Author Topic: Enlarge and shrink spells  (Read 1381 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Enlarge and shrink spells
« on: November 20, 2022, 10:55:32 PM »
This is another "how have I played for 40 years and never choked on this?" observations.
These spells all state that they change the caster's or target's "mass (and usually height)" by a given percentage, with no change in STrength bonus. A couple of the versions, like the Mystic spells, include "(except for movement purposes)" after the statement about ST bonus.
For small % changes, that "usually height" may be a small matter, but changing to 10% original mass can't come with a change to 10% original height, the proportions and density changes would be all whack. And while we could just say "but magic," the implications can change the power of this spell substantially.
If the character is going to retain their original density and proportions, going to 10% mass would only change them to 50% original height. Doubling mass (increasing by 100%) would change height to just 25% above normal.
The unchanging ST bonus can be problematic, too, but I'm curious how others have played just the mass-height elements of this.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2022, 11:20:20 PM »
I had also thought about some of these considerations earlier this year. You might find some interesting bits in this topic, as well as some of the much older discussions mentioned therein.

Offline Jengada

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2022, 11:45:26 PM »
I had also thought about some of these considerations earlier this year. You might find some interesting bits in this topic, as well as some of the much older discussions mentioned therein.
Sorry - I had read that thread and meant to acknowledge it. It turned more to questions of gear, but now that I look at the first link you had in it, that's the direction of my concern. And from reading that whole thread, it doesn't seem anyone had a solid answer, either.
It also surprises me that the mass (and height) statement survived into RMSS, and I wonder if it's in RMU. In some ways RM is very reality-respectful, and sometimes it trips badly.
I also compared with D&D5e and Pathfinder comparable spells, they seem to have taken different tacks, including STrength effects of the changes.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 11:54:09 PM »
The problem with size changes is that, if you consider proportional increase in mass (so, roughly size increase to the power of 3), you quickly end up either with someone unable to stand upright or with someone who needs magic to do so.

I personally advocate a size increase with both linear strength increase (but not strength bonus - raw strength only) and corresponding linear mass increase, which translates into density reduction. I try not to think about the consequences of that.

Offline Jengada

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2022, 01:02:41 AM »
MisterK, your reply prompted a thought. The goal of the spell, overall, is to shrink or enlarge - it's a pretty classic fantasy idea, that a spell caster can do that to themself or something. Generally, as noted in the thread Elrich pointed to, the idea is about height, not mass. Few players sit and ponder mass changes, but growing taller or shorter is appealing in some situations. The no-ST bonus change rule in the spells as they stand is more of a play balance issue.
So I'm considering going with the spells changing height AND mass, and keeping height-width-depth proportions. What that means is a density change, so if someone shrinks to 10% height and mass, their density goes up 100x. Doubly size cuts density to 1/4. I can live with the idea that those density changes are sustained by the magic, and that they offset the size changes such that the ST bonus remains the same. A 12' tall, 1/4-density giant can still have a "meager" +10 or whatever they had at 6' tall. And that 7" tall miniature person is 100x as dense, so their "little" slap carries their normal ST bonus.
Of course, their 2" sword is not going to do the normal damage, it just can't cut that way!
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2022, 08:55:47 AM »

It also surprises me that the mass (and height) statement survived into RMSS, and I wonder if it's in RMU.

It has not. The basic spells allow change within the limits of the targets Size, while more powerful spells allow a change in Size (with the corresponding Size effects... I'm not sure how this is to be handled now that hits may need to be adjusted, whereas the original Size treatment handled all the scaling automatically). Since Size is mass-based, that is the limiting factor.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2022, 10:59:49 AM »
MisterK, your reply prompted a thought. The goal of the spell, overall, is to shrink or enlarge - it's a pretty classic fantasy idea, that a spell caster can do that to themself or something. Generally, as noted in the thread Elrich pointed to, the idea is about height, not mass. Few players sit and ponder mass changes, but growing taller or shorter is appealing in some situations. The no-ST bonus change rule in the spells as they stand is more of a play balance issue.
So I'm considering going with the spells changing height AND mass, and keeping height-width-depth proportions. What that means is a density change, so if someone shrinks to 10% height and mass, their density goes up 100x. Doubly size cuts density to 1/4. I can live with the idea that those density changes are sustained by the magic, and that they offset the size changes such that the ST bonus remains the same. A 12' tall, 1/4-density giant can still have a "meager" +10 or whatever they had at 6' tall. And that 7" tall miniature person is 100x as dense, so their "little" slap carries their normal ST bonus.
Of course, their 2" sword is not going to do the normal damage, it just can't cut that way!
I can see why you would do that, but strength is not merely a function of mass, far from it - even raw strength with a swing is a function of muscle power (to swing a given weapon mass) and of swing arc reach - this is why impact weapons tend to have most of their mass concentrated on the business end. Arc reach is a function of size, so, muscle power being equal, the one with the longest reach will not only have the advantage of reach but will also hit harder.

If it hits. This is why I stated that I increased the *raw ST* and not the *ST modifier* - raw strength is the ability to lift, carry and swing. ST modifier is the ability to swing effectively, and it requires coordination with that particular body size, muscle mass and weight repartition. A person shifting size would likely be suddenly very much off-balance, even more so if mass doesn't increase proportionately.

