Author Topic: One Rolemaster to rule them all?  (Read 9735 times)

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Offline thrud

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2008, 01:59:25 AM »
I'm not sure total complete freedom of doing exactly whatever you want whenever you want is the answer.
But although it feels like we're getting way ahead of ourselves there might be something nice and shiny to be found in this.
Maybe a character generation sourcebook?
Advanced backrounds?
Options for allowing the pc to adjust skillcosts for a more individual taste?
Oh, I don't know? New exiting ways to tweek you pc and make him/her just a tiny bit less ordinary?

Once again building on the concept of scalability and options. Keeping the core rules core and adding options for those who want them?

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2008, 06:02:40 AM »
There is a profession sourcebook in the works for RMSS/FRP. As far as I know it is scheduled for 2009.

Maybe it will bring exactly what you listed. Only a part of it would be great already.

Offline Justin

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2008, 10:43:55 AM »
I like the idea of having it be as flexible as possible. For my players and me, the charm of RM since 1981 has always been that your character is as individual as a fingerprint, and the old "Why can't I __________?" that D&D GMs had to put up with from their players magically disappeared. [...] I figure the reason HARP hasn't replaced RM in its entirety is because there are still too many "anti-heroic" gamers out there who want their gritty realism.

*raises hand*

To that end, I'd like to see a character generation/management system that allows you to choose how many areas of focus you have and where they are, and adjusts skill costs accordingly. [...] The more areas you highlight, the more the entire skill set moves toward average costs. The fewer areas you highlight, the more things in your strong area are cheap and those outside it are expensive.

Don't like it at all, for reasons I described here
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7492.msg97210#msg97210
and
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=6971.msg93723#msg93723

What you call that character is up to you,

Again, realism GM here, but you don't call yourself anything. You state what you do. There are the rare exceptions--which I am one, I say I'm a teacher, but I'm not referring to career since I'm a programmer--but for the most part this statement is true. So if profession creation would be that varied, I just wouldn't "call" them anything at all.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2008, 06:25:54 PM »
I really don't see it as a problem. I mean yes, you can min-max to your heart's content, and players always will. It's irrational to expect a player to create a character that's less effective *in the areas the player considers important* than what he has in mind. But the price is always paid in the end, by the things that character simply cannot do well. With the range of skills available in RM, no one learns EVERYTHING they need to know.
As an example, take the Warrior Mage. Sure, you can make him nearly as effective in combat as a straight fighter. You can even make him simultaneously able to hold his own against the combat spell casters. But the price of that is he spends so many DPs on combat skills of one type or another that when the battle is over he has nothing to do. He's not any good at looking for secret doors, he's not any good at assessing the value of treasure, he's not any good at figuring out how to get back to the surface without having to face the monsters you just outran, he's not any good at tracking or cooking or a dozen other little skills a party needs.
Nearly all the variants available in RM are *possible* to create by careful spending of points in the parent profession. All ICE has done by including Magents, Caveliers, et. al. is place guideposts for tweaks commonly enough desired that GMs will often find their players asking, "How can I make my character able to _________?" If a player wants to create something midway between a Monk and a Warrior Mage, I have no problem with it. But my players all know that I WILL have my pound of flesh in payment for that, sooner or later. The lower cost for skills applying to combat spell casting will translate to higher costs somewhere else, somewhere the player didn't *think* was a priority until he found himself far from town trying to survive without those "low glamor content" skills. It all evens out in the end, so in terms of min-maxing for advantage there's never a "winning formula". Like the Warrior Mage, the compromises the player chooses give him the advantage in some specific areas, but always and forever give him disadvantages in others. Meanwhile, the player gets to play *what he actually chose* instead of merely close enough to keep him from grumbling.
If your players aren't feeling those disadvantages, perhaps you should put them in a scenario where the research and academic skills that no one ever learns suddenly become vital to his survival and/or success. Or take down their Druids/Animists/Rangers when they are far from town and low on food and water. Eventually they'll realize RM simply doesn't allow for a "one man adventuring party" and start tweaking characters for their usefulness to the *group*.

