Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: gonther on May 15, 2007, 08:19:58 AM
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I have most of the RM2 books and don't know why I should spend money on the Rolemaster Classic series.
But I like what I have seen so far.
Could someone please convince me to buy them?
Thanks! :)
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in a rush, will give you three reasons. . .if you need any more info, just ask.
1) My books are in ratty condition
2) The RMC books were re-formatted to be easier to read and use.
3) There are new rules and options in these books.
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And the covers are great!
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classic spell law comes with anti-page flipping system
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it's simple, it is a current and supported incarnation of the best RM version of all time, yet it is more polished and clearer to the players and GMs.
If you have RM2, you will need RMC simply to replace your books, if you have and other RPG you need it as it's better than what you have (yes really)
maybe something better will be written one day, but this isn't that day.
(perhaps OTT, but from the heart)
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I doubt if you need them, but if you are playing RM2, why not update to the most recent version?
lynn
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I'm also an old RM2 player, and I got the books for the simple reason that RMC will have new product releases.
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I'd love it if an out of print system I used re-printed the books so I could replace old ones. However, I don't use RM2.
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fun stuff in there for you FRP folk too. . .If I can use your channeling companion for RM2, I'm sure you can find fun bits to use in RMC AL or SL. (We did add a bit of new stuff.)
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Oh we've converted a good number of things over. But, really, in the end it's usually just inspiration material. You typically have all the basic stuff already and a lot of the add-on materials like later professions require reworking for balance going from RM2 to RMSS - of course much of that problem comes from NON-core RM2 stuff. Anyhow, once you start getting into reworking stuff it eventually becomes relatively easy to just start making your own material. Well, I should qualify that... it seems easy to me. But I tend to be fairly good and 'seeing' the bigger picture when tinkering with stuff. It can sometimes be hard for people to know how many other things certain modifications can impact when they're making them. Then there's the problem that things I work up will be balanced for our groups style, which I then have to (usually) tone down a bit for published RM works. Like the Elementalist concept in the first two RMQ's. Ok, nevermind. I'm putting the lid back on that can of worms.
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In no particular order:
-It keeps the doors open at ICE
-The books have new rule options but still retain their second edition feel
-Because Ondovaal will blow up the world if you don't buy them
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-Because Ondovaal will blow up the world if you don't buy them
:D
Finally convinced. I got my print copy. Thanks!
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New Rule options?
Such as what?
That might get me to give them a look depending on how much new material there is and what kind of material it is.
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http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=3229.0
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=2695.0
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=3753.0
Those three list all the options. If you're familiar with RM2 the additions should jump out at you. If you have any questions regarding which are new, post a reply on those threads and I'll give you more info.
On a seperate note, beyond options, there is a lot of expanded explainations and just new core materials added in to all the books which are not broken out in the "Options" listing.
For instance:
the spell notes in SL are a lot larger and more comprehensive;
AL has a completely new combat round system, it is not the RM2 multi phased mechanic, nor is it the RMFRP 3 phase mechanic. (So the "Tactical" chapter of AL is completely new material from start to finish.);
The spell types in SL were modified in core, eliminating the "P"assive spell type, adding the "P"hantasm and illusion spell type, and clarifying the rules on illusions and informational spells with more clearcut mechanical sub systems.
That any help, or just raise more questions?
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That any help, or just raise more questions?
Yes! ;D
I'm curious about the new combat rounds since I didn't care for either one of the old ones. So far none of the stuff from any of the Companions (old or new) is included, correct? Some of that stuff would be nice if it were redone in a more balanced form than the original.
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The combat rounds are activity oriented. We did not quite reach the point of roundless timing, though perhaps Tim may go there with his Combat Companion. It's not CEATs, it's a fairly casual activity sequence. I know Vroomfoogle has been using it in play with no issues, he might be the better person to discuss it.
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I thought RMC was just a "cleaner" version of RM2, and as such it was advertised by ICE. Perhaps it had more "options" labeled as such, but a new combat round is quite a radical thing to assume you just "cleaned up" the old book :-\
So really, I would like a rundown of what exactly you people have changed here. I've gone to those other threads and they are teasers, not a bad policy in my book but not enough to justify me spending my whole month's salary (yep, living in a third-world country means I get that few for a payment) in a complete set of books!
