to be used with suprise (same conditions as ambush). Strangling is essentially grapling, that table has lots of stuns and people with too many rounds of stun tend to pass out:P (if more rounds of stun than con-bonus, then have to beat stamina-rr versus (170+ (5 per round of stun)) or pass out)

Thanks from ideas guys, i would not have thought of strangling on my own:)

[masque1223]

Well, to be fair, I haven't strangled anyone.  Yet.   

I just looked at wikipedia, I knew it was longer than 4 seconds though, from books and movies.

[Aaron]

Of course, since we have nice, much safer magic alternatives, I recommend a simple Sleep spell instead.... Or Quiet Ways... Or combo...

Robin

But multiple guards falling asleep is likely to attract attention of mages, and spells can be traced to their caster. Stranglers are much harder to track:D

[Fidoric]

Thanks from ideas guys, i would not have thought of strangling on my own:)

Technically, what you're referring to is strangling or throttling.  One can choke on food, Strangling or throttling is done to them.  I'd say 2 rounds is too short, it takes 10 to 15 seconds to cause unconsciousness from strangling, so I'd say 5-8 rounds.

You're welcome Aaron.
When using a length of rope to strangle someone, you also cut down the blood stream to the brain, causing it to shut down very quickly. I would recommend something between 4 seconds and 10. In that case, absolutely no air can be breathed, whereas when you choke on something, you usually can breathe a little.
I will give it a try and let you know