Topic: Character Classes from RMCoI to RMC0VII

[KPadish]

Character Classes in RMCoI to RMC0VII
I'm starting a new game and am thinking of allowing players to pick character classes from the companions.  I know there is a thread about balance with the Rune Master and Magus and I'd stay away from Chaos Lord but which other classes greatly tip the balance?  If there are specific spells or spell lists, what and why would you be hesitant about having players use them?

I have no problem modifying the lists or specific spells but would like to do that before the players pick characters.  For example, with the Sigal of pain spell, I might reduce radius and damage and make it such that only 1 such sigal can be active at a time. 

I'm looking forward to this discussion.

[Hurin]

One class that is often criticised for being overpowered is the Warrior Mage. The list with their elemental attacks basically takes many of the best spells from all the Magician base lists; it is kind of a greatest hits. I recommend requiring the Warrior Mage to choose a single element list from the Elemental Companion (if you have that) instead. Some people also feel the class as a whole is overpowered, since it can wear armor and fight like a fighter while also casting like a caster with fly, invisibility, etc. Personally, though, if you consider how many development points the class has to pay for everything (including Transcend Armor), I find it ok in terms of balance.

The Druid Base Druidstaff lets the Druid hit hard with a quarterstaff (though again it might be more balanced if you consider how much the Druid has to spend to be good with Thrown and/or melee). But the main power of that list is that it allows the Druid to turn his staff into a powerful multiplier/adder, especially if he can cast spells higher than his level. Personally, I love this list, so I would just tone it down.

I've seen a few people criticize the Force Mage, but I never had problems with it.

[Amano]

The Staff lists are very powerful, so you might want to look at Wizards and Druids too.

[Peter R]

The Elemental Warrior from the Combat Companion was intended to be a more balanced version of the Warrior Mage.

[Hurin]

The Elemental Warrior from the Combat Companion was intended to be a more balanced version of the Warrior Mage.

The Combat Companion is one of the few RM books I don't have. Can you tell me: does the Combat Companion version of the Warrior Mage get to throw firebolts and fireballs?

The RMSS Essence Companion is another book that revised the Warrior Mage spells, primarily by removing the ability to cast bolts and balls; the closest this new WM came to that was being able to throw his weapon. I can understand why this change was made, and I like some of the spells that allowed the new WM to enhance his weapon with elemental effects, but to me the change unfortunately changed the nature of the class. When I play a Warrior Mage, I want to be able to throw some elemental balls and bolts around.

This was why I suggested using the Elemental Companion for RM2, which toned down the elemental spells by giving appropriate levels for them and restricting each list to one specific element.

I do plan to rewrite the Warrior Mage spells for RMU, giving the WM more of that beloved blasting ability, but in the more balanced way of the Essence Companion. Sounds like perhaps we could have Warrior Mage week on the RMBlog soon? But give me at least a couple weeks to get my new spells ready if you do!

[Majyk]

Definitely use PEM if using the RM2:EC!

Such a sexy book with great rules and even greater explanations of multi-Elements and their magical theories behind them.
Fun read!

[Spectre771]

Definitely use PEM if using the RM2:EC!

Such a sexy book with great rules and even greater explanations of multi-Elements and their magical theories behind them.
Fun read!

"Sexy" doesn't even being to describe it!

Elemental Companion is the only magic allowed in our game world.  The explanation of the elemental realms and the interactions is so well written and so in depth.  The PEM (Proto-Elemental Material) adds another level of detail to the game when dealing with Elementals. 

I've added Alchemy Companion but no one has chosen any professions from it yet.

[Spectre771]

"Sexy" doesn't even being to describe it!

Elemental Companion is the only magic allowed in our game world.  The explanation of the elemental realms and the interactions is so well written and so in depth.  The PEM (Proto-Elemental Material) adds another level of detail to the game when dealing with Elementals. 

I've added Alchemy Companion but no one has chosen any professions from it yet.

* the time limit ran out while I was modifying the message.  My apologies for double posting.