Especially when my old RM2 books are still in use.
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Which bok do you want to discuss? (Easier to do it book by book.)
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Spell lists are they done the original RM2 way spend DP's to have a chance to know an entire list or are they done the optional method of buying a spell out of the list at a time.
HP's & PP's RM2 original method or one of the alternative methods?
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So really, I would like a rundown of what exactly you people have changed here. I've gone to those other threads and they are teasers, not a bad policy in my book but not enough to justify me spending my whole month's salary (yep, living in a third-world country means I get that few for a payment) in a complete set of books!
Character Law
Campaign Law material was removed to be placed into its own book later this year.
Arms Law
Attack Tables -- during this process, we discovered that many tables often had minor changes made to them between each and every printing (and not always the same tables). We selected one printing and went with it, so the attack tables MAY be different than in your existing copy.
Tactical/Initiative System replaced - Instead of the multi-phase system from RM2, there is now a single system that uses activity percentages to determine things (when coupled with a simplified init roll -- 2d10 + mods -- this makes faster characters go first, and the mods are based on d100 scale, so that the 2d10 reflects a bit of luck, but it is not overwhelming).
Spell Law
Spell Types reworked, getting rid of Passive and adding Phantasm/Illusions as a type. Most of the spells that were Passive became either Informational or Utility. Better guidelines/rules were given for resolving Informational spells.
One spell list (Symbolic Ways) had its spells reworked slightly because of order/power level issues.
Other than that, text was cleaned up and/or expanded to make the intention of the rules clearer overall. A lot of options were added to increase compatibility between RMC and RMFRP.
But that is basically it.....
The original intent was to clean things up and expand the text. However, when we hit Arms Law - that phased system was just too horrendous to be allowed to live on, and the decision was made to euthanize it, for its own good....
The same with spell types, there was a lot of confusion because of Passive spells, the intent was to reduce confusion overall by expanding upon intent....
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Spell lists are they done the original RM2 way spend DP's to have a chance to know an entire list or are they done the optional method of buying a spell out of the list at a time.
HP's & PP's RM2 original method or one of the alternative methods?
Spell lists -- the core RM2 method is still core. However, Options were added to allow for other acquisition methods of learning the lists. There is no individual spell development in the sense that you can purchase Fire Bolt without buying the rest of the spell list before that spell.
HPs use the core rules. I don't think that any options were included for it.
Power Points - There are a number of PP options, including a PP Development skill, and the Base PP option which allows a character to start off with about 10 more PP than normal (making level 1 caster a bit more viable).
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CL, the choice was made to unify to 2 stats on all but combat skills, so Perception is In/Re, not In/In/Re. . . .
We added 7 secondary skills, 4 lores, streetwise, lancing, and subduing.
Beyond that, it's lots and lots of new stuff in options, and the old stuff described in a more clearcut, organized manner.
Questions on the options, please ask away, on those three seperate threads if possible.
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oh heck, i guess I'll buy it too!
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Hmm, starting to sound like there is enough stuff in there to interest me. Will have to take a close look at the combat round mechanics to decide if I like it or not, it might be more complex then I want, but has to be an improvement on the way things used to work.
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Feeling like sunwolf here. However, buying it should wait until I can part with the money (we partnered with my group for the HARP stuff, I need to give them a break before I propose another buy ;D)
Even then, just for the cleaned-up thing it might be worth is (byte)size in gold.
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The RMC Lite doc should give you a taste for free, once we get it done.
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Is there a Lite Download coming?
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Yes, eventually. However, it has been slightly delayed because of work on other projects...
The RMC Lite Download will even include a small starter adventure originally authored by Allen Maher (for HARP), and adapted to RMC Lite.
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Awsome.
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I never owned RM2, so this talk of getting a cleaner, more updated version piques my interest. I had the RMSS, but as a young kid we butchered the rules (mainly because we didn't read through them all, hehe).
I think I'm a Harper through and through, but I think buying some PDFs could be in order. ;D
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If any of y'all do end up buying the PDFs or books, give us some feedback once you do.
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Ok, I'll give ye some feedback...
The books look great but there is on thing that's very annoying.
