Topic: Tumbling Evasion???

[Der Graumantel]

In the past years I didn´t care much for martial arts and eastern culture in RPGs, but for some reason I came to look on the Tumble Evasion skill.I read the description in Character Law (FRP), SoHK and Rolemaster Comp.2 and this skill makes no sense to me at all.
Its in the Combat Maneuver Skill Category, that makes it available for fighters of all sorts (Fighter, Rogue, Babarian and so on). They have to sacrifice their attack (including parry) and shield for the use of that skill,that gives you +1 to your DB for each rank. Why should anyone do that. Make a full parry and the ordinary Fighter will have a quite higher DB. And then the Skill is restricted. Puhh, how much to pay for that.

Wait, there is one ocassion where it makes sense: you are defending against more than 3 opponents that surround you with bows.... And for that you want to pay so many  dev. points?

Another thing is the asian feel of that skill. I mean, imagine a plated knight doing Tumbling Evasion. No...(and if he would feel his min. maneuver mod. hehe)
So it could be nice for Warrior Monks and Monks. No, Adrenal Defence gives them so much more.

Why should anyone use that skill?

Ben

P.S. Maybe I´ve overseen things here. This is in no way meant as truth, just as what understood while reading the books, so help me!

[Dark Schneider]

I see that skill really useless.

[Arioch]

Hasn't MAC changed the skill in some way? Something like make a roll on the Moving Manuever table and add the result to your DB?

[Ecthelion]

No, MAC just adds that the skill requires 60% activity but otherwise leaves things as they are explained in SoHK or the core rules. Indeed I can't remember a character every developing this skill.

[yammahoper]

As listed the skill is mostly useless.  However, the small bonus is added to Qu and item DB bonuses, and is a way to increase DB against a bolt or area attack.

We use the actual skill bonus as the DB gain for the round against all attacks.  Other than quick draw and throw a weapon at a big negative, or cast an instant spell, tumble evade cost enough activity to prevent any other useful action, though it is a good skill to up DB and cover open ground when used the way we use it.

lynn

[Der Graumantel]

Does it make sense to use it against area spells?? I mean how to evade a fireball by tumbling?

So I?m happy that I was quite right about this obscure skill, but I?m not happy that such a skill has made its way through all versions of Rolemaster.

[yammahoper]

The +1 DB per rank against ball attacks is effective.  However, we use the mnv to "dive for cover" or clear the area, and the DB gained represents how effective the mnv was.  In these instances, I declare a dificulty, the mnv is made on the MM table, and the % achieved is the % of skill bonus used to enhance DB.  When I say skill bonus, I mean from skill bonus using normal combined progression, not total skill. 

lynn

[Warl]

I do similiar to what Yamma does...

Full Skill bonus to DB and i also allow it to be applied against missile and spell.  I do require at least a 50% move in a specific direction for the round.

[Vince]

I agree that is useless as described on books, but we have talked sometimes to use it like a way to "get Out of Combat situation". Sometimes some players develop it, if they have good stats, level bonus, and wear amors; because with the skill is easier to flee when you are engaged to one or more foes.

Another thing that we use( because we imagine the skill that way), is that you can evade totally some kind of attacks losing all the round. This attacks should be like evade some horse-rider charging at you, with a clear direction and lots of space to roll.  So, in this situations if you make a very hard maneuver you totally evade from distance to hit...

Anyway, still is not a very used skill.

[Dark Schneider]

Maybe the MA version should be used for everyone, if I remember well the MA version uses the maneuver result (MM with a determined dificulty) as DB against 1 attack and the ranks for all others.

See that if you have many ranks you can add 20-30 DB to ALL attacks, if you receive 5 attacks (melee, missile, magical bolts...) this sum a total of 100-150 DB.

But of course the skill should not be restricted, this is not advantage for armor users, because you substract the armor penalty to MM, so it is less effective, and MA users have AD in any way.

[Arioch]

That's what I thought, too, but then Ecthelion rightfully corrected me, saying that the MAC did not change the Tumbling Evasion skill.
I think that the confusion was generated by the Adrenal Tumbling skill...

[vroomfogle]

Another great example of how having all these extra skills is just plain silly.   Do we really need multiple Tumbling skills where one is obviously far better?    I use a single Evasion skill (called Evasion), which works as Dark Schneider stated above:   MM roll use DB vs one opponent, Rank for all others.

As a side note, we had added an option to RMC called "Dodge" which anyone can do and works this same way (use the MM table) but it uses Acrobatics skill, or Agility bonus (whichever is higher).

[Vince]

Another great example of how having all these extra skills is just plain silly.   Do we really need multiple Tumbling skills where one is obviously far better?    I use a single Evasion skill (called Evasion), which works as Dark Schneider stated above:   MM roll use DB vs one opponent, Rank for all others.

As a side note, we had added an option to RMC called "Dodge" which anyone can do and works this same way (use the MM table) but it uses Acrobatics skill, or Agility bonus (whichever is higher).

This is better that i posted before.

[DavidKlecker]

Here's what I do with the multiple tumbling skills

Tumbling under Acrobatics will give the player a bonus to the DB based on the roll. Near success is +25 to their DB. Success is +50. Spectacular success is +75 (higher than a 175).  A roll of a perfect hundred is automatic miss.

