Topic: RMC vs RMFRP: Power Levels

[vroomfogle]

As I'm reading through RMX and RMC again I've been doing a lot of thinking about the differences between RM2/RMC and RMSS/RMFRP, so you'll probably see more posts from me in the RMC vs RMFRP vain.

The power level difference between the two systems is something that is brought up a lot so I thought it was worthwhile to examine what the power differences in the two systems are from.  In the Bladeturn thread yammahopper said:

In RM2, a starting level 1 OB varies from 40-50 for a fighter.  In RMFRP it is 55-70.  At level 20, RM2 OB is 165-180, while in RMFRP it is 140-150.

So what are those differences due to?

Profession Bonuses
In RMC we have "Level Bonuses" which give +X/lvl.   In RMFRP there are static bonuses at 1st level.   Fighters, for their weapon skills, get +3/lvl (RMC) and +20 (RMFRP).    At level 1 this is a +17 difference, which is about the 1st level difference quoted by yamma above.     But at Level 20 this becomes a +40 difference, which is greater then yamma's quote above.    Well that's because there's a few other factors in play here, discussed below.   Also note that RMC gives an option for RMSS-style static bonuses, but they are about x2 higher....so that option in RMC would give fighters a +40.

Skill Rank Bonuses
The bonuses due to skill rank are different in the two systems.  The RMFRP bonuses in the table below are based on the combined skill progression, or 1 rank in skill+1 rank in category.

[tabular caption="RMC vs RMFRP Skill Rank Bonuses"]
[row] [head]Skill Rank[/head] [head]RMC Bonus[/head] [head]RMFRP Bonus[/head][/row]
[row] [data]10[/data] [data]50[/data] [data]50[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]20[/data] [data]70[/data] [data]80[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]30[/data] [data]80[/data] [data]95[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]40[/data] [data]85[/data] [data]100[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]50[/data] [data]90[/data] [data]105[/data] [/row]
[/tabular]


Thus, based on these differences are +40 difference from Profession bonuses, at level 20+ (assuming at least 30 ranks in a prime skill) is reduced by 15, so now we see a difference of 25 between the systems...at high level.

Stat Bonuses
RMFRP stat bonuses range from -10 to +10 and three are used in each skill meaning stat mods to skills go from -30 to +30 rather then RMC's -25 to +25.    Also, in RMFRP we have higher potential stats on average) and so I've assumed a difference of about +5 or so.

Talents
RMFRP makes extensive use of Talents, which can be quite a wildcard and as such it is very difficult to estimate differences due to talents.

Bottom Line
Excluding talents we can now use the following rule of thumb (keep in mind this is based on Fighter OBs)
- At Level 1 RMFRP OB is about 20 higher then RMC.
- At Level 20 RMFRP OB is about 20 lower then RMC.
- At Level 10 RMFRP and RMC are about even.

Moving beyond to other Professions-defining skills we can find a similar trend, though not as great:
- At Level 1 RMFRP skill is about 10-15 higher then RMC.
- At Level 20 RMFRP OB is about 10-15 lower then RMC.
- At Level 10 RMFRP and RMC are about even.

Moving to non Profession-defining skills we'll see RMC and RMFRP mostly even until level 5 and up where RMFRP will pull away by a few points due to slightly higher stats.    At higher levels we'll see more of an impact of RMFRP's higher skill rank bonuses (Rank 10+), so we see the same thing.   Close enough to call all other skills about even between RMC and RMFRP.

There's an additional caveat though - all this assumes a profession develops the same skills in roughly the same manner between the two systems which is probably not going to be the case.    My experience is that with the basic RMFRP rules there are too few DP's and characters tend to be spread far thinner then in RMC.    Also there is the issue of category ranks vs skill ranks which will further complicates things and hurts my head too much.


Enough rambling - perhaps this is useful for anyone wishing to do a quick and dirty conversion between the two systems.

[ob1knorrb]

An interesting analysis. Thanks!  I'm always interested in information that can be used in doing conversions between systems.

[vroomfogle]

An interesting analysis. Thanks!  I'm always interested in information that can be used in doing conversions between systems.

