Topic: RR Modifiers when SPELLS have to make RRs

[doktorjoy]

Example Situation:

A level 17 priest has several spells cast on him, including Resistance III (+15 to RR), Shield, Aura of Resistance, Aura of Power. The Priest has a base RR vs channeling of 20, and +10 vs Channeling item. So, his RR vs Channeling is now 20 + 10 + 15 (Resistance III) + 15 (Aura of Resistance), i.e. +60.

Another caster throws a Dispel Channeling I spell at this priest. The dispeller is level 10.

Dispel Channeling I reads: "Any active [channeling] spell on the target must make an RR (use the caster's level as the spell level) or be dispelled."

Aura of Power reads: "All spell or spell-effects entereing the area of effect must make an RR..."

Questions:

1/ Does the Dispel Magic have to make an RR against the Aura of Power? If it fails, does that mean that none of the target's spells have to make an RR as they're within the Aura of Power AE? My hunch here is that the two spells must do a plain level vs level fight out as described in RMSS and RMFRP on conflicting spells. Your thoughts?

2/ When spells make an RR, what bonuses do they get, if any? My players argue that the spells should get the same RR mod as the person they're cast on. So, in this case the priest has a +60 vs Chan modifier, so spells resist the Dispel at +60? I don't agree with this. I believe that the spells should not get modifiers for these resist rolls.

3/ Dispel Channeling I is a Force spell, indicating a BAR is made. SO, this suggests the spells resisting the Dispel are likely to end up with penalties (assuming a half-decent BAR). My players feel that this makes it too easy to dispel spells. Im the example above, the level 10 priest has a Spell List Skill Total of +19, so adds 19 to his BAR. On an average roll of 50, the total BAR is 69, giving a -25 RR penalty for channeling against 'Other'. The spells, cast at level 17, have to make a basic roll of 38 to resist, but with that average -25 RR penalty, they each need to roll 63 or more.

My players point out that with a single cast of an 8th level spell, a 10th level caster can dispel, on average, about 2 in 3 spells cast by a level 17 caster. I have to agree with them that this does seem to make dispelling seem a little easy.

At the same time, we play a magic-poor campaign (there are few spellcasters in the world), so more often than not the players do NOT meet enemies capable of dispelling them, so have come to take their defensive spells for granted and didn't really like it when the enemy dispeller started making a big change to the dynamics of that particular fight...

[David Johansen]

Personally, I like dispelling to be easy so I just go spell on spell.  The seventeenth level caster will have lots of PPs left when the eighth level caster starts to run out.

[Arioch]

1) Yes, I would also solve the situation with the "conflicting spells" rules.
2) No, I would not give any bonus to spells RRs.
3) Since spells do not get bonus to their RRs I would not give them penalties either. So no BAR roll, plain RR between spells, with no modifiers.

Certainly a low-level caster could dispel multiple spells on a high-level character, but he has to be quite lucky! And, while he is busy dispelling his defenses, the cleric has all the time to cast an absolution on him... 

[yammahoper]

I normally go level versus level, but if the spell is active on the caster, then bonus to RR is 3x Realm stat while penalty is 3x casters realm stat.  For most NPC's, I assume a realm stat mod of +8.

lynn

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The following is solely my personal opinion...

Example Situation:

A level 17 priest has several spells cast on him, including Resistance III (+15 to RR), Shield, Aura of Resistance, Aura of Power. The Priest has a base RR vs channeling of 20, and +10 vs Channeling item. So, his RR vs Channeling is now 20 + 10 + 15 (Resistance III) + 15 (Aura of Resistance), i.e. +60.

Another caster throws a Dispel Channeling I spell at this priest. The dispeller is level 10.

Dispel Channeling I reads: "Any active [channeling] spell on the target must make an RR (use the caster's level as the spell level) or be dispelled."

Aura of Power reads: "All spell or spell-effects entereing the area of effect must make an RR..."

Umm... you do realize that the Aura of Power spell would AND should affect all other spells that are currently on the caster as well.