Tumbling Evasion is based on MM using the Extremely Hard column. Roll a 1D100 and add your TE bonus. Cross reference the MM chart and add that to your DB. The last two options on the table I simply use 130 then 150.

Tumbling is 100% action, while Tumbling Evasion is 60%.

This seems to balance out the fact that regular tumbling is easier to build than TE and that fighters will be far more adept at this skill than the average layman.

[Dax]

...
As a side note, we had added an option to RMC called "Dodge" which anyone can do and works this same way (use the MM table) but it uses Acrobatics skill, or Agility bonus (whichever is higher).

There should be Dodge as a Combat Action.
A movement which brings the combatant out of the reach of his opponent
at the cost of any attack (90 - 100 % action).
(like the conflicting action example in Mxxp)

And there should be an appropriate skill, maybe (Tumbling) Evasion.

[GoblynByte]

...
As a side note, we had added an option to RMC called "Dodge" which anyone can do and works this same way (use the MM table) but it uses Acrobatics skill, or Agility bonus (whichever is higher).

There should be Dodge as a Combat Action.
A movement which brings the combatant out of the reach of his opponent
at the cost of any attack (90 - 100 % action).
(like the conflicting action example in Mxxp)

And there should be an appropriate skill, maybe (Tumbling) Evasion.

I always assumed "parry" to be an abstract representation of "avoiding a strike by tactics learned in coordination of a particular fighting style" (i.e. you learn to dodge/parry/reposte while using a particular weapon and thus the the act of devoting some of the OB to DB represents this defense...the actual form this defense takes is rather moot 'cause the result is all the same...avoiding the attack).  When training to use a weapon you don't just learn to attack.  You also learn to defend while creating opportunity to attack better.  These tactics are largely unique from one weapon type to another so it makes sense to split skill off that particular OB and not have a generic "dodge" skill all by itself.  You're using defense tactics that are tailored to that weapon form.

I suppose adding a dodge skill would be okay, but how many fighting styles just teach you how to dodge without also teaching you how to combine such defenses with forms of offense?  It sort of goes against one of the assumptions of RM that you will devote some of your offense to defense.  Doesn't it?

That's my view from an amateur's standpoint anyway.

[vroomfogle]

GoblynByte - but what happens if you don't have any weapon at all in your hand?    I think the Didge maneuver makes sense because it allows someone to spend their round avoiding attack, but without having to rely on having their preferred weapon in hand.

[GoblynByte]

GoblynByte - but what happens if you don't have any weapon at all in your hand?    I think the Didge maneuver makes sense because it allows someone to spend their round avoiding attack, but without having to rely on having their preferred weapon in hand.

Hmm...I suppose that's true.  But wouldn't that fall into the catagory of Martial Arts?  I mean, I honestly can see your point, but one could abstractly refer to the general use of unarmed combat as acting with training (however informal) in unarmed combat.  Um...did that make sense what I just said there?    Anyway, if you assume first that dodging and parrying is an abstract of "weapon training" (which RM does to my understanding)  than that could also carry over to "non-weapon training" as well.  Thus you could use the Martial Arts skill or even the Brawling skill.

Think of it like this: a warrior is trained in the use of a weapon.  He is trained to attack and defend while using that weapon with tactics (both active and passive) that will take advantage of the weapon's unique properties.  He might also be trained to act accordingly when that weapon is lost.  So if he drops his sword his "unarmed" combat training kicks in.  Still a form of combat, just without the weapon.  So he would use his "unarmed combat" OB, whatever skill that comes from.  If he devotes all of his energy to defending (uses 100% of the OB of that skill), he's still using training associated with that form (the same goes for armed combat).

The real question is whether or not a character would practice and train in the art of "dodging" without some appropriate form of combat training.  In my mind it would all tie into at least some form of training to fight.  Thus it would inevitabely be tied to one OB or another.

Now, that's just my take on it.  I just think it eliminates the need for extra defensive skills.  Because if a Dodge skill be called for, why not a Parry skill, or a Shield Block skill?  All these actions I see as abstract notions of one tactic: defense.  And all these actions I see as being tied to general combat training of a single type (i.e. weapon type) and I don't really see too many people training in such skills unless they also get combat training.  By the simple act of learning how to get out of the way of an attack you afford some knowledge of how to deliver an attack, so I see them as tied together.  But I certainly see arguments for having these skills be independant.

[Dark Schneider]

I usually allow to use the 25% of the maximum character's OB to evade, because it is supposed that in parry not all is blocking. So if you don't have your weapon in the hand, you can use the 'avoid' part of your training.

Example: fighting against a huge creature usually you can't block its attack, so this is more 'avoid' its attack, as we can see the avoid is part of the OB itself.

But the 'tumbling evasion', if used as described in this post, is more effective.

[vroomfogle]

GoblynByte - in RMC no need for any additional defensive skill - as we use Acrobatics or Agility bonus.   You raise some good points and in most cases one will parry if they have the skill.   But imagine someone without any fighting skill at all - they should be able to dodge or avoid someone attacking them.   And we figured the effectiveness of this would be based on the defender's agility.    And if you are very acrobatic then you are better at it.   

I think the need for an additional Tumbling Evasion skill is minimal - like you said how do you train specifically in the art of dodging?   But having an ability to spend your entire round avoiding getting hit in the absence of a weapon or any sort of combat training is a good option.