Topic: Reloading times (ranged attacks)

[Mauro]

Hi everybody,

I was wondering... why are loading times for ranged weapons that big? I mean, 2 rounds just to load a bow or a sling... doesn't that make ranged weapons a bit useless?
I remember Rolemaster ranged weapons needing only one round to load, and there was this option to "reload", allowing to shoot every turn with a penalty. Is there anyting similar in HARP?
I just started a campaign with some friends (my very first time as a HARP GM, and my first time as a GM in a looong time), and nobody has used a bow yet, but the rules intrigue me.

Also, as a side question, how do you set up encounters? Looking at the creature tables, lvl 2 enemies (or even lvl 1) are more powerful than all the characters. Last time I had a cleric (paladin like) and a warrior mage with a dog fighting a giant beetle, and they almost got killed (3 lvl 1 vs 1 lvl 2 seemed fair enough for me, but now it does not).

Thanks in advance!

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I was wondering... why are loading times for ranged weapons that big? I mean, 2 rounds just to load a bow or a sling... doesn't that make ranged weapons a bit useless?

Two rounds is only four seconds. With the Speed Loader talent, that means that you can grab an arrow and nock your bow in two seconds, and can fire one arrow every other round-- every four seconds. Nothing human can do that.

Not to mention, compare a bow to a spell like Elemental Bolt. You can fire an Elemental Bolt every round, but it only does a Tiny critical; you can scale up to a Small at a -10 penalty, but then you can only fire it every other round, unless you take another -10 penalty. The Longbow does Medium critical, has an attack bonus at less than forty feet, and doesn't consume extra ammo when fired at long distances.

Biggest advantage of either spells or projectile weapons is not having to be up close to hit; they allow you to strike your enemies with impunity. Considering how ugly melee gets in HARP, this is a considerable advantage that more than makes up for a slower attack rate. Only reason I don't play Archers is the fact I always play Gish of some kind or another-- almost all of my characters have some kind of ranged attack spell.

Also, as a side question, how do you set up encounters? Looking at the creature tables, lvl 2 enemies (or even lvl 1) are more powerful than all the characters. Last time I had a cleric (paladin like) and a warrior mage with a dog fighting a giant beetle, and they almost got killed (3 lvl 1 vs 1 lvl 2 seemed fair enough for me, but now it does not).

If you're new to HARP, chances are your players are new to HARP as well. How much were they parrying, and were they using team tactics to keep the beetle attacking the toughest character, or the character who was parrying the most?

Part of the problem is, I'm willing to guess that neither the Cleric nor the Warrior Mage was wearing armor.

If you're not wearing armor and you're not parrying effectively, melee is much more difficult than if you play the classic tactic of having heavily armored characters taking the brunt of the attacks with the others taking potshots from positions of relative safety.

[Mormegil]

My experience is that bows don't work 90% of the time.

Sure you get a bonus for shooting at point blank but they'll be on you next round and you won't have a melee weapon drawn. And if there was any cover for their approach (trees, etc) then you probably didn't hit them.

Maybe my GM is unusually harsh but I don't remember bows in RM being this bad.

[Uriel]

I was wondering... why are loading times for ranged weapons that big? I mean, 2 rounds just to load a bow or a sling... doesn't that make ranged weapons a bit useless?

Two rounds is only four seconds. With the Speed Loader talent, that means that you can grab an arrow and nock your bow in two seconds, and can fire one arrow every other round-- every four seconds. Nothing human can do that.

While I agree with all of your points regarding the benefits of ranged attacks, an arrow every 4 seconds isn't that hard from someone who has been shooting for a bit. Friends and I used to shoot (I still am an archer, if it matters) for speed and fun (And to see how realistic D&D RoF was), and 4 shots in a 10 second round was pretty standard for one guy. No, these aren't 100# English Longbows we were shooting (My current strongest is a #45 recurve), but neither are we 'Fiddler-Crabbed Longbowman' who train for 6 hours a day.

One of the players in my current HARP game whines about his RoF with a crossbow. I asked him to show me that he can load and 'fire (Safety is on) my 150# Panzer II (Ha, I've had it since 1987...Man, I'm old), and he didn't do very well. He doesn't whine anymore...