It's hard to find the right tables. You should have included a tables index.
It's like... I want to get the stats for a race. Where did they put it... hmmm
Or the skill costs and so on.
Everything looks great but it can be frustrating when you're looking for something. Eventually everyone will learn where to look so it won't be a problem for very long.
I have all the pdf's (the books havn't arrived yet) and they all share this.
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I do know what you mean, and a choice was made to save space by not indexing the tables twice (There are a LOT of tables in these books, so it would have added another few pages.). OTOH they are indexed in the index, like that table is listed as being on page 46, which it is.
The existance of a functional index at the back (Which none of these books really had before) was deemed sufficiant. There were some that liked the redundancy of a TOC and TOC Tables like in the old book, but instead we added a TOC Options in it's place, and added all tables to the main index.
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I really like the layout of Character Law. To me it is pretty easy to navigate. I know that most of the people here have been playing Rolemaster for a very long time, but I mostly started with HARP. I know that there have been complaints that RMC has too much of a HARP feel to it, but for me and maybe others new to ICE products that could be a good thing. I think the new versions of these books are a good move for ICE. I personally would recommend RMC to any HARP player who is searching for something a bit more in-depth and complex. I am still waiting on the other two books to be shipped, so I can't really give much of an explanation of my feelings about those. ;)
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I like the look and layout of the Rolemaster Classic Character Law PDF. I spread the news about it on my gaming club's forum. (Try to help you guys out a little with some free publicity). ;)
It was neat to see some familiar names in the introduction, I am sure it is cool for those people to see their names in the front of a RPG book. I might get that chance if Barbarians of Lemuria gets a new edition, but I'm not holding my breath, hehe.
Anyway, thanks for reintroducing me to a version of Rolemaster that I think is more towards what I am looking for in a RPG.
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Lord Miller, why not make a free download of either the tables or the index available with proof of purchase?
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PS, just replaced the tires on my car. Not able to purchase the books for a while now...........bummer.....
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Wouldn't be all that hard for someone to create a TOC of Tables. (Any voulenteers?) ::)
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I GUESS I can do that ... when do you want it?
And in what format?
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It's a labor of love, so if you want to do it, get it done when you get it done. . . . .same idea on format.
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This topic discusses why one should move from RM2 to RMC, are those the same reasons one should move from RMFRP to RMC?
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I don't think this thread is a question of moving from RM2 to RMC, it's "Why should I buy RMC if I have RM2". . . .is the material worth purchasing for someone who already has the base materials RMC was drawn from.
I happen to play RM2/C, but own a lot of RMSS/FRP stuff. . .So in the context I stated in the para above, I'd say that I would buy RMC if I played RMSS or FRP, if only to steal bits and pieces.
There is a lot of material here that I think an FRP GM might find interesting and potentially useful. . .Probably more so in AL, SL, CT and less so CL.
**Official Warning**
Anyone who proceeds down the path of a hostile RMFRP vs RMC thing will find their posts clipped off this thread so you can brawl somewhere else.
**End Warning**
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They are two very different games with very similar mechanics and I use them both for different reasons. Like you Lord Miller I steal from one & the other constantly.
I am looking forward to seeing the RMC material. I was flicking through a bunch of the old companions etc to try and find various spell lists etc last weekend, and thought to myself how nice it would be to have a unified & streamlined version of this stuff for my own purposes. And how cool it would be to be able to hand over the books with confidence and say pick your racces & profession to the players.
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For me, I can't really play RM2 anymore. It's too messy and unorganized, too hard to teach someone, and the backstock of printed books was finally reaching a point where it was hard for new players to get them.
RMC is just RM2, in print and supported again, with actual editing and tutorial explanations :o , and a slightly different mix of optional rules.
The new percentage-of-activity initiative system is a sudden and inappropriate change. I *really* wish ICE had left the RM2 initiative sequence in as the primary system. Whether or not it seems "horrendous" to new developers, phased combat was the standard RM system in use for 25 years, it was easy to explain, easy to resolve, and required minimal bookkeeping. I could teach a new player how to fight in a couple minutes. The new system's fine as an optional system; I've mostly used CEATS ever since it came out, and could comfortably replace it with the new initiative system, but it requires considerably more paperwork than phases.