Also, I would not allow multiple spells of the same effect (2 different spells giving bonus to the same thing?? I would use the highest one, and leave it there).

Questions:

1/ Does the Dispel Magic have to make an RR against the Aura of Power? If it fails, does that mean that none of the target's spells have to make an RR as they're within the Aura of Power AE? My hunch here is that the two spells must do a plain level vs level fight out as described in RMSS and RMFRP on conflicting spells. Your thoughts?

Yes, the Dispell has to make a RR against the Aura of Power, so does every single spell that takes effect within the area of effect of the Aura of Power, including other spells by the person who cast the Aura. His own spells have to make a RR to affect him when that spell is up, and any spells already active should also have to make a RR or be dispelled as well.

2/ When spells make an RR, what bonuses do they get, if any? My players argue that the spells should get the same RR mod as the person they're cast on. So, in this case the priest has a +60 vs Chan modifier, so spells resist the Dispel at +60? I don't agree with this. I believe that the spells should not get modifiers for these resist rolls.

If it is on a person, it should get that person's RR bonuses.

3/ Dispel Channeling I is a Force spell, indicating a BAR is made. SO, this suggests the spells resisting the Dispel are likely to end up with penalties (assuming a half-decent BAR). My players feel that this makes it too easy to dispel spells. Im the example above, the level 10 priest has a Spell List Skill Total of +19, so adds 19 to his BAR. On an average roll of 50, the total BAR is 69, giving a -25 RR penalty for channeling against 'Other'. The spells, cast at level 17, have to make a basic roll of 38 to resist, but with that average -25 RR penalty, they each need to roll 63 or more.

Yes, the BAR adjustments count. It is much easier to dispell a spell on an item than on a person, Spells on a person get that person's RR bonuses, so that works out more evenly.

My players point out that with a single cast of an 8th level spell, a 10th level caster can dispel, on average, about 2 in 3 spells cast by a level 17 caster. I have to agree with them that this does seem to make dispelling seem a little easy.

Are you counting in the RR bonus of the target?

At the same time, we play a magic-poor campaign (there are few spellcasters in the world), so more often than not the players do NOT meet enemies capable of dispelling them, so have come to take their defensive spells for granted and didn't really like it when the enemy dispeller started making a big change to the dynamics of that particular fight...

Magic poor? And that priest has all of those spells on him at once?

[doktorjoy]

Hmmm. Aura of Power states that "All spells or spell effects *entering* the radius must make an RR".

I infer from this that spells that are already cast on the caster won't be affected by it. It's not a Dispel. The priest in question casts Aura of Power last. Also, the radius is 10' out. So, if a priest later needs to cast a heal on himself, that's fine.

If you think that the Dispel attacks with a BAR, then I agree that the spells making the RRs to survive should get some bonuses, but I'm not sure you can use the Target's Realm Bonus.

Say, a Priest with Realm bonus +10 (to vsChan bonus of +30) casts a spell on somebody else - an Arms class character with no realm bonus. If that spell has to RR against a Dispel, does it use the RR bonus of the fighter it's on, or the RR bonus of the gifted Priest who cast it in the first place.

As for Aura of Resistance not stacking with Resistance III, that's occurred to me. But, the rules list clearly what Resistance III does NOT stack with, and Aura of Resistance isn't mentioned (albeit it's in a different book).

Magic Poor, in my parlance (which I accept only I give any credence to), means *few* individuals are magic-users. So they're few and far between, but still potent.

Okay, so far, I have one view which says no BAR and no RR modifiers, and another view which says BAR and RR modifiers.

I'm actually happy with either, except the first is far simpler, and I'm still looking for a way of determining *what* RR modifiers the spells get in the latter method.

[Arioch]

Hmmm. Aura of Power states that "All spells or spell effects *entering* the radius must make an RR".

I infer from this that spells that are already cast on the caster won't be affected by it. It's not a Dispel. The priest in question casts Aura of Power last. Also, the radius is 10' out. So, if a priest later needs to cast a heal on himself, that's fine.

