Author Topic: how would you rule some combinations of effects... and can you think of others?  (Read 1781 times)

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Offline Warl

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So how would you rule these two situations..

A magician casts a water bolt or ball at a target and then follows it up with a Ice bolt ball.
or even if the target was some how otherwise doused in water,
would you Grant a bonus to the Ice spells effects on that target?

What about the same situation, target is drench, but then the attacker hits them with a Fire bolt or fire ball, would your grant a penalty to the attack?

Any other combinations like these you can think of where you might rule a Bonus/penalty?
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Offline Cory Magel

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I wouldn't grant any bonuses or penalties.  I'm going to assume the magnitude of the elemental attack is significant enough that those factors would be insignificant.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

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Offline Spectre771

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I wouldn't grant any bonuses or penalties.  I'm going to assume the magnitude of the elemental attack is significant enough that those factors would be insignificant.

I would have to agree with this.  The impact of the attack is near immediate.  It's not as if the person were soaking wet and sitting outside in the snow and was slowly getting hypothermia, frostbite, death, frozen solid.  Being soaking wet would certainly speed that process versus being dry.  The Ice/Cold/Frost attack is like getting hit by a ball of ice in a snowball fight.  Soaking wet or not, that initial hit is what hurts and does the damage.

However, I will say this; being the GM allows you to improvise.  If the attack hit and did a minor crit, I would say that the target feels his clothing starting to freeze up and -5 to actions, or -10 if it was a severe crit.  In either case, play off the crit results and add a bit of a penalty to being soaking wet.  But from experience.... 99-E cold crit doesn't matter if you're wet or not... you're frozen solid, but quite well preserved.

Oddly, the Fire/Heat when soaking wet wouldn't have the same protective abilities you would think it has.  I say this from real life experiences having grown up in the family restaurant for 21 years, then being a firefighter for another 13 years.  The last thing you want in your protection from direct heat source is wet gear.  The first mistake I made when I was cooking was trying to grab a hot dish out of a wok that had been steaming for 7 minutes.  I tried to take the dish out with a towel to protect my fingers.  The heat went through the towel and started to burn and I knew I couldn't make it from the stove to the counter top in time so I grabbed a towel and thought "water will keep my fingers cool enough to grab this."  I wet the towel with cool water and grabbed the dish.  The heat transferred through the water directly to my finger tips so quickly I burned the fingerprints off my fingers and dropped the dish.  It was near instant burns.

The second incident was in a fire.  The run off water from the fire had pooled around my feet and I had no idea.  I knelt down to get a better stance and by applying weight to my knee, I forced the water through my gear and burned my knee in a matter of seconds.  I fell to the side and put my hand down into the water and that soaked through my glove and burned my hand.

The same theory can be applied as was for the cold.  The person is soaking wet and gradual heat is applied. They would be able to stay cooler for a longer period of time until the water dried up.  However, when you flash heat water, it turns to steam and steam is hell of a lot hotter than water.  Steam burns are what we try to avoid at all costs as it is vapor and isn't affected by gravity the way boiling water is.  Water goes downhill.  If one is properly protected, the water rolls off the helmet, over the bunker gear, down the pants, onto the floor.  It shouldn't have a path through the gear to the person inside.  Vapor seeps in anywhere, is hotter than boiling water, and does more damage more quickly.  The poor, wet guy in the armour would be steamed like a lobster.  The Fire ball may not have killed him outright, but being steamed to death would do it.  And wouldn't you know?  RM has a Steam Crit Table!!!

I guess the simple answer would have been: Add maneuver penalty for wet target/cold blast for freezing clothes.  Add Steam crit for wet target/heat attack.  The severity of the additional penalty being dependent upon the severity of the initial crit.

A-E Cold crit = -5, -10, -15, -20, -25 to actions

A-E Heat crit = Steam crit one severity level lower as it is a secondary crit, not a primary crit.  An A-Heat crit shouldn't produce too much steam damage, whereas an E-Heat crit should produce a pretty severe D-Steam Crit.
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Offline Cory Magel

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The only time I've ever been even thought about messing with elemental attacks and how they react from a physics standpoint is electrical attacks.  Lightning bolt for example.  Does a group standing in water partially turn it into a AOE spell (and that could be bad for everyone)?  Does armor actually HELP you because it acts as a faraday cage?  Or does the proximity of the armor to your skin (and remember there's padding between it and the wearer) make it more dangerous for you?  Does the padding light on fire as a result?  And if the lightning bolt originates from the caster and the party tank in armor is standing next to the caster is the tank in jeopardy?

Nope on all of it.  Why?  It's magic.

Whenever I start down that path I always come to the conclusion that this level of realism is rarely beneficial to the game.  While I love the increased realism of RM over other systems, IMO, this crosses the threshold of fun vs realism.
- Cory Magel

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(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

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Offline Spectre771

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I guess there has to be a nice line between fun and realism.  At the very least though, I would juice everyone standing in the puddle of water! LOL  Come on... it's electricity and water!!!  That just has "FUN" written all over it and it keeps the PCs on their toes.

Going as far as igniting the padding between the wearer and the armour, OK, that may be making that line too fine, but I think there may be a crit that states target's clothing catches fire.  I'll have to look.