While I've used both systems I haven't really done any real work converting stuff myself so I'd be interested in any real-world experience or observations concerning the two with regard to power level.

I also meant to say above that I'd suggest if you do use some sort of Static Profession Bonus option in RMC it may be a good idea to utilize the RMFRP style progression (+5 to Rank 10, +3 to Rank 20, etc) to give larger bonuses at higher ranks in order to boost those bonuses a bit.  Otherwise you will find bonuses raising very very slowly past Level 10-20 (because they are only going up by 1 or 2 per rank without a level bonus).   

This is what I prefer anyway (static profession bonuses + larger skill rank progression above Rank 10) because it puts the focus back on skill development rather then level.     I think that's a problem with RM2/RMC in that at higher levels bonuses are drive more by what your level is rather then skill ranks, Especially if you use expanded level bonuses (which apply the level bonuses to a wider range of skills).

[markc]

 IMO, this works well if and only if you do not use the RM2 rules where you can add level bonuses. For example if a fighter normally has a level bonus of +3 and the RoCo says you can raise it to +5, it gets out of wack very quickly. On the RMSS side you have training packages that can skew the results if the GM lets them buy a TP and ranks in a skill during level up.

 The biggest problem I have seen was with a CoGM who knew the system well enough to GM but did not have a good grasp on the varous levels vs skill. ie like you said above 10th level = about 30+ranks max so an OB of 95+stats.

 All in all it is very nice to have a chart to show someone the varous level vs level numbers. In fact I think it would be a good guild companion article as many people use old RM2 books to play RMSS/RMFRP. You might also do a collum with RM2 vs RMX.

MDC

[Dark Schneider]

A good method to balance at high levels could be the buy talent rules in CL, so for high levels characters begin to buy talents with XP instead buy ranks to +0'5 skills (31+ ranks).

We use a rule to limit this, is that you only can buy talents that cost the same or less than your own level, so powerfull talents are reserved for high-level characters.

And in 30-50 levels we can create with high level talents the usual 'EPIC CHARACTERS' typical of many RPGs.

For initial talents (racial points), there is no limit of level-talent, so we DOUBLE the talents cost for talents purchased with racial points, and it works well.

The talent adquisition can be very interesting in the case of spell users and 'magical' talents (double ratio, increase range, +10 to BAR...), so we have more than learn new spells (buy spell lists ranks), because between level 7-15 we can begin to increase the power of our spells.

[rboleyn]

Another consideration is body development.

In RM2 a 1st level common man fighter could expect about 30 hits ( (Co/10 + 4.5 [hit die] x 4 [ranks]) x 1.1 (for Co bonus)) (~33 if you use the optional level bonuses). In RMSS they'd have about 55-60 hits (10 [base] + 10 [fighter bonus] + 10 [2 x Co bonus] + ~3 [SD bonus] + 6 [rank bonus] x 4 [ranks]).

At 10th level an RM2 fighter might have (9 + 22 x 4.5)  x 1.1 = 119 Hits, and he'll max out at 132 hits at about 13th level. With level bonuses he'll max out with 132 hits at 8-9th level.

At 10th level RMSS figher might well have 10 + 10 + 2 x 7 [Co bonus] + 4 [SD bonus] + 6 x 10 + 4 x 10 + 2 x 2 = 142. He has no max hits, and thus can continue to gain 4 hits/level to 14th level, and 2 hits/level thereafter if the player desires (probably not much point, but you never know).

Thus at 1st level the RMSS fighter has about twice the Hits of the RM2 fighter, while at 10th level he has 19% more (or 8% more if level bonuses are used in RM2).

I don't yet have RMC, so I can't say what the fixed bonus options in there do.

Looking at this, there's a bit leg up for RMSS fighters at 1st level that slowly erodes to about 10th, and then opens up again due to the lack of a cap, but at a point where it really doesn't matter much.