Changing density is a huge issue for me because of the side effects - if you're 10 times less dense (slightly more than x2 size increase on each axis), your average density suddenly becomes 1/10th that of water - your *blood* becomes 10 times less dense than it usually is. Conversely, if you shrink by a factor of 5, your density would increase by a factor of 25 (taking into account your rule of mass change) - or denser than *iridium* (and likely almost immune to most normal weapons). And because of the relation between size and momentum, you would have the same mass but 1/5th the momentum, and I would assume you would largely be unable to move.

Honestly, I think it's better to forget about most of the consequences : assume that flesh stays flesh and, as such, of similar density. Size changes alter mass in proportion in order to maintain density (which means that magic creates or removes mass temporarily, and quite a bit of it), and while raw strength is altered, effective strength is not, but the size change affects impact in a linear way (so a size increase of 10% will generate 10% more impact, or concussion hits). If the character goes into the large or above sizes, allow them to have monster-like benefits from it (I or II), increase pace, but reduce initiative and DB.

Another, potentially interesting way to handle those spells would be to consider them as self-regenerating all-senses physical illusions that also affect the target - the target feels their new body, other people feel the new body, but the new body does not *really* exist - no more than a physical illusion does, anyway. It solves all the strength and body mass issues, but I'm not sure it does not create others :) One problem with that interpretation is that Illusionists would be jealous of such spells, given that replicating it with their own spells would require significantly more power :p

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2022, 12:59:17 PM »
As the original poster of the thread about applying the square-cube law to RM2, reflecting the size change to RM stats, especially ST is a non-issue. Taking "Living Change" as the basis for all such spells, I'll explain why.

The spell that allows the biggest size increase is "Enlarge", that allows a 10% mass increase by caster's level. Even at level 30, it's a +300% mass increase, which is a (cubic root of 4) size increase or x1.587. What does it mean? Well, a 1.8 m human man would have his size increase to 2.85 m... which is merely about the size of a typical forest troll. What about it? Well, merely change the ST bonus of said human man to the bonus of the forest troll and be done with it. Considering RM2 covers up to the Cyclops that are about 4.5 taller than the average man, thus equal a +9012.5% mass increase to said man... So using this easy rule (and coherent with the RM2 rules), you don't have to worry until you have a (granted, human) spellcaster whose level is more than 901...

On the opposite size, the mass may decrease up to 10% of its original, so the matching size would be the (cube root of 0.1) or x0.46. So my 1.8 m man would now be 84 cm... which is about the size of a halfling. Not even a quarterling! So, just do the same as above and change the human ST bonus to a halfling ST bonus and be done with it.

Note: giant races have damage multipliers due to their size so you may also want to apply these but, really, otherwise, there's no need to do more than merely considering the resulting character as a character of a race matching his new height.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2022, 03:33:27 PM »
From a game mechanics standpoint, you increase size and "A change in Size category carries with it all the normal advantages and disadvantages of the new Size." One size larger, same stat and stat bonus. As a rule of thumb, a +1 size increase results in x4 weight increase. Your hits will also change, if you go from Medium to Big that's x1.5.

You don't need to modify the character's strength stat or stat bonus to already get an increase in their carrying capacity or their effective weight for feats of strength, those are both based on their weight. Any modification to their attacks is going to come from the size adjustment already.

If you are concerned about realism of the various physical parameters, those parameters should be set based on the game mechanics, rather than trying to replace the game mechanics based on whatever assumptions you make about the physical parameters. In other words, start by assuming the spell does what it says.
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Offline brole

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2022, 09:16:28 PM »
You don't need to modify the character's strength stat or stat bonus to already get an increase in their carrying capacity or their effective weight for feats of strength, those are both based on their weight. Any modification to their attacks is going to come from the size adjustment already.

That was my take on this also.
As for increase to hits (and penalties to other manoeuvres) that depends on the GM and whether they consider character weight from the start when calculating hits.

If you want to calculate height from a change in mass... assume character build does not change.. BMI (body mass index) remains the same.

From this plug into excel where lbs is character's weight in pounds. Output is character's height in inches.

=SQRT((lbs/2.20462)/BMI)*100/2.54

Example cross reference BMI for Rolemaster build
Thin 18
Slight 19
Slender 20
Average 22
Stocky 24
Heavy 26
Stout 28
Huge 30

Also there is a page to calculate height from BMI and weight here
http://www.scymed.com/en/smnxpn/pndhc226.htm


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Offline jdale

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2022, 10:03:00 PM »
For some crazy reason, those guys capped their calculator at 880 lbs. :)
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Offline brole

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 01:31:22 AM »
For some crazy reason, those guys capped their calculator at 880 lbs. :)


I guess they just didn't anticipate hill trolls or spell users.  :D
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2022, 10:38:12 AM »
For some crazy reason, those guys capped their calculator at 880 lbs. :)


I guess they just didn't anticipate hill trolls or spell users.  :D
\
Or a cave troll.  ;D

Offline jdale

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2022, 12:11:10 PM »
I suspect doctors get a little antsy when their receptionists start yelling "they have a cave troll!"
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Enlarge and shrink spells
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2022, 05:20:48 PM »
I suspect doctors get a little antsy when their receptionists start yelling "they have a cave troll!"
It's that kind of attitude from a doctor's office that gets me looking for another doctor. If they can't handle a cave troll, how do I know they can take care of me, either?
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