The radius is centered on the caster (range: Self) and that means that the area of effect includes him, too. So I agree that any spell casted in the area of effect (even spells casted by the priest) must resist or be cancelled. Spell already active on him are fine, but if he later needs to heal himself all healing spells must do a RR or be cancelled.

As for Aura of Resistance not stacking with Resistance III, that's occurred to me. But, the rules list clearly what Resistance III does NOT stack with, and Aura of Resistance isn't mentioned (albeit it's in a different book).

In SL it's stated that spells with the same name cannot be active on the same target at the same time: so I would not let Resistance and Aura of Resistance stack too, since they're basically the same spell.

[Dark Schneider]

Make a BAR attack and apply the modifier, I like a BAR because it uses the attacker skill and others, as distance, etc.

Spells don't use RR modifier because it only applies to character, but the character is not resisting himself. But you can (or must) use the spells caster level as resistance level.

[yammahoper]

I would only use realm stat mod for spells active ON the caster.  Spells caste on others recieve no bonus.

lynn

[pastaav]

1/ Does the Dispel Magic have to make an RR against the Aura of Power? If it fails, does that mean that none of the target's spells have to make an RR as they're within the Aura of Power AE? My hunch here is that the two spells must do a plain level vs level fight out as described in RMSS and RMFRP on conflicting spells. Your thoughts?

My thought is that dispel magic is entering the aura and that a RR needs to be done. If the aura succeed the Dispel Magic spell will fail and can not effect the other spells. Yet if the aura is defeated it is dispelled and the other spells must defend against the dispelling.

On the other hand you could argue that the aura spell should not effect the casters own spells since they are not entering the aura but are created inside the aura. Same applies to spells leaving the aura...these could be argued to not be distrurbed by the aura since they are leaving the aura and not entering.

Thirdly remember that Resistance III requires concentration if the target is moving...so you can't combine it with spell casting and movement. Typical use is that the cleric cast it at the start of combat and then hope his comrades can protect him from melee as he uses his spells to attack the opponents.

2/ When spells make an RR, what bonuses do they get, if any? My players argue that the spells should get the same RR mod as the person they're cast on. So, in this case the priest has a +60 vs Chan modifier, so spells resist the Dispel at +60? I don't agree with this. I believe that the spells should not get modifiers for these resist rolls.

I would say they get the bonus. The aura of the target empower the spells on his person and make them harder to resist.

3/ Dispel Channeling I is a Force spell, indicating a BAR is made. SO, this suggests the spells resisting the Dispel are likely to end up with penalties (assuming a half-decent BAR). My players feel that this makes it too easy to dispel spells. Im the example above, the level 10 priest has a Spell List Skill Total of +19, so adds 19 to his BAR. On an average roll of 50, the total BAR is 69, giving a -25 RR penalty for channeling against 'Other'. The spells, cast at level 17, have to make a basic roll of 38 to resist, but with that average -25 RR penalty, they each need to roll 63 or more.

I would make the BAR...it is what gives the dispel spell a fighting chance to overcome the defenders RR bonus.

[doktorjoy]

Thirdly remember that Resistance III requires concentration if the target is moving...so you can't combine it with spell casting and movement.

You sure? According to my copies of Spell Law, Resistance III (at least, the one on Protections base list), is 1 min/level duration, no concentration required.

[pastaav]

Thirdly remember that Resistance III requires concentration if the target is moving...so you can't combine it with spell casting and movement.

You sure? According to my copies of Spell Law, Resistance III (at least, the one on Protections base list), is 1 min/level duration, no concentration required.

Well...in my spelllaw I read the specification for Resistance I and see:
*if stationary object, duration 10 minute /level, is dispelled if the target is moved
*if moving object. duration is as long as caster concetrate
*if target is caster the duration is 1 minute per level

I suppose you could decide that the first two rules does not apply if the third one is true.

Personally I like the idea of the cleric locked in magical combat with the enemy, a classical scene from movies. IMHO this limitation does rather nice balance how many instanteus spells that clerics have.