I had a Warrior Mage/Monk cross in a game once. If asked what he was and what he did, he replied, "I'm a dancer. Oh, and I also do special effects." His battle cry was "Five, six, seven, eight" muttered under his breath.
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Offline jolt

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2008, 07:02:50 PM »
Once again building on the concept of scalability and options. Keeping the core rules core and adding options for those who want them?

This is exactly what I want.  Core rules as core and options to expand as needed.  Even if you tweak your core rules at least we're all still starting at the same point and referencing the same thing.  I just don't see that we need multiple core rules for the same game.  Even in core rules there are options and ICE is well capable of putting out quality non-core books that can cater to the needs of whatever it is the community wants.  But I refuse to believe that we need multiple Rolemasters for RM to work.

jolt
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2008, 03:17:31 AM »
I'm not sure total complete freedom of doing exactly whatever you want whenever you want is the answer.

With the exception of setting and GM limitations, maybe it should be more free-form. At least, I think that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Options for allowing the pc to adjust skillcosts for a more individual taste?

I like this idea.

Oh, I don't know? New exiting ways to tweek you pc and make him/her just a tiny bit less ordinary?

You mean, like with Talents & Flaws? (Hmm....  ;D)

In a way you can combine the two ideas: Have a base set of skill costs and such that everyone begins with, that they then modify to suit their character idea. You want to reflect that your dad was a swordmaster and your mom an excellent painter? Take talents X & Y. In essence, this is just saying to the ICE bunch that you are looking for the rules they use to create the professions in the first place.

Personally, I have been leaning towards games that go away from the class (or profession, if you will) and level system and just have generic skill costs and how much you develop each skill determines what (archetype) you are. Example: Shadowrun.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2008, 08:06:50 AM »

Personally, I have been leaning towards games that go away from the class (or profession, if you will) and level system and just have generic skill costs and how much you develop each skill determines what (archetype) you are. Example: Shadowrun.


Well, RM is one step from getting rid of levels. I don't know if ICE is willing to do do so or not.

I would'nt compare professions to classes. A class is just a "thingie" that tells you what your character can and cannot do. No way to escpae it except through multiple classing. It's just apin in the neck.

A profession is telling you what you are good or bad at. Far better. It's just one step from having the player decide it himself.

Offline Skynet

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2008, 04:20:49 PM »
Personally, I have been leaning towards games that go away from the class (or profession, if you will) and level system and just have generic skill costs and how much you develop each skill determines what (archetype) you are. Example: Shadowrun.

That's easy, you just use the "no profession" profession for everyone. They just have to decide which way their DPs will go. I have one in my RM2 box in french. I'm thinking of using something like that someday. But the professions don't bother me because they are really flexible.

Offline Justin

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2008, 06:07:39 PM »
If your players aren't feeling those disadvantages, perhaps you should put them in a scenario where the research and academic skills that no one ever learns suddenly become vital to his survival and/or success.

See, the problem I have with that is that makes players rely on NPC's. And what am I to do, rp the time they spend twiddling their thumbs? Even I could get bored from that. I party needs to be able to handle *many* but not all things themselves.

Eventually they'll realize RM simply doesn't allow for a "one man adventuring party" and start tweaking characters for their usefulness to the *group*.

Which, in my experience, means you have a pc or two who can "tweak their usefullness" towards combat, and then the rest are horribly bored during combat. Maybe for some groups that would work well, but I've never had a group--no matter how skilled the roleplaying--which didn't want to get their fight on. I'm sick, and I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Or maybe it's something about my years of gaming experience and the groups I have/am been in that I haven't been able to put to words yet. But nonetheless, my opinion(however vaguely supported) stands.

It might also be that I've never been a min-maxer and dislike the idea in general. My friends used to tease me for my Diablo I characters--the figher with low str and hi int and chainlightening, and mage who was vice-versa'ed.
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2008, 07:27:56 PM »
In my experience, in RMSS, all the PCs that play in my current campaign may fight. They also all have two fields in which they are quite learned.

