Topic: Scaling Spells for High Level Spell Users

[kedrake]

In the "High Level Harp" thread some discussion was made about high level spell users and their ability to scale spells (or lack thereof) compared to lower level spell users.  I was intrigued and decided to study the issue a little further.

Scaling Spells at higher levels.

Let?s take the spell BladeTurn as an example.  The spell has a base power point cost of 5.  Its first scaling option is +2 power points.  BladeTurn is a utility spell, meaning that a roll of 71 or more is a success.

At 2nd Level (the lowest level to be able to cast this spell with a scaling option) the Mage could (should) have 9 ranks in this spell for a skill bonus of +45.  Figure a STAT bonus of +13 (90 in Reasoning, 75 in Self Discipline), for a total bonus of +58.

Casting Blade Turn with the +2 Power Point scaling option gives a penalty of -10 (-5 per power point) for a total bonus (assuming normal casting time and conditions) of +48.  Meaning that actual die roll must be a 23 or better to succeed.

At 5th the same caster casting the same spell could (should) have 18 ranks in this spell for a bonus of +66.  Add in the Stat bonus of +13 for a total bonus of +76.  With the -10 penalty for scaling the total bonus would be +66, meaning a roll of (be careful now) 6 or better would be a success.  NOTE: A roll of 5 would technically give you a result of 71 for a ?success?, but an unmodified roll of 5 or less is an automatic FUMBLE of the spell.

Here we have found the ?top limit? of this spell with this scaling option.  You scaling ?penalty? (or more accurately your chance of success) can never go down from this level on (for this amount of scaling) no matter your level limit.

It should be possible to determine the ?top limit? for any scaling option given the flat penalty of -5 / power point.

Power Points Used in Scaling	Penalty for Scaling	Skill Ranks to Overcome Penalty*	Minimum Level of Caster
1	5	14	4
2	10	16	5
3	15	19	6
4	20	22	7
5	25	27	8
6	30	32	10
7	35	37	12
8	40	42	13
9	45	47	15
10	50	52	17
15	75	57	18
20	100	62	20
25	125	67	22
30	150	72	23
35	175	77	25
*Assumes a total stat bonus of +13

So what this really means is that (barring any magical devices) a 25th Level Mage and a 5th Level Mage have the exact same change of casting this spell with this scaling option successfully.  As the chance of a "failure" (e.g. Fumble) is on 5 in 100(ish), I can see no real way to "improve" the casting of the 25th Level Mage.

[fallenone]

When it comes to counterspells (or Dispell Magic) then it's an advantage to have more ranks in it. Besides this I can't see another reason. So it depends on your style of play (or setting) if a mage needs to specialize in his magics to be 'unbeatable' or is able to learn lots of different things.
I like your table.

[jasonbrisbane]

I suppose the difference is that the 25th level mage has the option to scale bladeturn to -300 whereas the 5th level mage does not!

The penalties therefore would be different for the 25th L mage casting Bladeturn -300 compared to the 5th level mage casting Bladeturn (-50) .


But yes, you are correct.
The difference here is that the 5th level mage has a good chance of getting three or four spells that he really wants, to the level he wants.
i.e. (I don't have my books with me so the numbers would be out)

Elemental Bolt: FIRE - Scale up to medium (or Large).
Elemental Bolt: Air - Scale up to medium (or Large).
Elemental Ball: FIRE - Scale up to medium (or Large).
Elemental Ball: Air - Scale up to medium (or Large).
Mage Armour: Scaled up once or twice (but more ranks the better)
Magic Shield: again needs approx 17 ranks ( base + wall shield)

And he would be lucky to have that.
To be a truly useful player he would also need ranks in Perception, PP development, & Attunement.
Other useful skills would be Arcane Lore (Spells, UNdead lore, and probably at least a few others), Runes, Languages spoken and written, at least a couple of ranks in healing (or the spell Minor healing), Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Counterspell. a  Boost spell or two (SD and your Magic stat would be good for a quick PP boost!)

Otherwise you've got a spellcasting wombat (as opposed to a combat wombat, as we call them in Australia).
To be a usable character you need more than just weapon skills/spells and being a high level character gives you this opportunity.
I think this reflects a Low level magic users cloistered lifestyle after which they become "Journeyman"; to increase their life skills, etc.
I don't think the system needs changing or adjusting...

College of Magic (IIRC) also gives you details as to what skills are good for mages and magic using characters....

[WoeRie]

So what this really means is that (barring any magical devices) a 25th Level Mage and a 5th Level Mage have the exact same change of casting this spell with this scaling option successfully.  As the chance of a "failure" (e.g. Fumble) is on 5 in 100(ish), I can see no real way to "improve" the casting of the 25th Level Mage.

I think you also forget about the "double", "tripple" and other improved casting results. Our mage already starts to calculate with these during her casting, so this is a very nice thing for high level caster.

[DavidKlecker]

There was one idea I had that was based on the talent Enhancement. That is, Enhancement can be bought at anytime and it gives you for every 2 PPs you get a -5 when scaling. I was thinking of adding an Major Enhancement and Greater Enhancement. Major gives -5 per 3 PP and Greater give -5 per 4PP. Each worth 30DP and you must buy the previous enhancement first. But there is another catch. You cannot use Major enhancement on any spell less than 20 ranks and you cannot use Greater Enhancement on any spell less than 40 ranks. It get 20 ranks in anything requires level 6 and 40 ranks requires level 14. Also odds are mages are not going to rank up too many spells like this so only a few spells will have this ability. One could even limit further by saying they can only use this on their own spheres.

Another idea was to give the mage the ability to add +10 to any spell every 1st, 5th, 10th level and so on. But yeah... in the end the biggest reasons to want a easier scaling ruleset is for your Offensive attack and Counterspell.

[jurasketu]

Don't forget spells that have durations based on spell ranks. So 32 ranks x 2 rounds= 64 rounds is MUCH better than 6 ranks x 2 rounds= 12 rounds for Boost Quickness, Boost Self Discipline, etc for the exact same expenditure of power points.

Robin