Topic: Minimum Required strength For weapons.

[markc]

Can you provide an example with a halfling, human and elf? Using a short sword, long sword and battle ax, of average weight?


Also just thinking about the way stat bonuses work in RM2 I would probably have the penalty mod be x3, if the mod's are in increments of + or - 1.
  My reasoning is that there should be a fairly large penalty for using weapons that are too heavy or too light for you.
MDC

[Warl]

giving them all a base strength of 50 with a 0 bonus so all adjustments come from racial bonuses.
( for rounding purposes I use the Scientific method of rounding to the nearest even number when at .5)
And having an Avergae height/weight based of a 51 for a height and weight roll. and Using My BWA calculation. (I use weight divided by 5 rather than weight divided by 10 and increase this by 1/3rd of the strength bonus+racial Enc bonus, if any, as a percentage increase)

Short sword average weight = 3lbs (by Arms law) min str cat = weak
Broad sword average weight = 4lbs min str cat = weak
Battle Axe average weight = 7lbs min str cat = average
Two handed Sword ave. weight = 9lbs min str cat = hardy
Long Pike/Spear (12' length ) ave weight = 12lbs ( reduce 2 categories used 2 hands) min str cat = Capable
Short spear (8' length ) ave weight = 6lbs ( reduce 2 categories 2hands 1 category 1 handed due to weight distribution and method of use) min str cat = Able/weak (1h/2h)

Common man ( +5str )weight of 175 = BWA of 35.56  round up to 36 gives a strength Cat of "Capable".
Short sword = no penalty, Broad sword = no penalty, Battle axe No penalty, two handed sword = -5 penalty as it is 1 category strength higher, Long Pike melee = -5 as it is still 1 category higher, Short spear 1h = no penalty, short spear 2h = no penalty

High Elf (+0 strength) weight 175lbs = BWA of  35 gives a str cat of "average"
Short sword = no penalty, Broad sword = no penalty, Battle axe = No penalty, two handed sword = -10 penalty as it is 2 categories strength higher, Long Pike melee = no penalty, Short spear 1h = no penalty, short spear 2h = no penalty

Halfing (-20 str ) weight 76lbs = BWA of 14.18 ( rounded to 14) gives a STR Cat of "Very Weak"
Short sword = -5, Broad sword = -5, Battle axe = -15, two handed sword = -25 , long pike melee = -20, Short spear 1h = -10, short spear 2h = -5

As you can see, the  Halfing does come out the worse..... though I would assume if you made a Halfing fighter you would have some bonuses in strength to negate this disadvantage to a small degree. Just a +10 to strength would bump the Halfing Up one category allowing him to use Short sword, broadsword and short spear 2H with no penalty. It would take significant strength and stature (increased height/weight) to get him up another category.

[markc]

Warl,
 Thanks for the #'s and examples they make everything a lot clearer and is very interesting.


 To me it seems that it is too easy to get ride of penalties for 1/2-lings, as you said just one ST step up and they can use ss, bs, ls without any penalties.
  to remind people I am in the realism/balance camp vs fun for 1/2-lings and do not think it should be easy to remove weapon penalties.


MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Since it's the RM2 forum, as a note, the "Arms Companion" has rules to handle that matter (chapter 4.8, p27, "Weapon Use"). It a nutshell, it gives a table where figure the OB penalties, minimum OB penalties, fumble increases and initiative penalties, depending on the weapon's weight as a percentile of the user's weight. The OB penalties are given for using the weapon one-handed or two-handed, and work similarly to armor maneuvers (you can train to lower the penalty, up to the minimum penalty).

[Warl]

Since it's the RM2 forum, as a note, the "Arms Companion" has rules to handle that matter (chapter 4.8, p27, "Weapon Use"). It a nutshell, it gives a table where figure the OB penalties, minimum OB penalties, fumble increases and initiative penalties, depending on the weapon's weight as a percentile of the user's weight. The OB penalties are given for using the weapon one-handed or two-handed, and work similarly to armor maneuvers (you can train to lower the penalty, up to the minimum penalty).

I have seen this before, However, even using the weights as listed in Arms law (which, Btw, are off in many ways when compared to RL versions) the fact that it started off at 10 to 15% made those rules pretty much useless.
Consider the halfling with a Body weight of 76lbs.  10% gives him 7.6 lbs which pretty much lets him use any weapon up to and including a two handed sword with no issues.
Secondly, though I agree with using weight as a base, IT doesn't account for strength of the wielder.

[Warl]

Warl,
 Thanks for the #'s and examples they make everything a lot clearer and is very interesting.


 To me it seems that it is too easy to get ride of penalties for 1/2-lings, as you said just one ST step up and they can use ss, bs, ls without any penalties.
  to remind people I am in the realism/balance camp vs fun for 1/2-lings and do not think it should be easy to remove weapon penalties.


MDC

I do see what your saying... though the problem comes in the weights of the weapons..

Two solutions I have considered..

#1 is using the Penalties from the article Referenced by OLF.
Second is adding a "Fulcrum" modifier.
A Fulcrum Modifier would basically Adjust the Category based on the Length of a Non-Pole arm Type weapon based on it's Length as compared to the wielders height.
= to hieght (+/- a few inches ) = 1 category increase
= x1.5 height = 2 category increase
= x2 height = 3 category increase

and so forth.

the Idea being that the Longer a Weapon is, that is Generally Meant to be held at one end t be wielded, the more difficult it becomes to wield because you,it is not proportioned right.

Polearms/spears tend to be exempt from this as they are not held at one end, but close to the middle thus balancing the weight. ( which is why they have reductions in category) Though a Argument could be made against ths applying to Lucern Hammers and Halberds as they are meant more to be swung than stabbed with and thus thength could be an issue when trying to swing it higher than ones head( i.e. at a mounted enemy or over the heads of a front rank.)

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I have seen this before, However, even using the weights as listed in Arms law (which, Btw, are off in many ways when compared to RL versions) the fact that it started off at 10 to 15% made those rules pretty much useless.

While the percentile given are a bit high, all the concepts (base penalty, minimum penalty, fumble increase, initiative penalty) are IMO interesting.

Secondly, though I agree with using weight as a base, IT doesn't account for strength of the wielder.

It does, since ST is one of the stats used in the skill needed to lower the base penalty, so the stronger a character, the less ranks he needs.