Author Topic: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?  (Read 3258 times)

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Offline Dark Schneider

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Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« on: November 08, 2007, 04:03:58 AM »
I propose a complete change to alchemy, this can be long so I'll try to explain it the best I can, too we can develop this for editing a new RM quarterly with the new rules and spell lists as a complete package (as a TC supplement). Now the points:

1) I think alchemy should be a more linear skill, with no 'barriers' for creating depending of items created. So, SPELL LISTS should be changed.

First, we should split completely the 'item creation' and 'item enchant' process, so we need to remove 'enchant spells' from all 'working' lists, for example the 'create wand' in 'organic skills', a good example of a 'creation' spell list is the 'inorganic skills', you have the 'weapon' and 'armor' spells completely in other lists.

Then, the greater change is for 'enchant lists', I think the best is using a way equal to HEALER profession, that spell that allows him to transfer wounds, it exists in a virtual way, because you spend PPs depending on wounds to transfer.
So, for alchemy it could be the same, but we use a FORMULA to determine the PPs to use, additionally we need to have the same ranks than PPs to use (or spell level).
Some examples can be the following (for same realm):

- embed = spell lvl. So we can embed a 1-use spell of the same level we have. Actually we need level 20 to embed a level 10 spell, and level 50 to embed a level 11 spell. I think an alchemist should be allowed to embed (create magical items) from level 1, actually he can't.

- wand = 1 + (lvl x 1.5). We could modify or remove the spell level limit for these items, if you create a wand instead a rod, you have 10% to discharge it with any use, that is enough penalty IMO, it is clearly a less powerfull item.

- rod = 3 + (lvl x 1.75).

- staff = 5 + (lvl x 2). So we can create a staff I with level 7 and staff X with level 25, staff XV with level 35, etc.
Look that now we don't need the CREATE STAFF (wand or rod) in organic skills, because is part of enchantment process. So once we create the base staff item (work wood), we can create in the enchantment process a weapon, a charged item, or both.

- constant = lvl x 5.

- Potions = lvl. As embed, but think that you need more time to create it. I think a potioner should be allowed to create a potion with a spell the same level himself, if not be a potioner is a disadvantage.
For multiple doses is simple, simply (lvl x doses).
For gas potions, to determine (maybe 4 + (lvl x 1.5)).

These are only examples, so it can be modified, see that really is a combination of (periodicity + offset), the offset is used to determine the first level to allow to create the first item of that type (for example rod or staff).
For OTHER REALM we need to increase the formulas.
The idea is 'more powerfull item =  more level to create the same', for example with level 7 we can create a Wand IV or a Staff I, because staff is much more powerfull (10 times).

So, now in these lists we could put in them utility spells (as with ench. armors, that now have defense spells), as detecting magic and others, making the list usefull for daily use. In the case of potions (liquid/gas skills), as we can remove the 'potion #' spells, we can change them with other utility spells, and create new ones (in essence companion there is a brewing list that can aid).


2) CREATION METHOD, as I said before, base item creation and enchantment should be splitted, so I proppose that an item creation have 2 steps:

- step 1: base item creation. We need tools to work, and it requires 8 hours per day, we need the respective 'work' spells.

- step 2: enchantment. We ONLY need to cast the spells on the base item, so we can go to adventures, but take care because you have less PPs as you need to cast everyday the alchemy spells, as general rule, any day you don't cast these spells, 1 day to add to item creation time, with a maximum of original time, so this is as if it discharges the enchant if you don't cast the spells everyday. The item type MUST be declared with the first enchant casting, and can't be changed.
For example, an items needs 4 weeks to enchant (28 days), we enchant it for 15 days, but then we see that we need all PPs in adventure, so we don't cast the enchant spells for 5 days, when returning to enchant the item, we need now (28 - 15 + 5) = 18 days; if we are 50 days with not enchant the item, we need 28 days in any way because is the original cost.

With this, a potioner can create many 'base potions' in the laboratory while resting, and when go to adventures, he can enchant the doses with no losing time. But look that in the case of potions, as the base item needs the respective 'potion #' spell, it is determined of what 'embed #' can be used on it, for example, if we use Potion V in the base item, we could create a lvl 5 spell potion (embed V), or a 5 doses lvl 1 spell potion (embed I).

This makes alchemy much more versatile.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all this boring chat, the points to work are mainly:

- Formulas (for same and other realm).
- New replacement utility spells to insert into lists.
- Debugging the rules and maybe determine a new price for magical items.

RM Quarterly 8, let's go!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 04:12:33 AM by Dark Schneider »

Offline Temujin

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2007, 12:16:21 AM »
The alchemical system of RM works fine...  The only thing is that the price chart sometimes forgets the formula, but otherwise, its a very solid system.  yep, you do have to "stay at home", but then again, enchanting in the field doesn't make much sense either.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 02:40:38 AM »
Very good points Dark Schneider...I think you have noticed most design weaknesses in TC as I noticed myselves. Perhaps it is time to blow the dust away from my alchemy system that only need about 5% more work to be perfect. I halted work of this system to work on my master's thesis, but the thesis should be done in less than a month so I will finally have the time to finish the alchemy system.

