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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Tywyll on March 22, 2017, 01:40:33 PM

Title: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 22, 2017, 01:40:33 PM
How does this work in RM? I can't seem to locate rules for it, especially when you use a phased combat system (magic, then Missile, then movement, then melee) like in RM2, spacemaster, and MERP.

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Majyk on March 22, 2017, 05:47:27 PM
I implemented a kind of MM roll modified by AG Bonus on the Hard column.
Whatever % number was listed would allow that chance for leaving combat without being attacked for free by an opponent.

This same % number listed would also establish how far away one could get during such an escape, taking it from x1 BMR of the character in question.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 22, 2017, 05:54:05 PM
I think you'll find lots of people use houserules for this Tywyll. Personally I think this is because RM has never done a very good job of making its own for this issue and other systems do it better.

I use a houserule which basically applies the Dungeons and Dragons version of a free (or 'Instantaneous' action when I play RMU) opportunity attack if a combatant tries to leave combat without carefully withdrawing.

I've been using houserules for this for so long that I can't even remember if Rolemaster ever had any of its own. I am inclined to think RM2 did not, but I can't say for certain.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 23, 2017, 03:47:52 AM
Okay cool. It's kinda mind boggling that this isn't something that is addressed in such a deadly system!

So how does that work? Do they get full ob? Does the runner get any parry?

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 23, 2017, 11:03:13 AM
Okay cool. It's kinda mind boggling that this isn't something that is addressed in such a deadly system!

It wasn't I think as necessary when Rolemaster used the phased combat system. Movement conflicts could be handled with opposed checks and that sort of thing, in a more 'theatre of the mind' style of combat. The downside was that this slowed down combat because you were constantly rolling to resolve basic movement issues (you couldn't walk and chew gum without rolling a skill check), and of course the phased system had lots of other problems (which was why many people developed their own action/initiative systems).

Quote
So how does that work? Do they get full ob? Does the runner get any parry?


Are you asking about RM2 or RMU?

In RMU, we have experimented with a couple of things, but right now prefer to make it much like the Dungeons and Dragons system. If you move away from an opponent without doing a withdraw action (1 AP), you provoke an opportunity attack. This attack follows the rules for instantaneous actions: it costs 0 for the first one in a round, and 1 AP each time after that. The attack is a 1 AP melee attack, so it is at -75, but since the opponent is considered 'flatfooted', most of that minus is cancelled out by the +60 flatfooted bonus. So the attack is at -15 in total.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 23, 2017, 11:07:04 AM
Interesting. How would you handle it in RMC?

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 23, 2017, 11:10:59 AM
Interesting. How would you handle it in RMC?

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In RM2, we just made the opportunity attack a full OB attack (as in DnD).
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 23, 2017, 11:11:24 AM
And the victim got no parry?

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 23, 2017, 12:35:54 PM
And the victim got no parry?


We do allow the victim to parry.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 23, 2017, 12:52:46 PM
And the victim got no parry?


We do allow the victim to parry.
Okay, so if you attempt to withdraw in the movement phase, the opponent gets a free attack at full ob plus rear bonus (?) but you get to full parry. After that, can the person follow you in movement phase or attack someone else in melee?

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 23, 2017, 02:53:27 PM

Okay, so if you attempt to withdraw in the movement phase, the opponent gets a free attack at full ob plus rear bonus (?) but you get to full parry. After that, can the person follow you in movement phase or attack someone else in melee?

The free attack was at full OB, but did not get the rear bonus. The mover did get to declare parry. The person who attacked you for moving without caution would be allowed to act normally after that, including moving and attacking. Any further attacks though would be penalized for movement, according to the normal rules for moving and attacking.

Remember that in RM2 (and I am assuming RMC, though I never played it), a round is 10 seconds long, and combat is abstracted. In reality, you can make many more swings than 1 in 10 seconds; a quick swing will take less than 1 second. The free opportunity then represents this sort of quick swing, which is normally not very effective, but becomes much more effective if the opponent is not en garde.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Malim on March 23, 2017, 04:51:26 PM
We play RM2 and have 2 options so to speak!
We have "flee" result is free attack: Can move full normal move, cant parry. Foe gets +20 rear bonus.
We have withdraw: move 50%, can only parry.
Tumbling evasion: We use this skill not as described in RoC2 but this way: Roll on movement table difficulty is dependend on how many foes you have, 100% then you can roll out of combat in movement phase with 100% baserate.
If the foe is pinned by other player then he cant follow without opening him self to a free attack, if he is not pinned he can follow on his own baserate!
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Merkir on March 23, 2017, 05:26:20 PM
Just dug out our "House Rule #8". Had to chuckle, as it's quite complex... overly so.

