Topic: Race vs Culture

[Sorloc]

The campaign I am about to start has "Night Elves" which are a darker skinned variety that live underground. They are not 'evil' like the Drow, but do have a more cranky attitude to them (I described it as the inhabitants of the world attributing it to their proximity to the Dwarves )

To me, this is exactly what I mean.  I have long detested the notion that ALL of ANY race (Drow, Orcs, Klingons, whatever) are ALL evil, or ALL sneaky and underhanded (Hobbits, Ferengi) or ALL good and wise (Elves, Vorlons).

In my world, I have a nation of beings physiologically the same as Drow, but sociologically different.  They're extremely lawful, have a bureaucratic government, are quintessential traders, and practice a benevolent slavery (and a not-so benevolent eugenics program on 'inferior' races).  However, I leave room for groups within this society for not just one, but many to disagree or even oppose some or all of these social conventions.  There's even antisocial anrchists among them.  It's the nature of things...

I think it would be interesting to have submissions on potential cultures for each race  - like this one, the 'dark-skinned Elf' (which does not make evolutionary sense for an underground race - their skin would not need melanin, UV rays being somewhat rare in caverns...)

Then some sample societies:
DnD's Drow, living in groups of 1-6 in underground treasure-filled complexes with 500 Orcs and 10000 goblins,
Cory's Night Elves, living underground...
Sorloc's Dylari, living in, on, and under mountains...

If a sample society is produced by a few people for each racial type, there would be quite a wealth of stuff to go on.

I've got a desert Lizardman culture and a jungle Lizardman culture - physically identical, but ideolodically different...

[Langthorne]

Look at the wealth of different real human cultures there have been over the ages.

Maybe some kind of matrix with races, environments, technology levels (what else?) plugged in...and see what people come up with.

[vroomfogle]

The campaign I am about to start has "Night Elves" which are a darker skinned variety that live underground. They are not 'evil' like the Drow, but do have a more cranky attitude to them (I described it as the inhabitants of the world attributing it to their proximity to the Dwarves )

I've not quite understood the proliferation in fantasy of underground races to be darker skinned.  Would they not be light skinned, perhaps even albino?

[Cory Magel]

I've not quite understood the proliferation in fantasy of underground races to be darker skinned.  Would they not be light skinned, perhaps even albino?

One logical reason...

Elves are almost always described as "Fair skinned" in most games. It seems a little trivial to try and differentiate them as "Really fair skinned."  Now, I could go and change all the descriptions in the existing RMSS material and make the subterrainian ones the fair skinned ones... but I just don't want to. Laziness/Conveinence.

One or two in-game reasons...

The are supposed to be the elven race that lives underground along side some potentially nasty critters and being able to blend in with your surroundings (i.e. darkness) is a nice evolutionary feature.
or...
There is potentially something about the caves they live in that has caused the trait... a chemical reaction or something.

A lame reason...

Cause that's how it's always been.

And... last, but not least, a "neener-neener" reason.

Because we're talking about a dang immortal humanoid with pointy ears that has darkvision and can cast spells. I don't need to have a 'realistic' reason.

Besides, doesn't "Night Elf" or "Dark Elf" or "Shadow Elf" sound a lot cooler then "Albino Elf"

[markc]

  It could be from some genetic trait or some source of radation in the earth. But do I have a good reason, no.

MDC

[vroomfogle]

Because we're talking about a dang immortal humanoid with pointy ears that has darkvision and can cast spells. I don't need to have a 'realistic' reason.

That's a good reason.    The blending in with your surroundings is actually pretty good too though.

Besides, doesn't "Night Elf" or "Dark Elf" or "Shadow Elf" sound a lot cooler then "Albino Elf"

Now that you put it that way....no.   Albino Elf sounds pretty cool!

[pemerton]

That all depends upon how far back in their history they moved from one type of local to another. Genetic changes take extremely long amounts of time to percolate through an entire race in such a fashion that it becomes standard.

I think it would be interesting to have submissions on potential cultures for each race  - like this one, the 'dark-skinned Elf' (which does not make evolutionary sense for an underground race - their skin would not need melanin, UV rays being somewhat rare in caverns...)

I've not quite understood the proliferation in fantasy of underground races to be darker skinned.  Would they not be light skinned, perhaps even albino?

<snip>

The are supposed to be the elven race that lives underground along side some potentially nasty critters and being able to blend in with your surroundings (i.e. darkness) is a nice evolutionary feature.
or...
There is potentially something about the caves they live in that has caused the trait... a chemical reaction or something.