-Uriel

[Ecthelion]

I was wondering... why are loading times for ranged weapons that big? I mean, 2 rounds just to load a bow or a sling... doesn't that make ranged weapons a bit useless?

From my experience ranged weapons are quite powerful because there is (almost) no way of parrying the missiles. So if you have e.g. a 3rd level Fighter with ~80 OB with his bow (as primary weapon) he will surely hit any orc or goblin or so and do a critical hit unless he does a fumble. The downside is that, without Speedloader Talent or similar means, the archer will only be able to fire a missile once every three rounds. OTOH with a longbow you can start firing at <320' with only a -30 to OB. Even if the opponents are sprinting towards the archer that leaves ~10 rnds until the opponents reach him which then equals 3 free shots, 5 with the Speedloader Talent.

But I agree that, if the GM never gives the opportunity to fire at the opponents at a high range and instead they usually appear when already being quite close to the characters, character using missile weapons are much less effective. Without a shield and not being able to parry archers are at risk should one of the opponents get into melee range. Additionally the opponents will then often have cover from the front-line characters which significantly lowers the chance to hit. Therefore it is usually a good idea to also learn using a melee weapon for such situations.

I remember Rolemaster ranged weapons needing only one round to load, and there was this option to "reload", allowing to shoot every turn with a penalty. Is there anyting similar in HARP?

The only way to shoot missiles every round is the Reload Weapon spell from College of Magics. But that is only available to Warrior Mages.

Also, as a side question, how do you set up encounters? Looking at the creature tables, lvl 2 enemies (or even lvl 1) are more powerful than all the characters. Last time I had a cleric (paladin like) and a warrior mage with a dog fighting a giant beetle, and they almost got killed (3 lvl 1 vs 1 lvl 2 seemed fair enough for me, but now it does not).

I usually take a look at the OB+DB values of the characters and try to generate encounters with opponents that have a bit lower OB+DB values or that have similar values but are less in numbers than the group. This worked quite well. If the players are unexperienced you probably have to reduce the deadliness of the opponents even more.

[Ecthelion]

My experience is that bows don't work 90% of the time.

Sure you get a bonus for shooting at point blank but they'll be on you next round and you won't have a melee weapon drawn. And if there was any cover for their approach (trees, etc) then you probably didn't hit them.

As said in my pervious posting, if the GM usually lets the players detect the opponents only when these are already quite close to the group or allows them cover for their advance, then characters using missile weapons are at a disadvantage. With such a GM I would suggest to always develop a melee weapon as primary weapon and have missile weapons only as secondary weapons that are used in those rare cases when you have a few free shots at the opponents.

Maybe my GM is unusually harsh but I don't remember bows in RM being this bad.

In RM bows had the same disadvantages if the targets are already close or have cover. One major difference is that in RM you could fire a bow every round (but at -10 to -30) while HARP normally allows only a shot every other round, using the Speedloader Talent, which is a must-have for archers. OTOH in RM characters could easily parry missile fire if they had a shield and in HARP this is almost not possible which makes missile so much deadlier. So I assume it's rather the new (?) GM for HARP that makes the difference in your case.

[Mormegil]

So I assume it's rather the new (?) GM for HARP that makes the difference in your case.

Nah - just mean

[Mauro]

So, ranged weapons can be quite deadly if you have the correct distance and the enemy can't parry your shots.
Anyway, all the players I play with have melee characters (yes they are new, and they prefer to kill and then to think) so I guess I won't have to deal with bows for a while.

About the encounter stuff, should I tell my players about some tactics they could use, or should I let them learn the hard way? I told them to parry, but they are not getting it... maybe I should be a little less forgiving.

Also, do you make your players read the combat and adventuring chapters of the book? Or do you teach them everything?

Thanks again.

P.S: Rasimyr, the cleric was wearing leather armor and the warrior mage forgot to cast steel skin.

[Duskwalker]

About the encounter stuff, should I tell my players about some tactics they could use, or should I let them learn the hard way? I told them to parry, but they are not getting it... maybe I should be a little less forgiving.