Having done a little more delving into the spell lists for the Runemaster, I can see how they are very powerful, but that's under the assumption that the PC is prepped and ready for an attack.  I wonder how an unprepared Runemaster will do in battle.  If the PC is making an item, it will take longer to accomplish with more chances for failures during creation.  There are some balances built in, but it still comes down to what will fit in your world.

I would not start modifying spell lists and changing ranges on spells, etc.  @Ginger McMurray stated in another thread, if you have to rewrite rules to accommodate a profession, just say no and I agree completely.  If you allow a profession, allow all the spell lists that go with it.  Those specific lists are what defines the Profession (and skill costs). 

Parsing info found in other older threads, the later Companions were meant for higher powered campaigns anyway.  Players were going past level 20 and were looking for more power.  The Professions and spell lists are going to be more powerful.  Lord Level spells and stuff for level 50 PCs and some Space Master stuff. 

[Ginger McMurray]

@Ginger McMurray stated in another thread, if you have to rewrite rules to accommodate a profession, just say no and I agree completely.  If you allow a profession, allow all the spell lists that go with it.  Those specific lists are what defines the Profession (and skill costs). 

That's a tiny bit more than I meant. If someone really wanted to play a specific character class but there were only a couple of minor things wrong with it then I'd tweak those. For instance, if the warrior mage's elemental list is truly too strong I'd have them pick an Elemental Companion one as was suggested elsewhere.

It's the fundamental rules of the game that I won't modify just to reign in a specific class.

[technobabble66]

I’d also suggest the Noble Warrior can be exploited to be a slaughtering machine.

From memory, one of their lists gives extremely good/strong buffs to combat so you can do lots of attacks in a single round with extra damage added on, plus they somewhat cherry-pick some of the better lists from other classes.
Admittedly the background of the NW profession could be highly restrictive to temper this power, but depends on how the GM allows it to be played.
One of our more recent campaigns had four of us playing 2 Noble Warriors, 1 Warrior Mage, and 1 Paladin in a high-powered setting.
The NWs were clearly more effective  in combat because of the Haste effects combined with the other buffs they and paladins receive. (And the WM, with some easier access to directed spell items, was quite powerful in its own way, especially as we got to lvl 20+).
So the NW kinda seemed to be similar power to a paladin, but just better. The main difference being the undead/demonic/curse stuff a paladin can do - useless if you’re not facing undead or demons or curses though - and the healing. Healing was a huge strength of the paladin, but any serious damage still needed a proper healer. TBH, all 3 seemed significantly more powerful than most other classes.
So the WM was a bit like a mage/elemental focused version of a fighter/magic-user and the NW seemed like a combat(buff) focused version of a fighter/magic-user (or another way of looking at it could be basically like a much much better monk).
That’s at least how it worked out in the way we played RM for that campaign. YMMV.

[Thot]

Druids from RoCo I always struck me as insanely powerful. Or is it just me?

[Hurin]

Druids from RoCo I always struck me as insanely powerful. Or is it just me?

I dont think in their skill costs or anything, but I agree that their Druidstaff list could be seen as OP. It and Stone Mastery are so awesomely flavorful though, that I am rewriting (and rebalancing them) for RMU (houserules).

[intothatdarkness]

RoCo I druids could be, but the way to control that is to make them very rare. In my setting you had to come from a particular (and hard to obtain...we rolled for character origin) race and region to even be able to play a druid.

The thing to keep in mind is that most of these professions came from individual campaigns and were never intended to be used together. RoCo I is an exception just because of how the companion was written (most of it is, I think, material from a single setting and campaign). Companion III also felt that way to a degree. I never used all these Professions together: I went through, decided which ones made sense in my world, and then redid all the skill costs to line up with what we were doing. I'm not suggesting anyone go that far, but you really need to consider which professions WORK in your setting and then be ready to modify the ones you do use.

