Topic: song of mastery true

[feanor]

hi everybody,
i would like to ask a question about this spell.

the bard spell "song of mastery" (13th lvl Controlling Songs) says you can control the target and specifies that you can't alien him completely (i.e. no suicide); the spell "song of mastery true" (25th lvl Controlling Songs) instead doesn't specify you can't alien the target completely if just says target must obey caster.
my question is:
can you control a target ordering him to suicide or the difference between "song of mastery" and "song of mastery true" is only about duration?

thx for your attention

[dutch206]

The spell description for the level 25 spell says "As Calm Song True".  CST states that it works just like Calm Song except for the duration difference.

IMHO, this means the level 25 spell does not allow mutilation or suicide suggestions.

However, please see the 50th level spell on the Evil Mentalist Mind Subversion list.  This is the only spell I know of that will allow you to suggest someone should commit suicide.  (An evil GM can also have fun with the evil cleric "Friendslayer's Curse" spell)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

dutch is correct -- the 25th level spell works just like the 13th level one, except for duration.

[feanor]

thx all

another question about this spell.
may a bard casting this spell control the target forcing him to defend the bard himself and asking the target to fight against his own allies?

[Ecthelion]

We always had it this way and I don't see why this should not be allowed.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

thx all

another question about this spell.
may a bard casting this spell control the target forcing him to defend the bard himself and asking the target to fight against his own allies?

If the action would not be completely alien to him, then yes. If it would be, then no. It basically boils down to the personality of the target. Somebody with little to no loyalty to their friends would easily turn on those friends and defend the caster (again, whether or not he will attack those (now) ex-friends is yet another issue), while a target who has a strong sense of honor or loyalty would not do so.

With spells like these, there is never any absolute answer.

[feanor]

it's absolutely about that Song of Mastery true it's NOT: "as song of mastery" except for duration like nearly all the "true" spells on that list and like nearly all rolemaster spells; it is "as calm song true" except target must obey the caster.
then as u know everybody can use his own houserules but me and my group will use this spell admitting complete alienation infact u should think that a 25th level spell can't have the same effect of an 8th level spell (i.e. master of kind, spirit mastery, closed essence) with even a restriction addicted compared with that because controlling songs spells force the bard in performing to have the spell last while for other spells (again i.e. master of kind, you cast it and then you can perform other actions having a duration of 10min/lvl).
About other spells that can alieant target give a look to magus base lists, or way of voice of astrologers and many other else.

P.S. our group discussed about it for so long after making this decision not easy to take but even in REALITY there are cases of music stars who can manipulate their fans in committing alien acts so why not in a game?

P.P.S. even if new on this forum it's 15 years that we play rolemaster

The spell description for the level 25 spell says "As Calm Song True".  CST states that it works just like Calm Song except for the duration difference.

IMHO, this means the level 25 spell does not allow mutilation or suicide suggestions.

However, please see the 50th level spell on the Evil Mentalist Mind Subversion list.  This is the only spell I know of that will allow you to suggest someone should commit suicide.  (An evil GM can also have fun with the evil cleric "Friendslayer's Curse" spell)

[rboleyn]

it's absolutely about that Song of Mastery true it's NOT: "as song of mastery" except for duration like nearly all the "true" spells on that list and like nearly all rolemaster spells; it is "as calm song true" except target must obey the caster.
then as u know everybody can use his own houserules but me and my group will use this spell admitting complete alienation infact u should think that a 25th level spell can't have the same effect of an 8th level spell (i.e. master of kind, spirit mastery, closed essence) with even a restriction addicted compared with that because controlling songs spells force the bard in performing to have the spell last while for other spells (again i.e. master of kind, you cast it and then you can perform other actions having a duration of 10min/lvl).
About other spells that can alieant target give a look to magus base lists, or way of voice of astrologers and many other else.

For one thing, all the 'True' spells on that list (barring Calm Song True, of course) refer back to Calm Song True, so this doesn't really prove very much.

More usefully, if Song of Mastery True can be used to force suicide, it is more powerful than the higher level Song of Coma and Slaying Song because it replicates their effects (coma or death), and allows other effects as well - turning the target into your slave for the spell's duration is a pretty powerful effect all on its own, especially with the indefinite duration of the spell.