In a fantasy RPG with active gods - and particularly when we're talking about such magical beings as Dark Elves and such - wouldn't the proper in-game explanation refer to magical or mythic reasons, rather than to scientific ones?

Or do most GMs assume that chemsitry and evolutionary biology are true in-game, meaning that the in-game beliefs of alchemists, priests etc about the nature of substances, and living things, and the way they came to be, are false?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally, I presume that normal physics and evolutionary biology and chemistry are the norm for any setting. And that there are outside forces (i.e. magic) that can alter things from time to time.

For example, perhaps there is a magical ore that emits UV radiation somehow. Perhaps that gives the race its high melanin content. Perhaps it gives them some odd vision capabilities as well.

As for for things like in-game beliefs, some would be true and some would be false. It would depend upon the belief and the setting, and other factors.

The point is that not everything is true and not everything is false. it all depends upon the setting.

As I state above, I start with real life science being true and then deviate from there as needed...

[Cory Magel]

In a fantasy RPG with active gods - and particularly when we're talking about such magical beings as Dark Elves and such - wouldn't the proper in-game explanation refer to magical or mythic reasons, rather than to scientific ones?

Or do most GMs assume that chemsitry and evolutionary biology are true in-game, meaning that the in-game beliefs of alchemists, priests etc about the nature of substances, and living things, and the way they came to be, are false?

Well "Because their Deity made them that way" or "It's magic" requires no logical or scientific explanation. In which case you should be quoting my last comment in the post you quoted from me: "Because we're talking about a dang immortal humanoid with pointy ears that has darkvision and can cast spells. I don't need to have a 'realistic' reason."

You also seem to imply that "Chemistry" and "Alchemy" are at odds with one another. Aren't they really the same thing with the "Alchemist" merely having a fantasy slant to it? Of course, we could get into what the definition of 'scientific' in a fantasy setting is too. Magic would merely be one of them when it comes down to it, wouldn't it? Again, merely with a fantasy slant to it (possibly a heavy one at that).

Still, the 'scientific' explanations that I gave as a result of the question were because of the manner in which the question was asked. I don't think he was asking for a "because I said so" answer.

[pemerton]

Well "Because their Deity made them that way" or "It's magic" requires no logical or scientific explanation. In which case you should be quoting my last comment in the post you quoted from me: "Because we're talking about a dang immortal humanoid with pointy ears that has darkvision and can cast spells. I don't need to have a 'realistic' reason."

Not scientific, no, but there can still be better or worse (and, if you like, more or less logical or consistent) mythical or magical explanations.

You also seem to imply that "Chemistry" and "Alchemy" are at odds with one another. Aren't they really the same thing with the "Alchemist" merely having a fantasy slant to it?

Well, alchemists think they can "transmute the elements" without access to a nuclear reactor. If this is true in-game, then presumably real-world chemistry and physics are false (or at best approximately true).

[Cory Magel]

Not scientific, no, but there can still be better or worse (and, if you like, more or less logical or consistent) mythical or magical explanations.

You've lost me. Better or worse what? Mythical or magical explainations? They can explain it however they want. I said as much already. Someone was merely asking for various explainations.

Well, alchemists think they can "transmute the elements" without access to a nuclear reactor. If this is true in-game, then presumably real-world chemistry and physics are false (or at best approximately true).

A) Why would it automatically make real world chemistry and physics false? and B) Why does it matter even if it does?

I don't get why you're worried about it either way.

[markc]

Cory,
  In my game I use magic to bend the rules of chemistry and physics but the basics of science still apply. ie magic is used to alter the thermodynamic laws to make things possible. Magic is essentaly a catalist lowering the thermodynamic energy required for a reaction to procede or provides a container where the laws of physics can be altered beyond the range of techonlogy.
 
  I can think of one elven race seeing the light of thier god and being bleached out adn thier other not seeing this light keep thier natural color of being darker.
  As to why, I do not know but in life we have whites, blacks, ect and I think it just seamed to make sence to the creaters of the dark elves that they would be dark as the other elves were described as fair complection.

MDC

[Cory Magel]

I think too much is being read into some of the explanations given. Vroom asked "I've not quite understood the proliferation in fantasy of underground races to be darker skinned.  Would they not be light skinned, perhaps even albino?" and a few of us gave some possible explainations.

[markc]

  I think Pale Elves sound nasty. Maybe because of the pale horseman.

