Author Topic: Rounds.... Length and actions  (Read 5978 times)

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Rounds.... Length and actions
« on: March 06, 2015, 03:23:12 PM »
OK, we've gone through this discussion a number of times, but I am specifically looking at 1 aspect.


Round length...
For me rounds need to be so short that movement during a round is almost meaningless, but that also means that with reload weapons or spellcasting the actions need to take longer than 1 round to do.  Unfortunately then when you mix in melee combat attacking every round, you certainly don't want to be a spellcaster trying to get off a spell when someone is nearby.  Even between RM and HARP we have a difference in how things are handled.


For my mind, I am thinking 1 round = 1 second.
Once in melee you can attack pretty much every round (even more frequently if you want to incur penalties), but movement to get into melee may put you at risk.
Spellcasting will almost always take 2 rounds to complete - except the basic cantrips.
Missile combat (unless multi-loading) is generally no more frequently than every other round.


Movement really becomes the issue.  If your companion is 20 feet away and needs help, it's going to take rounds of movement before you act in round 3.  I guess that's where the heroic warrior throws his long sword and has the blade suddenly appear protruding out his enemies chest.... 


Thoughts?

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Offline jdale

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 03:58:13 PM »
1 second seems too fast, unless you are dealing with modern firearms, there are too many rounds when you are doing nothing. That's what GURPS uses, and it does simplify movement, but especially if you are not using figures it seems unwieldy. 10 seconds (RM) is way too long, you can travel much too far in that time.

I favor 2-3 second rounds. We're doing 5 second rounds currently, which is also ok and less radical a change.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 04:05:45 PM »
One other aspect of why I like 1 second rounds - everything is considered simultaneous within the round which reduces the importance of initiative.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 04:18:01 PM »
I've been using a 2 second round for my firearms stuff for some time, and have found it quite workable. Of course, I also use phases to help both break out certain actions and simulate the "fire and maneuver" feel of most tactical encounters without the players having to necessarily think in those terms.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 04:49:35 PM »
I've said this before, but the amount of actual time in a round only really matters (mechanics wise) as a tool to limit the number of actions you can take.  From there it's all a matter of debates about how long individual actions typically take and if it's reasonable to assume you can pick a lock in the same amount of time you can fire bow and so on.  This is one of those areas where fun and balance both trump (trounce really) realism in my book.  I really couldn't care less if you told me a round was a second or a minute... it's how the round works that I'm interested in.

If using rounds, I personally like six seconds.  It's not so short that it makes one attack per round look like a martial artist on speed, but it's not so long that people who can't grasp round abstraction start to question 'what you're doing with all that time' and it expands into minutes and hours easily.

What I really prefer is a second-by-second system where the 'length of a round' is simply irrelevant.  But that's not all at the norm when it comes to all gamers as a whole.
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Offline pyrotech

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2015, 09:07:44 PM »
My greatest experience with 1 second rounds is in GURPS.  I didn't mind them, but you often got into situations where characters need to setup for the action they really want to do.  This caused my players a lot of issues.  They didn't like the idea of only being able to perform significant actions every two or three rounds when other characters in melee were doing things every round.  They also really didn't like the idea that it took two rounds to stand up from prone.  That complaint came up a lot actually.

But please oh please stay away from the Phoenix command "impulse" 1/10 second time unit!  I seem to remember some rules to determine how many impules it took a character to think of the action they are going to do.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 11:42:08 PM »
I think the point pyrotech makes is the most important one.  1 Round should, generally, equal 1 Action.  It really doesn't matter that firing an arrow and picking a lock could potentially take wildly different amounts of time if the players hate the idea of spending three rounds picking a lock while melee is occurring around them (and if anyone says "But that's realistic!" I'm going to reply with Fun > Balance > Realism.  That mantra needs to be tattooed on the inside of designers eye-lids with glow in the dark ink).

It may be realistic, hell it might even be balanced, but if it's no fun then you're going to lose customers.

Movement is the trickiest topic you've mentioned.  The "realistic" side of me wants to say that you should find the average walking, jogging, running, etc speeds of humans and make that your baseline movement based on how long your round is.  But... if that results in way more movement then you want, what do you do?  Assuming you have a problem there, I think in that case I'd limit movement in combat differently than I would outside of combat.  There are various mechanics you could use... simply slowing down movement while in melee, free attacks on people moving within melee to varying degrees, etc.

