Topic: Hireling Costs

[Prince Finnion]

I have a player who wants to invest his loot into a business.  Specifically he wants to by a boat, or boats and start a shipping business and hire a boat captain and crew offering a monthly wage.  Great idea for steady income but there is reference that I've found for wages. 

Has anyone found anything like this or possibly created one that would be helpful?

Thanks in advance.

[Hurin]

Perhaps there is something in Sea Law?

[Jengada]

I've run into similar questions about cost of hiring someone, though for very different reasons. I don't have a table I use, or anything, but I usually look at the ballpark cost of an average meal and lodging as a starting point, then inflate above that by varying amounts based on the rarity or difficulty of the work they want to hire.
For example, if a meal is 1 sp and lodging is 5 sp (totally guessing here), then daily cost for just those in town is something like 8 sp. Weekly is maybe 40 sp (trimming for shopping in volume), monthly is maybe 160 sp or 150 if you like 50-tuples.
If the hireling is relatively unskilled, just go with this. For a profession that would involve apprenticeship and/or union and/or supervising, go to something like 250-300 sp/month. A position that requires materials (blacksmith, alchemist, tanner) would have added costs for their basic staples.
For a ship's captain, there's definitely wear and tear on the boat, and risk at sea, both of which would raise the cost of owning the boat and hiring them.

[intothatdarkness]

Perhaps there is something in Sea Law?

Yep. Sea Law has ship and crew costs. There's also stuff on maintaining ships.

[MisterK]

I've run into similar questions about cost of hiring someone, though for very different reasons. I don't have a table I use, or anything, but I usually look at the ballpark cost of an average meal and lodging as a starting point, then inflate above that by varying amounts based on the rarity or difficulty of the work they want to hire.
For example, if a meal is 1 sp and lodging is 5 sp (totally guessing here), then daily cost for just those in town is something like 8 sp. Weekly is maybe 40 sp (trimming for shopping in volume), monthly is maybe 160 sp or 150 if you like 50-tuples.
If the hireling is relatively unskilled, just go with this. For a profession that would involve apprenticeship and/or union and/or supervising, go to something like 250-300 sp/month. A position that requires materials (blacksmith, alchemist, tanner) would have added costs for their basic staples.
For a ship's captain, there's definitely wear and tear on the boat, and risk at sea, both of which would raise the cost of owning the boat and hiring them.

The general idea (starting with basic costs and going from there) is sound, but I would be very wary of costs of meals and lodging - those are provided for inn/tavern fare, which is definitely not how average people live (that would be the equivalent of living in a hotel all the time - it inflates the cost of living significantly because you are buying living as a service, which most working people don't).

More generally, I wouls stay clear of all cost references that are "standard prices for adventurers" - once again because adventurers are something that has no real impact on how actual people live.

This said, I try to find my sources online when I can, and using Harn as a handy reference in a pinch. It uses a silver-based economy, where the average servant is paid 1d (1 silver penny) a day for their work (incidentally, this is also the average wage for the common soldier, but soldiers get booty as an additional benefit). With this model, deck hands are paid 1/2 to 2d a day depending on their skill level and their guilded status, with other ship crew positions being paid more accordingly.

As a point of reference, a hot meal (at a tavern) is 1d on average. A broadsword is 150d.

[Majyk]

For Jengada’s good example payment scenarios, add 1.5 times those amounts or double them.
They only take into account someone subsisting(food, drink, a roof) vs living.
After expenses, someone will want to have something left over for any and everything else.


MisterK has got it, too.


Admittedly, there was not much free time being a Serf, but Freemen and Labourers did get more than just being able to pay for food, drink, and a place to stay, daily.

[Jengada]

The general idea (starting with basic costs and going from there) is sound, but I would be very wary of costs of meals and lodging - those are provided for inn/tavern fare, which is definitely not how average people live (that would be the equivalent of living in a hotel all the time - it inflates the cost of living significantly because you are buying living as a service, which most working people don't).

and

For Jengada’s good example payment scenarios, add 1.5 times those amounts or double them.

The greater cost of meals out that MisterK cites is my way of doing the increase Majyk mentions. And then I bump it up, based on profession of the hireling. Alternatively you could split hirelings into categories like serf, freemen, laborers, and then use light/normal/heavy meals and average/good lodging as a way to frame those costs.

[Spectre771]

The problem with assigning a cost is that it's all relative.  What is the economy for your world?  Is it a lot of cities or small villages?  Do you award a lot of coin from adventures or from baddies?  How much wealth do you want to manage with the PCs?

The economy is based on silver in my world.  Gold is common in the bigger cities but silver and copper rule in the smaller towns.  Where the players are now, up north in the cold/icy areas, trade and survival equipment is more valuable than a cold piece of coin.

The cheap, easy answer is "Hirelings cost as much as you want them to cost."  Only you know what the value of the coin is in your realm.  Based on my economy, and an 8-day week, base rate is 8 silver, but costs for meals and goods are coppers so the silver per day is probably 'minimum wage'.  Skilled labor add 5 to 10 copper.  Risking life (bodyguard, caravan guard, etc.) add 3-5 silver per day.  Hiring an NPC who is a higher level than the PCs, I would go into gold pieces per day.

We don't do long-term hirelings though.  I have played in a game where the DM allowed us to invest in properties, earn an income or get some perks, but we had to manage all the costs ourselves.  It was too much paperwork and micromanaging for the GM so the players were responsible.