Every fighter or combat-experienced character should know about tactics, so it might not hurt to give them at least some information how to approach certain situations before the game. If one of your players needs in-game info or wants to play a master tactician have him learn the lore skill.
Combat is dangerous! If your players won't parry teach them the hard way!

Also, do you make your players read the combat and adventuring chapters of the book? Or do you teach them everything?

I generally allow my players to read all non campaign information, especially about combat and magic rules as well as adventuring. It makes my life a whole lot easier not having to explain fundamentals or game mechanics. However, I find myself in the great situation to have very good and cooperative players who can easily distinguish between player and character knowledge.

Considering ranged weapons, I think they are pretty well balanced in HARP. If used at a proper distance they can bring death even to the mightiest warrior, especially as I consider one shot every four seconds (or six, should your average archer not have the speed loader talent, for whatever reason...) pretty fast for an aimed shot.
Once close to an opponent better consider using a melee weapon. Bows simply are not made for close combat!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The only way to really show them the importance of parrying is to put them up against a weaker foe, who will and does parry!! And watch them not get hit (and be sure let them know that he is parrying - i.e. "Okay, you got a 73 on your roll and your OB is 47 for a total of 120, minus his DB of 75 (Soft Leather, Shield, and Qu), and minus another 50 because he is doing a full parry, means that you did no damage")

Also, when choosing monsters to throw against the party, remember that all of the Monsters are the equivalent of Fighters of the proper level. If your players are a Cleric and a Warrior Mage, of course their combat skills are going to be much worse than a monster of the same level, let alone one of a level higher....

[Mauro]

Excellent, I'll try that. Thanks a lot!

[choc]

From my experience ranged weapons are quite powerful because there is (almost) no way of parrying the missiles. So if you have e.g. a 3rd level Fighter with ~80 OB with his bow (as primary weapon) he will surely hit any orc or goblin or so and do a critical hit unless he does a fumble.

bow against mage/warrior mage -> deflection -> miss
bow against shield -> full parry -> graze
bow against non-shield -> 1/5 OB parry -> little bleedin'
the only way to do a big hit is to snipe them

archer in melee - almost dead, except he can use a buckler

IMHO RM has quickshot, sureshot, trickshot ....

but if you're a very rich HARP archer you can use magical customized arrows

[Ecthelion]

From my experience ranged weapons are quite powerful because there is (almost) no way of parrying the missiles. So if you have e.g. a 3rd level Fighter with ~80 OB with his bow (as primary weapon) he will surely hit any orc or goblin or so and do a critical hit unless he does a fumble.

bow against mage/warrior mage -> deflection -> miss

I have a Warrior Mage character myself and Deflection is not on the list of planned spells he is going to learn during the next levels. Additionally Mages and Warrior Mages are - from my experience - usually a minority of the characters. That makes it quite unlikely that Deflections is a key argument why archers should be bad to use.

bow against shield -> full parry -> graze

That is an intersting point. For RM I am sure such a rule exists, that you can actively parry missile attacks using a shield and not only add the shield DB. But our new HARP GM told us that this rule does not exist in HARP - and indeed I could not find such a rule. Can you give me a pointer or did you perhaps only keep using this rule from your perhaps earlier RM experience. Because this is the most important question: Can characters in HARP normally parry missile attacks? The "Parry" Combat Action in the HARP core book explicitly makes the restriction that "melee" attacks may be parried. So what other Combat Action exists that allows missile attacks to be parried?

bow against non-shield -> 1/5 OB parry -> little bleedin'

Yes, there is a Martial Law (ML) rule for this but only if a character has at least 20 ranks in his main weapon he may parry missiles and only at a rate of 1:5. This will certainly be important at later levels for our characters. For the time being there opponents are such low level that they don't fulfil the 20 ranks requirement. With this requirement and the low ratio this will certainly also not be a key argument against HARP archers.

[Mauro]

I think it's 20 ranks or fraction to parry a missile.
01-20 : 1 shot
21-30 : 2 shots

For the bow against shield part, neither I could find a rule about active parrying, but I don't see any problem with a character using his full armor and quickness DB to block/dodge a missile.