The Faraday cage you mention though, I would only give to AT16 as it is full chain coverage.  I've seen Faraday covering and it is pretty much Super Duper AT16.  But again, that may be making the line between fantasy and reality too thin.  But just to mix things up... I would seriously consider throwing that in just to mess with every one.  Assuming of course, the wearer is not standing in water at the time.   ;D  In fact.... I am going to do just that!  I'm going to find some way to give an electrical resistance bonus to AT16!  Thanks Cory!  I'll also be sure to give you the credit for the idea when my electrical mages can't hurt anyone. lol  ;)

Funny thing to note:  My friend and his brother used to have tazer fights.  They would zap each other with the handheld tazers that ran off the 9-volt batteries.  He said that it hurt more when the tazer went through clothing.  The worst jolt he ever got was through a thick wool sweater.  He said it didn't hurt as much when it was direct skin contact.  I took his word for it.  I was not and still am not about to test that theory out.
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Offline jdale

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Faraday protection has to be complete and grounded to work. E.g. chain, steel gauntlets, but the palms are leather. And a lot of the damage is heat anyway, your layers are not fireproof.

I'm with Cory, too much science detracts from the sense of magic in the game. That knowledge is alien to the medieval mindset, and it prevents immersion in the setting. If you want to have magical armor that protects against lightning and other electrical attacks, that's fine, just treat it as a magic item that gives a DB/RR bonus against them. Don't invoke Faraday.
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Offline Cory Magel

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At the very least though, I would juice everyone standing in the puddle of water! LOL  Come on... it's electricity and water!!!  That just has "FUN" written all over it and it keeps the PCs on their toes.

You are so right, I'd do that particular one too.  Maybe even to the friendly party if they were standing in the same water because, I don't want to be an 'evil' GM, I want to be a 'maniacal laughter that sets you bolt upright sweating in the middle of the night' GM.  :evil1:
- Cory Magel

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(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Warl

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In the case of a Lightning bolt fired into or at a target in the water, I would do the same... except I would treat everyone Not directly targeted as hit by a Stun Cloud but delivering Electrical Criticals of 1 less severity than the target was hit with for every 5 feet away from the target they were.

And Woe unto the foolish Caster who casts while Standing in the same water or casts while under water.
That is one exception i won't make... such a Casting of a Bolt or ball goes off as a Ball of electricity centered on the caster.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Oh I'd reduce the severity of those not directly targeted too.  Probably something similar to what you're thinking.  Maybe a shock bolt instead of a lightning bolt.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Spectre771

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Faraday protection has to be complete and grounded to work. E.g. chain, steel gauntlets, but the palms are leather. And a lot of the damage is heat anyway, your layers are not fireproof.

Or they can be completely ungrounded.  :)  When the High Tension Line Workers using those suits work on the aerials, they are lowered into place by helicopter so they are never allowed to complete a circuit to ground.  They are still fully enmeshed in chain armour... errr.... Faraday suit.  Perhaps a floating/hovering/levitated target may get some DB vs. electrical?  I'm only mentioning this as the OP asked for other interesting combinations and possible ways to handle them. 

I am torn with these posts.  I believe there is a line that has to be kept clear in that this is fantasy world and magic, but I also like to have that fantasy grounded in reality, in this instance.  (OK, no pun intended.  I didn't notice that until I reread my post).  Let me clarify a bit.  This isn't GURPS: Toons, which I loved playing and nearly anything goes.  It's not Shadowrun with all the technomancy and having things in the "future" that we can only dream about today.  It is, as you said, the science of this particular time period in this world.  Whether people knew of Faraday or not, whether they knew the science of heat and mass transfer, the Gravitational Constant of the universe, or the Earth is the center of the universe and the sun revolves around it (which I proved for a final paper in college and got an A! LOL), the fact is that it still exists.

Allow me to explain a bit.   Spiffy the electrical elementalist casts lightning bolt on Frank Araday the archer who is standing on soft squishy earth.  The bolt hits frank, the electricity makes a dazzling light show, dances over the AT 16, and grounds itself into the earth.  Frank is toasty and momentarily blinded, and perhaps let his bladder go in his britches, but otherwise unharmed by the electricity itself.  To Frank's teammates, he is magical and can absorb electricity.  The mage curses the magical AT16 Frank is wearing since he just KNOWS he rolled... errrr... cast a really really good lightning bolt.  Frank knows that he was wearing nothing magical at all and that he did nothing special so he immediately thanks the Gods Above and Below and starts a life long journey of trying to figure out why he wasn't crisped like bacon by that lightning bolt.

The science was there... no one knows it's science..... yet.

Regardless of how wide or fine we keep the line between fantasy and science... electricity and a group of people in a puddle of water HAS to zap everyone!  That's just fun. ;D  I won't go into depth about pure water being a poor conductor of electricity as it's the electrolytes and impurities such as salt that make water really bad to be in when the chaos gods are in a playful mood.


Don't invoke Faraday.

Blasphemer! lol
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Offline Peter R

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The electicity + water combo I would hit everyone else in the water with a shockbolt. The other combos I wouldn't give any special bonus to.
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Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...