[Prince Finnion]

Thanks for all the input guys, really great ideas and a couple that led me down a different way of thinking.  I'm using the ... And a 10 Foot Pole source book for the Iron Age costs as my setting is Celtic and it seemed most closely appropriate.  The 30 ft Longboat carries 7000lbs of cargo.  So now I need to figure the cost of the goods, average cargo load in lbs, and that will give me a gross income.  I can then figure expenses, wages, etc. and come up with the PC's average monthly income, which is what he was asking.  I'll probably use the Purchase and Resale Price Chart which will add some flavor in the form of possible Swindle, Theft, or Armed Theft (which would increase expenses if he needs to hire armed security).  I think this will make it fun for the players.

Thanks again.

[Jengada]

Thanks for all the input guys, really great ideas and a couple that led me down a different way of thinking.  I'm using the ... And a 10 Foot Pole source book for the Iron Age costs as my setting is Celtic and it seemed most closely appropriate.  The 30 ft Longboat carries 7000lbs of cargo.  So now I need to figure the cost of the goods, average cargo load in lbs, and that will give me a gross income.  I can then figure expenses, wages, etc. and come up with the PC's average monthly income, which is what he was asking.  I'll probably use the Purchase and Resale Price Chart which will add some flavor in the form of possible Swindle, Theft, or Armed Theft (which would increase expenses if he needs to hire armed security).  I think this will make it fun for the players.

Thanks again.

One more suggestion based on the work you just assigned to yourself: ask the player to do this, and bring it back to you as a suggestion. That way you can focus on stuff for the whole party, and the player gets to paint the picture they want. Plus, the player learns how much work it is to manage hirelings 

[Nightblade42]

As another alternative, Castles & Ruins has wage suggestions.  War Law also has information on the price for maintaining an army (including equipment & food costs).  Both are good resources in this vein.

Nightblade ->--

[Prince Finnion]

Thanks for all the input guys, really great ideas and a couple that led me down a different way of thinking.  I'm using the ... And a 10 Foot Pole source book for the Iron Age costs as my setting is Celtic and it seemed most closely appropriate.  The 30 ft Longboat carries 7000lbs of cargo.  So now I need to figure the cost of the goods, average cargo load in lbs, and that will give me a gross income.  I can then figure expenses, wages, etc. and come up with the PC's average monthly income, which is what he was asking.  I'll probably use the Purchase and Resale Price Chart which will add some flavor in the form of possible Swindle, Theft, or Armed Theft (which would increase expenses if he needs to hire armed security).  I think this will make it fun for the players.

Thanks again.

One more suggestion based on the work you just assigned to yourself: ask the player to do this, and bring it back to you as a suggestion. That way you can focus on stuff for the whole party, and the player gets to paint the picture they want. Plus, the player learns how much work it is to manage hirelings 

Update:  I took some of your advice and asked the player for input and thought I had it worked out... Then he decided he wanted to micro-manage the entire operation.  I tried to explain that he hired a captain for that but he insisted.  So I showed him how difficult and time consuming it is, in real game time which the other players did not appreciate, and I've used the captain to "find" more profitable cargo.  I think that is starting to work.  There's also the logistics of a party of 8 players, two large pets (the player who owns the boat is a Beastmaster and another just got really lucky), and a crew of 6 on a 40 foot boat.  Not to mention that there's also a Ranger in the party and the more they stay on this boat the more crippling it is to their builds.... but what do I know?

[Malim]

Make him play ports of call and "translate" his PC gold into dollars
Or just make him invest a gold sum, and then make a luck/trading roll to see what the earning is.
Lets say 100 gold and after 1 month of ship trading etc he rolls on the trading table from character law p.23 and rolls a total ( skill incl.) of 107 he only gets 70% of what he invested. He could get bonus from the tables below, unusual +10, very usefull +10 etc.
But to start doing a business adventure is hard, will he be on board ship at all times.. since he cant control his boat via mobile phone etc.

[gog]

Would at this point suggest looking at Sea Law...

[Petard]

I would look at the background economy, and simply declare what profit it "ought" to make. Historically in the days of sail coasting boats earned enough profit to pay for the ship over about ten years - risks of loss, major rebuild at twenty years you see. BUT you have to guesstimate the loss risk - a storm wipes the investment.  Long haul a tea clipper also paid build costs over roughly ten years - so 10% of ship cost profit per year is a realistic return but with a 5 to 10% risk per year of loss or serious (expensive) damage.

[dranthor]

One of the things I have done over quiet a while timewise was to come up with a definitive cost guide.  I've used multiple RM books and other systems to come up with it.  For sea travel I have the following costs. Sorry abot the wa this looks I'll aslo add it as an attachement  - my world is based on silver standard
Ships Crew cost per month   cost (gp)            Notes
Captain   30            25% loot share
First Lieutnant   10            5% loot share
Firs Mate   10            5% loot share
Commissioned officers   5            5% loot share
warren officers   3            5% loot share
pilot   10            5% loot share
navigator   10            5% loot share
Pilot's mate   3            5% loot share
quartermaster   3            5% loot share
master at arms   5            5% loot share
chief gunner   4            5% loot share
surgeon   10            5% loot share
healer   10            5% loot share
boat swain   3            5% loot share
sailmaster   3            5% loot share
carpenter   7            5% loot share
seaman poor   0.05            
seaman green   0.1            
seaman reservist   0.15            
seaman regular   0.2            
seaman veteran   0.25            
seaman elite   0.3            
seaman crack   0.35            
marine poor   0.15            
marine green   0.2            
marine reservist   0.25            
marine regular   0.3            
marine veteran   0.35            
marine elite   0.4            
marine crack   0.45            
oarsman poor   0.35            
oarsman green   0.4            
oarsman reservist   0.45            
oarsman regular   0.5            
oarsman veteran   0.55            
oarsman elite   0.6            
oarsman crack   0.65            
oarsman slave   25            one time cost; frowned upon by some cultures