Topic: Maneuver rolls without skills?

[buzz]

Does RM2/RMC assume that every maneuver roll falls under a skill — and thus, if a PC does not have any ranks in the skill, they roll at -25 — or can one roll solely using a stat bonus?

Context: We are playing a RM2 game after thirty years of being away from RM, and we had our first session today; this question came up when a PC was trying to haggle/negotiate with an NPC, and there was no skill that seemed to apply. I later looked through the various Companions, and while there are specific skills like Seduction or Taunting, there is no "persuasion" skill (or "bluff"), that I could find. The same situation came up with another PC doing research in a library — there is a Research skill in RMC1, but we we have been sticking to the core for the most part.

So, how do you handle rolls that don't test specific skills? Or do those kind of rolls not exist, by-the-book?

[Hurin]

I'm not sure if they exist by the book, but we certainly used to have maneuvers that were governed by stats rather than skills. If for example a character was trying to remember something like another character's name or something else s/he had heard, then I might make the character do a Memory roll.

While RM2's list of skills became very bloated, even it could not possibly account for every skill that every culture and individual developed over the course of the entire history of the multiverse. And there are some things (like a Memory check) that most characters should be able to do without having to have developed a skill for it.

[Spectre771]

There is a list of skills that cannot be attempted at all unless the PC has at least 1 rank in it.  I can look it up, but it's in one of the later Companions and we stick to that as the first decider of a PC attempting an unlearned skill.  Passing that step, I always like to give a PC a chance to try.  I'll give a -50 roll + the appropriate stat bonus.  Depending on what it is, I'll treat it as pass/fail, MM table on a suitable difficulty (if the result is a number, I'll treat that as a % chance to succeed and I'll roll the dice to see the result), or it is a contested roll and the highest result wins.

[jdale]

I would suggest always trying to find a skill whenever possible. For example in the case of Research, presumably although you are trying to use a library, what you really want to do is answer some kind of question. So there is probably a relevant lore skill (or maybe technical etc). What I always do first is ask the player, what skill do you have that's relevant? And then, how are you going to use this skill? They will often come up with something interesting, and sometimes it will add some roleplaying for them to work in that skill.

That said, if there really isn't, using just the appropriate stat bonus(es) seems ok (with an appropriate difficulty modifier).

[Malim]

For trading, use trading.
And in Campaign law there is a table for that.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

RM2 also has the similar skill tables, so if you're able to find a skill that would be able to cover what action the PC soever wants to perform but that he doesn't have, you may be able to grant him some rank equivalence through other skills.

[buzz]

What do you do for straight up “I want to persuade this NPC” tasks, though?

[cdcooley]

Trading or Seduction could both work for basic persuasion. Trading is fundamentally about convincing someone about the relative worth of two things so they will value the one you want lower than the one you're willing to give them. If you're trying to persuade someone about the value of doing or not doing something, trading can be applied even if you aren't actually exchanging something. Seduction is really about getting people to overcome normal restraints and embrace their emotional desires. So both skills persuade people, but in different ways.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Seduction, duping or diplomacy, I'd say, depending on how one wants to persuade, either appealing to emotional reasons, fast talks or logical reasons.

[Jengada]

The explosion of skills in the Companions and RMSS turned off a lot of my players, and I wasn't a fan. So I came up with a compromise:
1 - Primary skills. Original RM2 skill, plus "Pick pockets" and maybe one more. If a player tries something that would use these skills, but has no ranks, they have a -25.
2 - Approved Secondary skills. This is a short-list of about 15 skills I felt made sense in my campaign, but not at the level they should be "primary." I will ask for their bonus in these, if applicable. If a player tries something that would use these skills, but has no ranks, they have a 0.
3 - Other Secondary. If a player really wants one of these skills, they can develop it. I will never ask for it, though, I'll likely choose a stat bonus and go with that alone. If a player has developed the skill, though, they can volunteer that and get the bonus. Someone with no ranks has a default 0 rank bonus.

[buzz]

The explosion of skills in the Companions and RMSS turned off a lot of my players, and I wasn't a fan. So I came up with a compromise...

I like it.

Has anyone ever considered just ditching Secondary skills entirely and leaving anything outside the Primary list up to ad hoc maneuver rolls?

[nash]

Has anyone ever considered just ditching Secondary skills entirely and leaving anything outside the Primary list up to ad hoc maneuver rolls?

Then the only thing that matters is your stat bonuses most of the time.   And there is essentially nothing you can do to change them.   One thing I like about Rolemaster is you can customise your character.  This goes the other way.

[buzz]

Then the only thing that matters is your stat bonuses most of the time.   And there is essentially nothing you can do to change them.   One thing I like about Rolemaster is you can customise your character.  This goes the other way.

My intent is that the GM modifies the roll based on the character's profession and background. E.g., it might make sense that a bookish magician would be good at doing research, and so gets a bonus when they try to research something (as opposed to needing the Research skill).

(Secondary skills, especially once you get to RMC2, are so specific. And every time a Companion adds a new skill, it's like, "Oh, here's another thing your PC is -25 at if they don't have ranks.  )

[nash]

My intent is that the GM modifies the roll based on the character's profession and background. E.g., it might make sense that a bookish magician would be good at doing research, and so gets a bonus when they try to research something (as opposed to needing the Research skill).

This is where I'm confused.  If you reduce the number of skills, and just make everything based on class/race/stat isn't that just D&D? 

(Secondary skills, especially once you get to RMC2, are so specific. And every time a Companion adds a new skill, it's like, "Oh, here's another thing your PC is -25 at if they don't have ranks.  )

Sure, that's why you don't just add all of the optional skills in.  RMC2 was insane - we solved it by adding extra DP.

RMSS added a few extra skills over its life - was a lot by the end, but not overwhelming at any stage (lots of professions and spell lists was the big one).   Also RMSS categories meant new skills weren't too bad; as appropriate characters already had category bonuses, and getting 1 skill ranks gives non-trivial bonuses immediately (if you have the class).

[buzz]

This is where I'm confused.  If you reduce the number of skills, and just make everything based on class/race/stat isn't that just D&D? 

Maybe?

I'm just saying, Secondary Skills are an optional rule to begin with, right? So what if you didn't use them, and instead based maneuvers on rolling a stat modified by the PC's profession/race/culture/experiences/background/etc., and modified for difficulty. That's all.

Also RMSS categories meant new skills weren't too bad; as appropriate characters already had category bonuses, and getting 1 skill ranks gives non-trivial bonuses immediately (if you have the class).

Yeah, I like the way RMSS does it. I look forward to running it once we're done with our foray into RM2.