Topic: How do you manage some spells? (ask here)

[Dark Schneider]

This topic could be used for everyone that have doubts about a spell and how to use it.

we can use the following format to specify the spell, so it can be easily viewed when scrolling down the topic.

|---------------|
| SPELL: firewall |
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I open this with the 'firewall' spell, it is 'E' type so there is not RR, but do you allow to cast in a place coincident with a resistant entity (one that could resist with a RR)?. So how do you manage it?, we have some possibilities:

- Demand RRs for any resistant entity in the area of effect, and if anyone success then the spell fails.
- Don't allow to cast the spell in a place where there are resistant entities.
- You allow to cast it, as it is 'E' type there is not RR and then all in the area of effect suffer the 'A' heat critical.

I suppose that all of us are agree that this is not problem for the 'fire law' level 7 spell 'summon flames' (I think in english this is the name), because it takes 1 complete round to create the cube of flames so it can be easily evaded if you can move (obviously this spell is for other uses). This spell can be casted with no limit.

[yammahoper]

There are several options.  The easiest would be to use an RR only to see if the target moves out f the way before the wall forms, as it is only 1' thick.

Or use the targeting skill.

lynn

[markc]

I think thier is a ruleing that all wall spells cannot be cast if thier is an opposing object in the way. So the firewall spell would fail.
MDC

[Arioch]

I simply don't allow to cast it in a space occupied by someone, but you can place it right in front of him!

[yammahoper]

If a wall is solid, that makes good sense.  But for walls of wind, fire, light or cold, who cares if there is anything there?  Especially something that can move, and if it is a firewall, will move as soon as possible.

All space is occupied unless it is a vacuum.  A little jurisprudence is sometimes called for by GM's.  The rules cannot cover it all.

lynn

[markc]

If a wall is solid, that makes good sense.  But for walls of wind, fire, light or cold, who cares if there is anything there?  Especially something that can move, and if it is a firewall, will move as soon as possible.

All space is occupied unless it is a vacuum.  A little jurisprudence is sometimes called for by GM's.  The rules cannot cover it all.

lynn

 I think the problem is the auto crit or damage if the person is inside the wall.
MDC

[yammahoper]

Well, they get an RR to avoid it.  Perhaps for some a mnv would be more appropriate.  Or use of other skills.

lynn

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Persons passing through a wall do not receive a RR to avoid the damage.

If somebody asked for an official ruling, I would have to give one of two answers

1) Wall can be cast where person is standing, but that person can move off of that location quite easily as the wall forms (i.e. it does not form instantaneously) -- perhaps consider it to be a mandatory 10% activity movement, and the person does NOT take damage from the wall in this manner.

or

2) Since the wall is not a physical attack like a bolt or ball, and since it is not a RR based attack, the wall spell should most likely be dual classed as both Elemental and Utility, and thus not allowed to be cast on a person on a location where a person is without that person's permission.

I would be more likely to to with the first potential ruling though...

[Dark Schneider]

I think the best is not to allow to cast the spell on an not free location.

[Ecthelion]

IIRC the current (RMFRP) Spell Law also explicitly states that e.g. a Fire Wall cannot be cast on a non-free location i.e. directly on a person.

[yammahoper]

I do not think the intent is to cast the spell on a person, but on an area the person is standing in/sleepiing in/etc.  The person would have time to move, as it takes at least several seconds for the wall to form, but the spell will not move with the person because they are not the target...and it is a wall, of course.

lynn

[Marc R]

It's one of those iffy calls. . .I'd go with Tim's 1 above.

It's easy to avoid, I'd even consider it "casual" non activity movement. (Wall is not thick enough to constitute 10% move for any but the slowest entity). . .I would force the combatant to select which side of the wall they choose to place themselves on with their casual step off the hot spot.