Elf Magent => divination, influence, poisoning
Elf Bard => lore, medicine and surgery
Elf Enchanter => languages, psychology (obviously) and flora
Gnome arcanist => alchemy and lay lines
Dwarf fighter => metals and metal crafts
Dwarf priest => religion, enchantments and tactics
Elf outrider => flora, fauna and all the skills to prepare remedies.


The magent is the only one who decided to impair her fighting skills because "Hey, my character may seduce them rather than kill them, and if need be she can stab them in the back while they kiss her". She actually managed to cause an allegiance shift just through a mix of divination, all out seduction and a small houri's kiss. Her godly 102 in appearance helped a lot.

The remainder of the characters were dangerous foes. All the characters had a pretty good set of skills and together they could take on most problem. And those they could not solve, they would bypass in an inventive way. I'll let the dwarven fightr say "why bother picking this lock when we can melt it, or hack the door to pieces?" and there goes a brand new door. Splinter-feist!

Now, if the story is good, it can be combat light. I played an entire night with only a 2 rounds long combat (the thief tried to break in a church and had to "remove" a guard) that took 5 minutes to solve. The rest of the time was spent in politics, investigating, gathering proof, preparing poisons and scheming for the demise of an inquisitor whose presence was resented by the local french overlord...

Players did not complain, they were happy, they had fun.

Offline jolt

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2008, 04:20:23 PM »
Your group seems to like elves.  Nary a human in sight.  Very different from our groups which tend to be human heavy; but that's one of the cool things about rpg's.  What did you base your Gnome off of; Underground Races?

jolt
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2008, 05:29:08 PM »
They are not exactly elves, but it would be a bit long to explain so I used the word elf.

The gnome is from "R&C: Underground races".

Offline thrud

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2008, 05:52:34 PM »
Your group is no more wierd than ours, except maybe the Gnome?
It's high fantasy...
We actually don't even have any arms users as of yet. We my have a Dwarf Paladin in the making though.  ;D

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »
I propose we open a thread for groupe compositions rather than destroying this one ^^

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2008, 10:59:18 AM »

Which, in my experience, means you have a pc or two who can "tweak their usefullness" towards combat, and then the rest are horribly bored during combat. Maybe for some groups that would work well, but I've never had a group--no matter how skilled the roleplaying--which didn't want to get their fight on. I'm sick, and I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Or maybe it's something about my years of gaming experience and the groups I have/am been in that I haven't been able to put to words yet. But nonetheless, my opinion(however vaguely supported) stands.

Even my party's healers can manage to "tweak themselves toward combat" a little, even if it's just the skill of safely diving through a melee and snatching someone out of it as you go. I have no problem with players wanting to "get their fight on". But I also have no problem with occasionally handing them a dilemma that simply can't be solved effectively without *someone, somewhere, at some point*, asking, "Does this town have a library?", and having the literacy and social skills for that question to be useful.
Players will ALWAYS want to "get their fight on", sure. But sooner or later the hack-and-slash-everything-that-moves fighter types have to come to terms with the idea that a campaign is not JUST a monster launcher. That may be fun in the short run, but in the long run it's like sleeping with a cardboard cutout of Angelina Jolie.
If I send a party off to check out a ruined city that seems to be mass producing undead, the fighters will have their fun, trust me on this. Obviously, so will the cleric types. All I'm saying is that such a scenario offers you a golden chance to screw up your party's day because they neglected to bring along a trained investigator, or a historian, or a civil engineer. Such chances should not be missed, because in general the more often your party members say "Oh doodoo", the better you're doing.
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Offline Justin