Anyway I don't think field enchanting is that imperative. Few campaign will include such anyway (yet it would of course be nice if field enchanting is possible with some rule tweaking). More important is that a group should be able to take a few weeks break to get the magic item they need. With TC rules we are speaking about years before any powerful item is done and the price structure that is meant as a barrier is game breaking when you consider what happen with the price on secondary market or the black market.
/Pa Staav

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 07:51:43 AM »
I think the current system is good, but rule changes in time to produce and cost are needed.

I myself use one day per level of the alchemy spell to produce, with no multiplying for additional spells.  Works very well for me. 

All prices have been reduced to silver listed in the TC, and I do not use the exact cost equation either provided.  For an old school dungeon crawling ADnD like game were players will acquire millions of GP, it is fine, but the cost system falls so far outside real world economic considerations as to be embaressing, not to mention unweildy and useless.

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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 08:57:52 AM »
Quote
with no multiplying for additional spells

I use that, if not multi-purpose items (usual in other games) are really impossible.

Quote
All prices have been reduced to silver listed in the TC, and I do not use the exact cost equation either provided.

I use (level x level x time) sp, as the 'rarity' should be the most important thing.

I think too that the system works fine, almost, so this try to correct the weak points, as the 'jump' for some items and level (embed X lvl 20, embed XI lvl 50  :o ), and make a difference for some items too (with level 30 you can create constant lvl 1 or lvl 10 item  ???, with level 15 you can create a staff 1-6), and too adjust a bit some items level creation (as potions, if not potioners are in clear disadvantage).

So, as summary, I see good changing that and, based on current system, modify it so these problems to be resolved.

Mainly we should search for:

- determine the first level for any item creation.
- determine level needed for greater version of those items.

And then, the idea of using a 'formula' I think is the best solution, with that we can easily determine both, with an initial value and adding a multiply factor (base + (factor x spell level)). But with this we have the problem of no having enough spell list free slots (more spells than allowed in a list), for that the other idea of making them as 'virtual' (as he transfer wounds for 'healer') and then filling the alchemy lists with utility spells, maybe specialized in detection of power and thing like that, see that new TC lists are filled with utility spells while old RM2 alchemy lists are blank for those slots (enchant armor is a good example, now we have defensive spells).

But I think as this is an important change, should be made by many people to reach balanced rules.

Offline Balhirath

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 05:03:50 AM »
Hmm I have thought about this a lot of times and here's a very easy solution that I came up with:
I spilt the magical items into two different kind: Enchanted and Enruned.

Enchanted Items are made with the core rules, with very few modifications. I use the rules that several Alchmists can work at the same item at the same time.
I have also invented something called Design. Alchemists need to make a Research roll to make a design, but once it's made it will halve the time used to create the item. (Actually I made this rule up because I need to explain why so many magical swords looks alike. Thats because designs are diffucult to make and thus it's easer to use an existing design.. especially for low level Alchemists :) )

Enruned Items are made with Spirit Runes (Which in my world is not a Magus list, but a Guild list for Alchemists).
They are somewhat easier to make, an alchemist can enchant several items at the same time and it can be done while traveling. However, Items made by Enruning can be dispelled and they break using the normal rules for breaking things, they rust ect.
 
This system seems to work (For me at least :) ) as the players are able to buy magical items for a reasonable price, as long as they are aware that they get what they pay for.
.. and they players learn to hate the various Dispell xxx spells  ;D which does not stop them from using those spells themselves.. just in case   :D

I'm new here, but have played RM2 on and off for 20 years. :)

Offline markc

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 07:52:27 PM »
 I would like to see something as I remember looking at the TC and saying to myself; you cannot make most of the items by the construction rules presented in the book. Are all of them like artifacts? Or do all of them require lord research to get a design?

 I like the design template rule.

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Offline pastaav

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2007, 03:57:54 PM »
Actually some of those that you can make does not match what you get with following the actual rules. Discovered this when I tried to recreate some of the magic items.
/Pa Staav

Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Complete change to alchemy, a new RM quarterly?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 03:46:32 AM »
Quote
Enchanted Items are made with the core rules, with very few modifications. I use the rules that several Alchmists can work at the same item at the same time.
I have also invented something called Design. Alchemists need to make a Research roll to make a design, but once it's made it will halve the time used to create the item. (Actually I made this rule up because I need to explain why so many magical swords looks alike. Thats because designs are diffucult to make and thus it's easer to use an existing design.. especially for low level Alchemists Smiley )

The use of design to reduce time is very good, added to alchemy rules pool, I always have thought that an alchemist should use their own skills, so spells don't allow to 'work' with no skill (metal crafts, wood crafts...), using the 'Construct Companion' rules for that. Because the 'Ice Vault' alchemist TPs (there is a PDF) should be included too in alchemy rules, and they give you those skills.

Quote
Enruned Items are made with Spirit Runes (Which in my world is not a Magus list, but a Guild list for Alchemists).
They are somewhat easier to make, an alchemist can enchant several items at the same time and it can be done while traveling. However, Items made by Enruning can be dispelled and they break using the normal rules for breaking things, they rust ect.

Maybe this is what are many people searching for, we can call them 'temporal items', and the reward for not making the item permanent is an easier way to create (more like D&D items). This can be usefull too for weapons, because you can create a weapon +10 with your current level, make it temporal (take care of 'dispell'), so its magic ends when you have enough level to make a weapon +15. Good point.

- As we can see, taking some rules from here and there the alchemy system can be very improved and tuned.