One thing worth noting, IMO, is that this difference will be less noticeable in non-fighters, because they get a smaller bonus in RMSS, but in RM2 they only pay more, and even if you use the level bonuses in RM2, because of the cap the non-fighters can catch up - it just takes longer for them to hit the cap. As a result in RMSS semi-fighters (rogues, warrior-monks, etc.) aren't as far ahead of their RM2 versions as the fighter is.

[vroomfogle]

Good point about Body Development.  We also see the same thing with Power Points.  In RM2 a 1st level caster would only have a few PPs.   At 10th level they would have 10 or 20 PPs (MAYBE 30).   If you used PPD they would have double that.   In RMSS you can quite easily have 50 PPs by 3rd or 4th level.   

However, in reality it was less of an issue then BD because I think that power multipliers were much more common as a result in RM2.

[rboleyn]

Good point about Body Development.  We also see the same thing with Power Points.  In RM2 a 1st level caster would only have a few PPs.   At 10th level they would have 10 or 20 PPs (MAYBE 30).   If you used PPD they would have double that.   In RMSS you can quite easily have 50 PPs by 3rd or 4th level.   

However, in reality it was less of an issue then BD because I think that power multipliers were much more common as a result in RM2.

Also, the RMSS power points weren't all 'free' to use, because of the penalties you got to casting once you'd used 25%, 50%, and 75% of them. However, it's hard to tell how significant that is because it depends on how skilled the caster is, how often they run their PP levels down to where this matters, and whether the character mainly casts spells in combat (and thus hastily) or out of combat (and can thus spend time).

[markc]

 I personaly see the biggest difference at higher levels 25+, but also at some low level stuff. A CoGM was using orcs out of RM2 creatures and treasures and thier OB was about twice that of RMSS orcs, 80 vs 40. The numbers were off the top of my head so dont quote me but after that we did a lot of checking and quite a few of the monsters had higher OB's and DB's.

 Another point is DB. In RM2 adarenal defence could be abused and DB's tended to be very high compaired to SS/FRP.

MDC

[yammahoper]

I am under the impression body dev and power point dev max at 40 ranks, just like the skill alertness/sense ambush.

lynn

[Marc R]

On the FRP side or RMC? I think in RMC you can buy as many ranks of either as you want, but BD is a waste once you hit "racial max hits".

[vroomfogle]

For Adrenal Defense though, the RMSS rank bonus is higher then in RM2 so AD is more powerful in RMSS unless you use the Martial Arts Companion and % activity.

I just tried finding reference to a cap on BD and PPD and couldn't find one (RMFRP).    Alertness/Sense Ambush cap at Rank 31.   It doesn't appear BD/PPD have any cap.

[yammahoper]

If you look closely at RMFRP body dev progression total hits at 40 ranks and racial max hits in RM2, you will see they are very simular.  Also, reading the progression rules gave me the idea body dev and spell point dev are limited to 30 ranks.  I even pulled out my old SUC and compared the maximum pp per race table that was in it, and found many close simularities.

Perhaps it seemed intuitive to me because I have played RM for so long, or rather I was just reading into it and assumed a whole lot

lynn

[markc]

For Adrenal Defense though, the RMSS rank bonus is higher then in RM2 so AD is more powerful in RMSS unless you use the Martial Arts Companion and % activity.

I just tried finding reference to a cap on BD and PPD and couldn't find one (RMFRP).    Alertness/Sense Ambush cap at Rank 31.   It doesn't appear BD/PPD have any cap.

 I use RMSS and the MAC so IMO AD is not as powerful. But I remeber the guy who reintroduced me to RM2 saying AD had a big impact on his game so he took some steps to restrict it.
MDC 

[rboleyn]

If you look closely at RMFRP body dev progression total hits at 40 ranks and racial max hits in RM2, you will see they are very simular.  Also, reading the progression rules gave me the idea body dev and spell point dev are limited to 30 ranks.  I even pulled out my old SUC and compared the maximum pp per race table that was in it, and found many close simularities.

IIRC, the rule of thumb for conversion was that 30 ranks of RMSS Body Development was equal to the RM2 max hits. The progression above 30 ranks is always 1 hit/rank, but you can go as high as you like.

there's certainly no limit to PPDev.