[Uriel]

but if you're a very rich HARP archer you can use magical customized arrows

Or hire a bodyguard or three....with big honkin' shields...

[jurasketu]

I always allow characters aware of missile attacks to use shields as cover up to 100% depending on the size of the shield by cowering under the shield. Obviously, the character can't do much other than cower but otherwise very legit.

but if you're a very rich HARP archer you can use magical customized arrows

Absolutely. And a Warrior Mage can even cast Hammerstrike on individual arrows... Arrows with Elemental Bolt, Elemental Ball, etc can really ruin the bad guys day...

The effectiveness of archery does depend on the Combat System being employed... Hack N Slash benefits archers a lot because the damage isn't capped the same way. High level archers with say 30 ranks (+80), ST/AG +15, professional bonuses (+20), Quality Bow (+20) has a OB 135. That can one-shot kill most opponents at close range - even mighty and heavily armored ones. Of course, better have a bodyguard or never miss. That being said - I prefer archery as a complimentary skill. The true warrior can fight effectively using the bow, spear, sword and use all of them off horseback. Firing into melee is dumb - but fluttering a shaft into the other side's not-so-well-armored wizard is certainly useful.

In outdoor and certain urban type encounters, archers can be highly effective especially from horseback or with Long Door. And certainly, an ambush by 20 zombies armed with crossbows is particularly annoying (and deadly). That is where those Rings of Mass Deflections are particularly valuable...

[Ecthelion]

For the bow against shield part, neither I could find a rule about active parrying, but I don't see any problem with a character using his full armor and quickness DB to block/dodge a missile.

Of course not, but that is of little use and only means that e.g. a common orc, which is 6th level in HARP, with his 80 DB from armor, quickness and shield, is still an easy mark for my above example 3rd level archer with 80 OB. Up to 80' with a longbow a critical is guaranteed against such a target and the archer has a good chance of hurting this opponent at even higher range, especially if he can do a first shot while the orc is unaware of him and does not employ his shield. And that is an example where the opponent is of higher level. If the GM usually throws opponents at the group which are of about the same level then it usually becomes even easier to hit the mark.

So, modifying choc's above text, I would say it looks like this:
bow against mage/warrior mage -> deflection -> miss ... but very seldom happens
bow against shield -> armor, shield and DB count -> critical
bow against non-shield -> armor and DB count -> critical
bow against high level opponent -> missile parry -> lower critical

And that IMO is quite deadly. So I say if the archer has a chance to fire a few arrows from a distance and the opponents have little chance to close the distance using cover, then an archer is quite deadly in HARP.

[choc]

bow against shield -> full parry -> graze

That is an intersting point. For RM I am sure such a rule exists, that you can actively parry missile attacks using a shield and not only add the shield DB. But our new HARP GM told us that this rule does not exist in HARP - and indeed I could not find such a rule. Can you give me a pointer or did you perhaps only keep using this rule from your perhaps earlier RM experience. Because this is the most important question: Can characters in HARP normally parry missile attacks? The "Parry" Combat Action in the HARP core book explicitly makes the restriction that "melee" attacks may be parried. So what other Combat Action exists that allows missile attacks to be parried?

Soz, mistake. ML p27 "Shield Parry: A character ... by moving the shield to deflect attacks... 2x DB bonus from the shield ... others call it survival."

but if you're a very rich HARP archer you can use magical customized arrows

Absolutely. And a Warrior Mage can even cast Hammerstrike on individual arrows... Arrows with Elemental Bolt, Elemental Ball, etc can really ruin the bad guys day...

I think elemental weapon is a melee spell. But there's an elemental missile spell somewhere too.

[Ecthelion]

Soz, mistake. ML p27 "Shield Parry: A character ... by moving the shield to deflect attacks... 2x DB bonus from the shield ... others call it survival."

Yes, that is possible (at least when using Martial Law). OTOH double shield bonus is far from what a real parry plus shield would bring in terms of DB. And when closing the archer it means that the character remains at his old position giving the archer only another free shot.

[choc]

Depends on the shield you use. A buckler doesn't fit it but a great or wall shield does.

...

This reminds me of a dwarf with a large xbow and a wall shield