The new Spell Law is excellent. Additional explanations for spell types, well-organized and edited spell lists, and many of the best optional rules from the Companions.
If you're currently happy with RM2, you don't really *need* RMC, because you basically have it already, but overall it is a better edition of RM2 than the old red box set. You may very well want to make copies of your RM2 Arms Law sequence of play, and use that instead of the new system.
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Spell Types reworked, getting rid of Passive and adding Phantasm/Illusions as a type. Most of the spells that were Passive became either Informational or Utility. Better guidelines/rules were given for resolving Informational spells.
It would seem that Spell Law had the most mechanical revisions. (I don't count initiative as there are as many versions of that as there are spells.) There was also a lengthy thread regarding spell traces. (Which I found I think in the RMSS Arcane Companion with a spell that allows you to detect all spells ever cast in an area.) Any chance some type of addendum/option pack would be produced separate from the main books? The Spell Law changes sound intriguing and I feel would be useful in case a discussion similar to the one in the forums crops up. As death's tale will soon be in my mythic's repitoire.
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Were there ever plans of doing a "what's new" or "RM Update" document to bring us old RM2 people up to date with the changes. I think, if 98% of RMC is ol'good RM2, and now RMC is official (and more, since you're marketing it as "cleaned-up RM2"); how do I know if future releases (like Combat Companion) that I might consider buying are assuming divergences(*) to my old books?
Unless of course the policy is to have everybody buy the new books in order to take advantage of new releases (like in being forced to)(**).
(*)Like: stuff that asumes my initiative system is the new one I know nothing about, or makes reference to Utility spells...
(**)This in no terms is a complain against the great company ICE nor the nice creative bunch you people are. I just find it... odd that:
Rolemaster Classic (RMC for short) is a revitalized version of the revered Rolemaster 2 system found in the hallowed ?red border edition? of Rolemaster in the late 80?s.
Rolemaster pioneered many of today?s gaming concepts and still sets the platinum standard for fantasy RPG systems. ICE has taken this great system and re-organized it for clean and easy use. A more polished appearance and new artwork give the books a more open and modern look that's pleasing to the eye.
...does not tell of the "small" mechanical changes :-\
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Now, who am I kidding, I'll probably buy it anyway (hopefully with player's money bwahahahahaha!!!) :laugh1:
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Two main points here....
1) It needs to be recognized that you most likely consider certain options (that were NOT clearly marked in the RM2 core books) to be part of the core, not really an option. Many folks also consider some things like the large list of skills from RoCoII to be part of the core even when they were not.
This means that when you look at RMC, you will likely find things that are different from what you remember or think them to be. This alone is going to be enough of a shock to some people. ;D
2) I follow a policy of, and stress to others, to "write to the core". This means that ICE cannot predict which set of options, if any a given GM will be using. Therefore, all new options must be written to work with the core rules first and foremost. If an option REQUIRES that a certain other option is needed, that is fine, but the option will specifically and explicitly state that it is written to work with/for Option XX, and should not be used if that option is not being used.
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Oh, sorry, following the thread I was under the impression that the new initiative system and the re-classification of spells were core, not optional. My mistake then.
Core for me is: found in the main red-bordered books and not listed under "optional" in them. Or their equivalent in RMC (edition we here refer as the "great covers' one". Kuddos on the cover art.)
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The "Core" is what not flagged as optional in the RMC edition. There are very few areas where this diverges from the true "core" of RM2 - the spell types and initiative system are the two principal changes to the core.
All subsequent publications will be based on the RMC Core, and play balance will be an important consideration for all options introduced.
There is a vast amount of optional material in the red-covered books. You should note that the same option will be clearly marked as "optional" on one page, but is then assumed to be core on another. this is the reason we had to clarify exactly what constituted what is core for RM2/RMC - the original RM2 books did not make a clear distinction !
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And to regards of my question: was there ever considered compiling a document with changes, what is considered core, etc, from RM2 to RMC?
Is there any hope of something like that?
Cory, if "core" is what is not optional in RMC, and we go by RM2, how do we know what is officially core now? Tim, I respect "designing to the core rules", but now I'm confused about what is core and what is not :(
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And to regards of my question: was there ever considered compiling a document with changes, what is considered core, etc, from RM2 to RMC?