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2008, 09:03:05 AM »
All I'm saying is that such a scenario offers you a golden chance to screw up your party's day because they neglected to bring along a trained investigator, or a historian, or a civil engineer. Such chances should not be missed, because in general the more often your party members say "Oh doodoo", the better you're doing.
I'm probably lacking in this area as a GM. I try to work on it, but....*sigh*
"Even the most free roaming video game in the world still has to rely on programmed quest resolution triggers.  Only table-top RPGs make any solution possible.  Even ones not originally intended by the GM.  You  will never replace that." --Rivstyx

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2008, 07:45:53 PM »
I'm probably lacking in this area as a GM. I try to work on it, but....*sigh*

I find that it helps to be a bully. You don't wanna kill em, cos if you do the fun of torturing them is over. But ideally, every game session the fact that they *didn't* all die should come as a slight shock. If you don't put them into that "Oh no, we're all dead" frame of mind, they won't start pulling miracles out of the air.
To that end, I have no problem with stacking the deck against my players. Not only are they facing a monster that would be tough under the best of circumstances (and maybe a few more of em than they expected), but the monster is blocking the way they came in, the ruins they're investigating have shown a distressing tendency for floors, walls and/or ceilings to collapse, there's currently a sleet storm blowing through that is making every maneuver an adventure, etc. The more *little* factors you stack against them, a) the more "secondary skills" they find themselves wishing they had, and b) the easier it is for you to adjust things so it's *precisely* as bad as they can handle. For example when a floor collapses, you can decide according to *how the battle is going at the moment* whether what's under it is a bad fall, a slope, an excellent place to make a stand, etc. Not only that, it gives them all those fun loving little details to get innovative and make miracles with. Like the magician who runs several feet past the place where the sleet is blowing in and then throws a cold ball at the monster chasing him. With luck and timing, he not only coldballs his foe but creates an ice slick under him while his foe is *running*. Like the Warrior Monk who chooses carefully the section of wall he throws someone against. He's trying to collapse it on other monsters.
Don't be bashful about changing a crit result, either. Or using it to your advantage. I once had a rogue fighting giants at the top of a pit he'd just come out of. He was point man, everyone else was still behind him on a ladder. When the giant attacked, his crit knocked the rogue down and broke his leg. And ya know, I didn't feel bad AT ALL about telling that player his rogue was now hanging upside down from the top of the ladder, BY A BROKEN LEG. It put a nice little sense of urgency to things. Everyone lived, including the rogue. But they were moving like it mattered right from the get go.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2008, 02:34:04 AM »
We could game Grumpy.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline jolt

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2008, 09:19:49 AM »
I'm probably lacking in this area as a GM. I try to work on it, but....*sigh*

Well, ass with most things, I think moderation is the key.  When I was in college playing That Game that everyone played, we had a DGM who made pretty much every encounter a near death experience.  He felt it made the encounters more exciting and meaningful.  And to a certain degree it did; at least at first.  But after awhile it just got annoying.  Every encounter had some type of gimmick, weirdness, and/or hidden thingamajig (< please note my clever use of a highly technical term).  Pretty soon we spent more time thinking about what he didn't say rather than what he did.  At times that might not be bad but it just encouraged metagame thinking.

Clever skill use can add a lot to a game but players need to know what's meaningful and what isn't.  It's very frustrating for players to invest DP's into skills that are never going to have a useful application in your campaign.  Also, personally, I hate it when players have their character learn a skill "just because".  If character Grok has been described and played as a character who thinks first-acts second, has shown disdain for those "edumacated" types, and then decides to go and learn Advanced Math because he perceives some advantage to doing so, it drives me nuts.  YMMV.

jolt
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Offline Steve_990

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Re: One Rolemaster to rule them all?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2008, 10:18:20 AM »
I agree with Jolt... the real key is to mix it up all the time to keep them on their toes. Have some encounters normal (whatever that is... haha), others have some crazy twist, and other times, simply mention something that really ordinary... like a stray cat they see in the street.

If you don't mention those details often the players will suddenly get a very amusing paranoia about a regular event :) Of course - this last one should be used the rarest of all, and occassionally a ordinary looking everyday thing should turn into more so that investigating is always worth it - even if it's just funny cause it's really nothing.