House Rule AL8: "Disengage from Melee" Action is a Movement & Maneuver (MM) roll by each combatant, as follows:
   1. The Disengaging combatant (Defender) rolls on the Movement & Maneuver table (GM to assign difficulty)
   2. Add the Defender’s normal MM bonus + MeleeOB ÷ 5.
   3. Result is the % of the maximum disengage distance (10'), rounded down to 0', 5' or 10'. Ie:
          0-49  =  0' (failed to disengage)
         51-99  =  5' (and may have disengaged - see below)
          100+  = 10' (and may have disengaged - see below)
   4. The Attacker makes an identical roll to see if he is able to counter the disengage action. If the Attacker's result is equal to or greater than the Defender's result, the defender FAILS his disengagement attempt.



I note that these rules allow melee to flow (movement-wise) as combatants jockey for position, so it has good flavour at least. If you attempt to disengage and fail, you might still be able to move 5-10' regardless, thus gaining a positional advantage perhaps.

These days I much prefer the D&D Opportunity Attack rules instead, as mentioned by others.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 23, 2017, 05:29:55 PM
It does make Tumbling useful. I also considered allowing a feint, an opposed check for 1 AP that might succeed (but might fail). I haven't tried implementing that one yet, though, and it could slow down the combat by introducing more rolls.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Malim on March 23, 2017, 06:15:00 PM
We also tumbling attack in another way.
Its basically same deal just for attacks and then the tumbler don't loose initiative for moving into combat!
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Gauds00 on March 24, 2017, 02:40:20 AM
I find the thing to consider  is movement, a fast opponent might actually be able to turn and run in the snap action (first 20% of the round) and out distance their attacker. For example I play a wyvern can swoop down attack a surprised group and get 300 ft away by the end of the surprised groups snap action faze, almost completely denying an opportunity to attack 

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Malim on March 24, 2017, 04:27:42 AM
Isn't that the idea for some monsters, blitz attacks!
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Jengada on March 24, 2017, 11:44:51 AM
I don't remember ever having to deal with this question in my older campaigns. But with a new start, and a group of players familiar with Pathfinder, I suspect it'll come up. I like the basic attack of opportunity idea, with either tumbling or feint allowing some escape from a melee situation. Either is an additional roll, but I doubt they'll come up that often.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 24, 2017, 07:17:43 PM
It does make Tumbling useful. I also considered allowing a feint, an opposed check for 1 AP that might succeed (but might fail). I haven't tried implementing that one yet, though, and it could slow down the combat by introducing more rolls.

What would oppose it?
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 24, 2017, 09:01:40 PM
It does make Tumbling useful. I also considered allowing a feint, an opposed check for 1 AP that might succeed (but might fail). I haven't tried implementing that one yet, though, and it could slow down the combat by introducing more rolls.

What would oppose it?

I was thinking of the opponent's weapon skill for whatever weapon the opponent had out.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Tywyll on March 25, 2017, 04:57:24 AM
It does make Tumbling useful. I also considered allowing a feint, an opposed check for 1 AP that might succeed (but might fail). I haven't tried implementing that one yet, though, and it could slow down the combat by introducing more rolls.

What would oppose it?

I was thinking of the opponent's weapon skill for whatever weapon the opponent had out.
Okay that makes sense. High roll wins?

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Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Hurin on March 25, 2017, 10:39:44 AM

Okay that makes sense. High roll wins?


Yes. If mover wins, the defender does not get an opportunity to attack. If defender wins, he gets the opportunity attack.
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Malim on March 25, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
ROLEmaster.... And the the defender can roll again and win a teddybear :D
Title: Re: Withdrawing from melee
Post by: Gauds00 on April 05, 2017, 07:47:48 PM
I think is is important to play to the tempo of the game. If it is a large complex battle for example lots of goblins and one flees i have no problem with the pc sucker punching  a gobo with maximum bonuses, just for the sake of speeding up the game, if the foe is fleeing hes already defeated. So everyone is happy. But if the foe is a combat hardened or experienced fighter, i would typically have them tactically withdraw. Snap action parry or attack at -20 while retreating backwards at jog x3 pace no additional bonuses to attack with, this also increases the survivability of the pcs if required. And makes following a retreating foe a potentially dangerous situation, if the EXP hungery PC is prepared to move out of position endangering the rest of the party for personal advantage...   

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