Is there any hope of something like that?
Cory, if "core" is what is not optional in RMC, and we go by RM2, how do we know what is officially core now? Tim, I respect "designing to the core rules", but now I'm confused about what is core and what is not :(
Not from me, there isn't and I am the principle person at ICE who might be even remotely interested in doing so (let alone finding the large amounts of time required to do such). However, let me point out that the list I gave up above is pretty much most all that has really changed from the original core rules.
As for knowing what is and isn't core. In RMC we have marked ALL options as being options. This was not the case in RM2, and this caused TONS of confusion over the years. And each book specifically carries a section of TOC just for the options. And the index contains an Options entry with all the options listed beneath it.
In short, ALL of the options in RMC are clearly and explicitly marked. There is no confusion about what is or is not an option.
What I was trying to say in my last post was that RM2 did not explicitly and clearly mark options, and it is quite possible that something you thought was core actually turned out to be an option.
As for "go by RM2", I would suggest getting RMC instead. It is much cleaner and clearer. Plus it includes NEW options that you may find appealing..... ;D
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"I go by RM2" means I have RM2 and, for now, won't be getting RMC. Then I have no idea what is officially now "core".
If I had bought RMC, of course, there would be no argument :D
Perhaps making the TOCs available for us here at the forums, so that we can see what you labelled as "optional"? Pretty please? ::)
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Find the thread/poll about the Character Law options!! That will tell you what is optional, and from that you can figure out what is core...
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I beg your pardon, I should stop being such a lazy a$$ (hey, even my avatar asks forgiveness! ;D)
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;D
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heh, check out the three option polls. . . .looking at those should make the option variations fairly obvious. . .and those are also the places to ask specific questions. It's a lot easier to get into the variations with a more specific "In Character Law. . ." or "In Spell Law. . ." reduction in the scope of the topic.
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You could also check out the three "Non staff" review threads posted on the product reviews board over here:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?board=65.0
Those who have purchased the books who have not already reviewed them can post reviews over there, giving more "Non official" information to those who want it. (Hint-hint, nudge-nudge) It would be much appreciated.
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I'm curious... my big hang up at this moment is that I have all of the RM2 stuff... well I think i have it all ;D ...so I'm curious as I'm about 99% sure (yet to make my Re roll) I'm gonna make the jump, but have a couple of questions first.
Let me try to pose my first question like this....
Knowing that RoCo1 and 2 are not 'supported' by ICE and probably wont be printed again in any form... my interest is in being able to use the professions and skills list. Are they still applicable? By that I mean, can I intergrate them with RMC? I'm not concerned with the optional rules, just the skills and professions... crap, having a brain fart now and cant remember what if any crit tables there might be. damn... anyways, I'd probably use those to. Can those be easily be intergrated into RMC?
On to the topic of character development... pretty much the same as my beloved RM2 Right?
Can you point me to the link, please, for when additional titles will be released?
Hope I'm not driving anyone bonkers... I had/have serious issues with the BS of sucking up and getting (gag) 3rd ed. D&D only to have to get the (bleep)ing (blank)ing (censored) 3.5 books not even 6 months later. I was ready to filet someone's testicals over that.
RM2 is... I dunno how to put it without sounding sappy... I love RM2, d20 be damned, and am a bit concered about being let down again.
to the RMC team... from the reviews I read today I have a feeling I'll be pleased, but paranoia has kept me alive this long... along with a pretty high perception... ;)
Thanks again for the time,
Allen
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If you have the RM companions, I can't think of anything in any of them that will be directly unusable due to the rules in RMC other than the various versions of the combat round. Those were always plug in plug out anyway. (Like you couldn't use the Core RM2 round and CEATS at the same time either.)
Working on RoCo1 with Nick and Cormac, we have found very little in there that needed anything at all in the way of changing for RMC compatability.
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SOLD to the man with the shiney piece of plastic! PDF's to be downloaded shortly.
LM, thanks again.
I'll post reviews after the weekend. Making a road trip with a long time d20 gamer who has no experience with RM. I'll be spending half my time reading and so will he. I'll include his comments, will try and get him to post the same.