MDC

[markc]

  Now that I think about it The Shadows of Darkness souce book has some spell lists for breeding genetic traits and I als think thier are some in the Spell Users Comp.

MDC

[pemerton]

Not scientific, no, but there can still be better or worse (and, if you like, more or less logical or consistent) mythical or magical explanations.

You've lost me. Better or worse what? Mythical or magical explainations? They can explain it however they want. I said as much already. Someone was merely asking for various explainations.

I was just saying something which I think is obvious - that if the explanation is magical or mythical, it doesn't follow that "anything goes". Those explanations can still be better or worse, and more or less logical, even if they're not scientific.

Well, alchemists think they can "transmute the elements" without access to a nuclear reactor. If this is true in-game, then presumably real-world chemistry and physics are false (or at best approximately true).

A) Why would it automatically make real world chemistry and physics false? and B) Why does it matter even if it does?

Well, by definition no real-world chemical process can transmute an element - that would be a nuclear reaction. So if gameworld alchemists are anything like actual historical alchemists were - which is to say, are not dabblilng in nuclear physics but chemistry - than their belief that they can transmute the elements through their techniques would be false. Conversely, if its true, then real-world chemistry and physics are either false, or at least not the whole story (ie at best approximately true).

This is no different from a sci-fi game which permits FTL travel - in such a game, real world (relativistic) physics is at best approximately true.

I don't get why you're worried about it either way.

I'm not worried, just curious. I was just interested that nearly all the answers given to Vroom's question, and Rasyr's response to the earlier question, were eveolutionary biological ones, in terms of adaptive advantage of certain traits given a certain niche. It struck me as an odd sort of explanation for a fantasy world, and so I wondered about people's approach to science in their games.

[markc]

pemerton,
  I just did some research for a person on the RMSS boad you should take a look at RM2 Alc Comp as they have some interesting stuff inside on historical alchemey and what they ment by it in the past.

MDC

[Cory Magel]

I was just saying something which I think is obvious - that if the explanation is magical or mythical, it doesn't follow that "anything goes". Those explanations can still be better or worse, and more or less logical, even if they're not scientific.

You mentioned something about a deity possibly being the cause of something however, which does pretty much mean just about anything goes depending on the power of gods in a given persons world. If a deity did it, I don't really need any better explanation.

Well, by definition no real-world chemical process can transmute an element - that would be a nuclear reaction. So if gameworld alchemists are anything like actual historical alchemists were - which is to say, are not dabblilng in nuclear physics but chemistry - than their belief that they can transmute the elements through their techniques would be false. Conversely, if its true, then real-world chemistry and physics are either false, or at least not the whole story (ie at best approximately true).

How do you know chemistry and physics will never be able to accomplish such a thing? No real-world process can transmute an element that we know of.  Besides, we are talking fantasy. If I create a 'magician' that deals with something like, say, radiation... who's to say what's no possible? Or better yet, the word "Magic" can transcend any "real-world" belief.

I'm not worried, just curious. I was just interested that nearly all the answers given to Vroom's question, and Rasyr's response to the earlier question, were eveolutionary biological ones, in terms of adaptive advantage of certain traits given a certain niche. It struck me as an odd sort of explanation for a fantasy world, and so I wondered about people's approach to science in their games.

As I explained earlier, he was asking his question in such a manner that he was curious about a evolutionary/biological answer. And also, that a 'mystical' or 'godly' one is not hard to create at all. "It's magic" or "God did it" does not really require a plausible explanation.

[vroomfogle]

As I explained earlier, he was asking his question in such a manner that he was curious about a evolutionary/biological answer. And also, that a 'mystical' or 'godly' one is not hard to create at all. "It's magic" or "God did it" does not really require a plausible explanation.

I was definitely looking at it from a scientific standpoint, as any fantasy/magic/supernatural argument is obviously easy to come up with.

[pemerton]

You mentioned something about a deity possibly being the cause of something however, which does pretty much mean just about anything goes depending on the power of gods in a given persons world. If a deity did it, I don't really need any better explanation.

<snip>

"It's magic" or "God did it" does not really require a plausible explanation.

I was definitely looking at it from a scientific standpoint, as any fantasy/magic/supernatural argument is obviously easy to come up with.

I think it can sometimes be quite hard to come up with good mythological and magical explanations. I think one reason why Glorantha is popular with so many people is that it has really good mythological explanations. Whereas Forgotten Realms, to mention another popular gameworld, in my experience has consistently shallow and unpersuasive mythology.