I suspect the place I would start with designing a new round is looking at movement and seeing if it's possible to create a round length that works well with 'realistic' movement speeds that I want, then try to balance out the actions vs. attacks issue in a, hopefully, simple to explain manner.  But, depending on how that pans out it might be 'unrealistic' to complete most actions in that amount of time.

More than likely you're going to have a problem no matter which way you go... so you're going to have to compromise somewhere.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2015, 06:25:50 AM »
Ok.  Great points all.
Movement and simultaneous actions are what got me thinking of 1 second rounds. Avg move in combat in 1 second I estimate at about 5' which is equal to closing and can allow move and attack in that 1 second - simultaneous.  If charging into combat depending on speed and armor maybe 15'.  In that case the only attack would be a charge attack.

As I am going for heroic I don't see an issue with getting an attack every second.  For archers they would need to sacrifice some accuracy to do it. Crossbows - forget it. Unless it is a special design.  Spell casting again can be sped up for a cost. 

As for picking locks during combat...  I see that as being a kind of % move.  Great skill (or luck) and you might get it in 1 round.  Most likely it takes more.  Think of a professional car thief with a slim Jim compared to the average person.  They slide that thing down, pull it up and open the door.  It would take me 3-5 minutes if I was lucky. Every lock has a different target and each try reduces the target and unless you fumble - then you would start again.  Combo locks would probably be a target for each digit/number.  This method keeps them rolling every round. 

Obviously some skills like trading don't lend themselves to a 1 second resolution - but that is unlikely to be executed during combat.

So what if non-combat rounds were 10 seconds and targets were halved during those?
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2015, 07:35:40 AM »
60 attacks a minute.  Ridiculous.  I recall my first rpg, TnT; a melee round was a minute.

Second by second melee is not "more realistic"  It is robotic.  It loses all sense of confusion during battle and humans circling each other, looking for an opening without getting punched in the mouth or run through.

It also throws all aspects of roleplaying out the window while remaining utterly ridiculous.

Tried it, wasfar to fake and GURPish for me. 
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2015, 07:55:07 AM »
HARP uses 2 second rounds or 30 attacks per minute so it is not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

The feeling I am going for is not long, drawn out duels. It is heroic high adventure.  If a battle lasts a minute then something is wrong.  I want players to envision movie combat.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2015, 10:02:44 AM »
My 2 Copper Pieces:

I have looked into GURPS and while the 1-second round/realism is tempting, I also found it constraining and actually unrealistic. The lack of time inhibits many things I believe, primarily being able to keep track of the fight going on around you, but also the full-defense action being able to be taken alongside the attack (or whatever) action. I think that you need a minimum of 2-seconds to all of that, with only those highly skilled and experienced fighters being able to go beyond that and add in extra attacks. (Or other actions, like maneuvering.) A longer combat round allows us to emulate different levels of ability better, as well, to reflect those times when highly-skilled combatants are fighting alongside (or against, or both) novices.

Also, I believe a little abstraction is needed to help the GM and players in using their imaginations to come together and describe how things went down in any particular combat round. With the uber-detailed 1-second combat round that is much, much harder to do, to the point of being nigh-impossible.

The very short combat round also requires re-training for the players (and GM) who are all used to doing something each and every round. This re-training, I feel, is unnecessary and too difficult to be bothered with. (I have tried it on a couple of groups now, comprised of both old-school gamers and newer gamers, and neither liked it; it is just simpler to stick with what they know in this regard.)

It is unrealistic in the sense that the only thing to go on in a combat round is not an attack, or more specifically, each attack isn’t just a sword thrust or pulling the trigger of a gun. There is movement & looking for advantage as well as trying to keep an eye on the fight going on around you so someone – or something – doesn’t get up behind you. Watch both MMA fights and movies and TV shows with lots of actions, both show lots of time taken up by the combatants to maneuver both defensively and offensively. The MMA fighters don’t just stand toe-to-toe swinging at each other, and the cops & robbers don’t just stand in the middle of the street shooting at each other. (While the latter is obviously fiction that does tend to be the stuff we are trying to emulate, so it pertains here. Plus, modern TV & Film making has gone to great lengths to make some things look real – though others are obviously far-fetched for entertainment purposes.)

