Topic: Presence - direction and distance?

[Jengada]

The description for Presence doesn't say anything about direction or distance to the sensed sentient/thinking beings. Do other GMs give that information, or just "you sense 4 other beings within range"? As a low-level spell, I could see it just giving that information, but there's no higher level version that adds more precise location within range.
I've done it both ways in my game, as well as generalizing distance/direction - "You sense 4 beings. Three are ahead of you to the right, one straight ahead. The one straight ahead feels closer/stronger than the others."

[Elrich Maltah]

This question also came up in my session last night, but with Awareness. The GM ruled that it did not give precise location, claiming that other spells did that instead. Looking at it now, though, I think that might've been inaccurate because the description for Feel says that the "being must first be located by Presence or Presence True," implying that Presence (and Awareness, by extension) do give precise locations. Basically, it's mental sonar/radar system.

I think what my GM was looking at was either Finding or Direction, but that's based on looking for a specific target from Mind Store, which works the opposite direction by searching for a specific target.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Back in my RM2 days, all I gave was a number... and the players had to remember that the number usually included their own party members, including the caster. The spell description is just, "Caster is aware of the presence of all sentient/thinking beings within his range."

[Jengada]

This question also came up in my session last night, but with Awareness. The GM ruled that it did not give precise location, claiming that other spells did that instead. Looking at it now, though, I think that might've been inaccurate because the description for Feel says that the "being must first be located by Presence or Presence True," implying that Presence (and Awareness, by extension) do give precise locations. Basically, it's mental sonar/radar system.

I think what my GM was looking at was either Finding or Direction, but that's based on looking for a specific target from Mind Store, which works the opposite direction by searching for a specific target.

Yes, I was trying to figure out how this compares to Finding. That's a more restricted, higher level (7th) spell. The target must first be Mind Stored, and then Finding will only tell the caster about that one person. The range (100'/level) is much greater than for Presence (10'/level), but that's the only factor making Finding more powerful. I'm now thinking that for a free, 1st level spell, Presence should just be how many sentient beings in range. And maybe there's a big opening for a new, higher level version, that gives distance/direction.

[Hurin]

Yes, I am pretty sure Presence just gives you the number of beings within range of the spell; that's it. Not location within that.

[Amano]

That would make it rather difficult to use mind store when multiple intelligent beings are present.

RMU beta spell law list notes clarify this issue somewhat, giving proximity  (how close to caster) to within 10’ and determination of direction for 1ap, while also allowing minds to be allocated to observed intelligent beings.

[jdale]

RMU currently says:
Note: The “Presence” ability detects minds of better than animal intelligence (i.e., creatures with the “Animalistic” or “Mindless” flaws are not detected). The caster will be aware of proximity to within 10' distance, and a 1 AP action will provide general direction (above, below, left, right, before, or behind) to one mind. If a detected mind belongs to a seen and recognized (as intelligent) being, then the caster will be able to identify the detected mind as belonging to that being.

Mind Finding is still useful, but it's for finding specific known targets, and the range is better. It's not an improved radar version of Presence.

[cdcooley]

Presence is interesting because it is an instantaneous spell to cast but with a duration of concentration. My old interpretation seems compatible with the new RMU description.

I've always treated the instantaneous casting as letting the caster know how many minds are nearby and very roughly where they are (all ahead, mostly ahead, mostly behind, all around, all around but with a bigger cluster to the right, etc).

Then further concentration, possibly over many rounds, allows gathering more details. Family members, close friends, and long-time travelling companions, etc. can be identified with absolutely minimal activity, but determining if others have been encountered before would take concentration (and memory just like recognizing faces). Each round of concentration could identify one mind and determine the distance and direction to within a foot or so. After the mind is located it can be targeted with spells like Feel (and if in sight can also be identified more precisely for physical attacks or other interactions). Each round the caster can choose to focus on any one identified mind or the next closest unknown mind, either overall (in any direction) or within some arc. (i.e. Just how close is that presence behind me and has it been moving toward me?)

Even though it's an instantaneous spell for casting purposes, using this in a crowd is going to require a significant amount of time to get anything useful out of it.

[damage]

I don't give direction or distance, just a number. Since I run a high-level group with multiple sentient magic items, these days I just go with "you get the expected result" or "you get 2 more than the expected result".

Unless the party gets a sentient item they're not aware of, which can confuse things...

[Jengada]

I don't give direction or distance, just a number. Since I run a high-level group with multiple sentient magic items, these days I just go with "you get the expected result" or "you get 2 more than the expected result".

Unless the party gets a sentient item they're not aware of, which can confuse things...

After I started this thread, I realized the mystic (the one with Presence) also makes warded sticks for the party. She sets them so that when a stick is snapped, it releases "Leaping" and allows the holder to use that spell. But each stick will show up for a Presence spell, so before using it she will have to ask the whole party "How many sticks do you each have?" to figure out if anyone else is around.

I now want to put a bunch of weak wards all over a building just to mess her up.

[mrfantastic]

usually i use presence, mind store and finding and i give direction and distance

[rdanhenry]

I don't give direction or distance, just a number. Since I run a high-level group with multiple sentient magic items, these days I just go with "you get the expected result" or "you get 2 more than the expected result".

Unless the party gets a sentient item they're not aware of, which can confuse things...

After I started this thread, I realized the mystic (the one with Presence) also makes warded sticks for the party. She sets them so that when a stick is snapped, it releases "Leaping" and allows the holder to use that spell. But each stick will show up for a Presence spell, so before using it she will have to ask the whole party "How many sticks do you each have?" to figure out if anyone else is around.

I now want to put a bunch of weak wards all over a building just to mess her up.

Why would you think that those would show up on Presence? Even if you assumed some sort of logic function to activate the trigger through a form of "intelligence", it would still require far less intelligence than possessed by eyebrow mites.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Even if you assumed some sort of logic function to activate the trigger through a form of "intelligence", it would still require far less intelligence than possessed by eyebrow mites.

So, eyebrow mites are able to activate the trigger of such magic items? The more you know… :p

"Magical items so easy to use even eyebrow mites are able to activate them sold here! Cheap prices! Get yours!"

[Jengada]

I don't give direction or distance, just a number. Since I run a high-level group with multiple sentient magic items, these days I just go with "you get the expected result" or "you get 2 more than the expected result".

Unless the party gets a sentient item they're not aware of, which can confuse things...

After I started this thread, I realized the mystic (the one with Presence) also makes warded sticks for the party. She sets them so that when a stick is snapped, it releases "Leaping" and allows the holder to use that spell. But each stick will show up for a Presence spell, so before using it she will have to ask the whole party "How many sticks do you each have?" to figure out if anyone else is around.

I now want to put a bunch of weak wards all over a building just to mess her up.

Why would you think that those would show up on Presence? Even if you assumed some sort of logic function to activate the trigger through a form of "intelligence", it would still require far less intelligence than possessed by eyebrow mites.

Because it says in the description of Warding Ways that they "can be detected by a Presence spell."

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

That they can doesn't mean that they are (but they may).
I personally read it that it is possible for one to use a Presence spell to explicitly look for wards, but that such wards don't appear by default when such a spell is cast (they are not detected but they can be and may be).

[Jengada]

I suppose I could see that, OLF. Personally I've always thought of Wards as the caster leaving a small scrap of their psyche and that scrap casts the spell. That scrap would appear as a sentient being to the presence spell, then.
It also just feels simpler to have presence do one thing all the time, given it's a very low level spell.