[Ginger McMurray]

I never had much of a problem with the Druidstaff list. It basically does a few things:

• Gives you extra spells per day: I don't really care about this. I'm fairly liberal with multipliers and adders anyway. I like players to be able to do the things they want their characters to do.
• Gives a bonus to hit and damage: weapon skills are expensive for a druid. You're not going to beat the fighter or rogue.
• Lets you throw the staff: see #2.

[Peter R]

The Elemental Warrior from the Combat Companion was intended to be a more balanced version of the Warrior Mage.

The Combat Companion is one of the few RM books I don't have. Can you tell me: does the Combat Companion version of the Warrior Mage get to throw firebolts and fireballs?

The RMSS Essence Companion is another book that revised the Warrior Mage spells, primarily by removing the ability to cast bolts and balls; the closest this new WM came to that was being able to throw his weapon. I can understand why this change was made, and I like some of the spells that allowed the new WM to enhance his weapon with elemental effects, but to me the change unfortunately changed the nature of the class. When I play a Warrior Mage, I want to be able to throw some elemental balls and bolts around.

This was why I suggested using the Elemental Companion for RM2, which toned down the elemental spells by giving appropriate levels for them and restricting each list to one specific element.

I do plan to rewrite the Warrior Mage spells for RMU, giving the WM more of that beloved blasting ability, but in the more balanced way of the Essence Companion. Sounds like perhaps we could have Warrior Mage week on the RMBlog soon? But give me at least a couple weeks to get my new spells ready if you do!

Neither and both.

They have a list for their element, that they choose. If you chose Fire as your element then at 3rd level you could cast Elemental Bolt (Fire) which is basically a Shockbolt with fire crits and a range of just 50'.

There is an enhanced bolt on every odd level (5th, 7th, etc.) up until 19th level. The 19th level version still looks like a firebolt but is using the Lightning Bolt table, but with a 50' range.

At 16th and 18th level they get Fireball spells, still capped to the shorter range.

None of the spells are quite as functional as the Magician Fireball/bolt spells. An Elemental Warrior with a chosen element of Fire could never cast Water Bolt, all the elemental effects are tied to the element chosen at creation.

[Malim]

No one mentioning arcmage?

[Hurin]

I never had much of a problem with the Druidstaff list. It basically does a few things:

• Gives you extra spells per day: I don't really care about this. I'm fairly liberal with multipliers and adders anyway. I like players to be able to do the things they want their characters to do.
• Gives a bonus to hit and damage: weapon skills are expensive for a druid. You're not going to beat the fighter or rogue.
• Lets you throw the staff: see #2.

Yes, you've eloquently summarized the exact reasons why our group never had any problems with Druidstaff. I just noted the issues some other groups have had; if for example you played in a low magic setting where multipliers were scarce, the ability to make a powerful one for yourself (and other bonus magical wooden weapons and shields for your party members) might cause issues.

@Peter: Thanks for the rundown of what the CC did to the WM. That actually sounds very similar to what I was thinking. Maybe I will buy the CC so i can check out those lists.

@Malim: Yes, the Archmage is another one often cited as OP. We never had much problem with it though: the spells are very powerful, but the development costs are high, and the class somewhat suffers from what DnD calls MAD: multiple attribute dependency, or in other words it needs good scores in many attributes to be most effective.

[Spectre771]

No one mentioning arcmage?

The Archmage has higher costs for a lot of skills.  Primarily, all spell lists are 2/* vs. 1/* for other pure spell users.   Also, with three Prime Reqs, all three have to be decent scores or the low one or two stats will lower the PPs available.  Power Point Development costs 3 DP vs. 2 DP for other Pure Spell users.  And the curious one for me, the PP Adders and PP Multipliers cost double for an Archmage.

They seem powerful at first, but there are some limiting factors.  I thought they were treated as Hybrid users, but they are Pure Spell users.  If someone wants a pure user, they're better off taking a different pure user for the cost benefits and Prime Reqs.  There is a list of options for GMs to consider if allowing an Archmage, and Option 1 apparently makes them very overpowering.  They do have the potential.

* - See Hurin's post above ^    (I was typing when his post appeared.