OTOH if you're chained to the wall and I choose to fire wall you while my henchmen fetch the BBQ sauce, you'd get cooked. . . .Then again, if I ordered my henchman to use the BBQ forks on you, I'd call that one of those "Medium moving maneuver to kill helpless target" results.

I have no problem with utility spells being almost unstoppably fatal when used in a really smart way under the right conditions.

Another example of that kind of U effect:

5 orcs chase melvin the magician up the narrow stairs of the tower to the roof, getting there ahead of the orcs, melvin finds the top of the tower a wrecked ruin of rubble. . .200# Melvin uses multiple Teleport spells to shift large 100-200# chunks of rubble so they fall down the stairs.

Now, in a narrow stairwell, the orcs are pulp unless there's some sort of freakish luck. . .no place to run, no place to hide. . .perhaps a roll to see if a rubble chunk jams in the stairwell or bounds overhead by freak chance.

I'd let a 101 ST fighter toss those same rocks down the stairs, so I have no problem with a mage doing it with magic.

[markc]

 I agree that the problem is with a taregt that cannot move out of the way for what ever reason. I think it is easyest if you have the same rule for walls as you do for the pit spells. ie you cannot open a pit if someone is above it and you cannot cast wall spells if an unapproved target is in the way.
 Now that said using a differnt iniatiative system can solve a lot of those problems. When does the spell go off? Is the target in the area of effect or not? But the biggest problem is with targets that for whatever reason unable to get out of the area of effect.
 Another option is using a scaling style with walls spells with something like if you have 5 ranks above the spell the spell wiil push targets out of the way, if you have 10 ranks above the spell then you can have it form over targets.
MDC

[yammahoper]

You can't cast a pit spell if someone is above it?  Why?  Do they stop the earth from disapearing?

Weird man, weird

lynn

[ictus]

I think of it this way

If you cat a fire wall on an area then it creates a wal of fire that those passing through take the effect of as it is after all a wall of fire.

However if there is someone their in the area it is cast their aura (call it what you will) can effect or disrupt the spell so they get a RR and if they succeed they disrupt the spell and stop it forming.

same with pit or any similar spell (and at a push utility spells but heavily weighted)

[markc]

You can't cast a pit spell if someone is above it?  Why?  Do they stop the earth from disapearing?

Weird man, weird

lynn

 I do not remember the book right now but I think it was the Essence Comp that ironed out these rules. I have not been playing RM for a time so the books and rulings are not freash in my system.

MDC

Edit,
 I do not know but I think the pit spell is a U spell so it cannot be used as an attack spell. But that is off the top of my head.

MDC

[yammahoper]

It may be a U spell...but it is not being cast on a target that can resist, unless it was cast on warded floors or earth.

Perhaps i am far more permissive than I even imagined

lynn

[mocking bird]

It might also depend on how much your 'aura area' covers for resisting things.  For example if you are riding on a horse and a spell is cast on the saddle, do you use the horse's, the character's or the saddle's level for determinging the RR?

[Marc R]

I think the book rule actually covers that as "Whichever is best" in instances where your personal save vs a gear save are on the line. In my opinion that would mean that if two being's auras cover one object, the RR would be the best of mount, rider or saddle.

If it's a mithril plated ancient arcane saddle of ridership +50 it might innately resist at a higher level than the rider or mount.

if Joe the 3rd level fighter is perched in a normal leather saddle on his 20th level sea dragon mount, a spell on the saddle would RR as a 20th level sea dragon.

If it's normal leather and joe is 20th level on a 3rd level horse, then joe's RR applies.

I'd think the "You may just move" is the best option, otherwise, if it's "You may not in someone's space". . .you could play games like trying to jump yourself into the way of U spells to block them. (I'd call that making yourself "Willing" if a player tried it.)

[mocking bird]

Bad example with the horse & saddle.  What I was trying to convey is how far does your RR aura extend?  Depending on how far, it could affect the ground beneath your feet or the air above your head.  Would it apply to a chair you are sitting on or wall you are touching?