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Just be aware that over the course of the companions there is a gradual, but definite power creep, and you need to be aware of that so that if it causes issues with your use of the RMC core rules, you know why.
However, having said that, you should have absolutely no problems integrating those products with RMC.
2 specific points though....
1) Power Point Development is a skill that changes the focus of the game in a large manner, making spel users much more powerful....
2) In RMC, there are some options for giving additional DPs to players when you add more skills. I would recommend being VERY careful how many skills you add. One suggestion that is not in the RMC book would be to add 1 DP for every 2 skills added (up to 25% of their normal amount of DPs) - there is also an Option for static (non-stat based) DPs each level, and more...
As I have said before, just be aware of what you are adding, option-wise, as the options you select can have a great impact upon the system.
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I concur big time with the above on options.
On PPD. . .it offers Pure spell users a potential doubling in power for a moderate cost in DP.
For Semis and Pures it's a spanking, they get a mid to high cost skill that gives them what they would have gotten for free without the option active.
I find that with PPD active, semis get pushed very close to the edge of the cliff in terms of having not enough DP to cover their needs.. . .your nons tend to develop fewer if any spells, and the pures flourish. (It leads to a higher overall magic, but more black and white world of pure arms/pure casters with less crossing over the thematic lines.)
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Good thread :)
It have really cleared up a lot of the questions I had about RMC.
I use RM2 and most of the companions, but I will buy RMC and since I'm starting a new game with a new group (who have never played RM before) I will recommend the players to buy it too.
Last time I started players new to RM, I spend an awfull lot of time on Ebay trying to find the books that they needed, without going broke. ;D
I might not use all of it (The new round activety system ect), but at least my players can buy the books without problems.
As I told one of the new players the other day:
You know that a system is really, REALLY good, when you can make a few changes without changing the core of the system and then reprint it again 20 years later! :)
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I use RM2 as well, but I bought all the RMC books so far to see what they cleared up and get rid of all the flipping back and forth in RM2 Spell Law ;)
Maybe I will do a full on conversion, but not sure yet. From what I have read in the books so far, it isnt as cryptic anymore as it used to be, so that is a major improvement. Anyways I will properly continue to buy everything they release in this line to support the existance of RM and ICE
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Ok fellow RM2 groupies... (let's face it, RM2 is THE Rock Star of FRPG universe ;D)
got the PDF's yesterday after being extremely paranoid that I was gonna be let down.
Now less than 24 hours later I am quite please with RMC.
I'm not ready to give a full review, which goes in another thread, but I give it 2 thumbs up as it delivers a massive spinning back fist to the 'other' systems... scoring a 66 (of course) on the E Crit Krush table. (ya gotta look it up!)
(edited)
eh hrmm...
as I was saying, kudos to the RMC team. ya'll made done good.
Allen
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<blush>
Thanks.
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suck it d20! muhahahahahah
Just a friendly warning since you are new here. You will want to read the Rules of Conduct to your left.
One of the things that I personally interpret from it is that here on the ICE forums we do not allow the bashing/insulting/etc of others, and that includes other games, systems, companies, etc...
If you dislike d20, you may say so, and you may explain why if you so like. What you may not do is post things along the lines of the quoted bit above.
Please keep this in mind in the future...
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Appologies all around, last thing I want is to create problems for ICE so...
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Appologies all around, last thing I want is to create problems for ICE so...
no problems, that is why the gentle warning.....
I do take length of time on these forums into account...
And it was a completely unofficial warning as well.
If it were official, it would have been inbetween the following:
Official Moderation
End Official Moderation
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And the covers are great!
What's wrong with the Angus McBride overs? (god rest his soul)
-shnar
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Tactical/Initiative System replaced - Instead of the multi-phase system from RM2, there is now a single system that uses activity percentages to determine things (when coupled with a simplified init roll -- 2d10 + mods -- this makes faster characters go first, and the mods are based on d100 scale, so that the 2d10 reflects a bit of luck, but it is not overwhelming).
I have to admit, the init system of AL always felt clunky and we ended up never using it, rather opting for the simplier/quicker MERP way of handling it (whomever had the higher MM went first, unless of course a previous Crit caused person to lose init).
I'm curious to see how this AL works now.
-shnar
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Did you purchase it?