My preferred combat round length: 5-6 seconds. I feel that gives me just about the best length of time to emulate all of those things that go into a single combat round. Also, I don’t like an arbitrary Initiative roll made up of some purely randomizing elements that is barely connected at all to the character in question. I believe that to gain initiative in the combat round you need to be more aware of what is going on than your opponent(s). This is why I prefer a combat perception test over just 2d10+Qu Mod. Then, you go from lowest to highest in calling actions, but perform them from highest to lowest initiative totals.

One thing I don’t like is the whole “I got initiative, so I move 30-feet and attack, before my opponent can do anything at all” scenario, that tends to permeate longer combat rounds. I like to have actions take time, so if you have to move then attack, your movement might come before your opponents attack (or other action), but your attack may not. I say “may” because if I feel – as the GM – that if the PCs initiative score was high enough over their opponents, I might say they can do both before their opponent does anything. With a 5-6 second long combat round I can abstract it enough to do this, while the 1 or 2-second combat round tends to take this out of the GMs hands. (I am firm believer that there is a GM for a reason, otherwise I would be playing a video game.)
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2015, 12:33:51 PM »
I like 6 seconds. It seems to work pretty well for everything. It is a little long per melee, perhaps, but if you think that it is possible, with high skill bonuses and situational modifiers, it is pretty easy to break 150 (and in a way get multiple attacks). If you are still worried that you don't get enough melee attacks per 6 seconds, you can say that you can make multiple attacks against a completely defenseless target (a door, an unconscious foe) by reducing your OB by 30 for each attack. This would allow people to coup de gras unconscious foes and hack down doors and walls more quickly than having to do 1 attack/round.

10 seconds is way too long. Even DnD has gone down to 6 seconds. The main reason I dislike rounds that are this long is that movement becomes meaningless: it is way too easy to run all the way off the battlemat if you can move 300' per round.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2015, 12:45:33 PM »
If battle maps are the way to go, then these very short melee rounds make more sense.  However, I prefer 5-10 seconds, with 10 remaining the massive improvement from the stone age standard of  a one minute melee round. 

BRP's 12 second round is another favorite of mine.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2015, 01:56:59 PM »
Firstly, I agree with much of what Rand said.

Movement and simultaneous actions are what got me thinking of 1 second rounds. Avg move in combat in 1 second I estimate at about 5' which is equal to closing and can allow move and attack in that 1 second - simultaneous.  If charging into combat depending on speed and armor maybe 15'.  In that case the only attack would be a charge attack.

My personal opinion is that ten hexes or so seems to work fine for us.  If you're actually in a hand to hand fight with multiple foes you likely aren't going to be able to safely move around, so that limits you without having to make the round way too short in order to do so.  Point being, there are ways to shorten movement in combat that don't actually decrease your overall possible movement.  Then it just comes down to how much movement you want possible in a round when NOT in melee.  Not sure if your issue is with both or not.

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As I am going for heroic I don't see an issue with getting an attack every second.  For archers they would need to sacrifice some accuracy to do it. Crossbows - forget it. Unless it is a special design.  Spell casting again can be sped up for a cost.

This means you are going to have to up the power of an individual attack with those 'weapons' which can then cause other problems.  This is why most game systems try to balance out the power of most weapons to be similar in one or two rounds.  In RM they are more likely every other round because, while the ranged weapons do roughly the same damage in a general sense, they have the advantage of range and target changes without movement.  But, as an example, PC's in our RM games won't carry around a crossbow until we modify their rules, because it's effectively a "fire and drop" weapon by the RM default stats.  They take far too long to reload and, as a result, are far less effective than other ranged weapons.  No one likes 'reloading' for 2-3 rounds, especially when the result is not worth it.

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As for picking locks during combat...  I see that as being a kind of % move.  Great skill (or luck) and you might get it in 1 round.  Most likely it takes more.   Think of a professional car thief with a slim Jim compared to the average person.  They slide that thing down, pull it up and open the door.  It would take me 3-5 minutes if I was lucky. Every lock has a different target and each try reduces the target and unless you fumble - then you would start again.  Combo locks would probably be a target for each digit/number.  This method keeps them rolling every round.

So, I'm not sure if I'm following right.  You'd have a % of action needed to pick a lock, which you build up over time?  It seems that that would make it possible to pick ANY lock given the right amount of time... and you shouldn't be able to pick ANY lock given time, some should be beyond a characters skill.   The other way is you might be rolling multiple rounds to pick the lock successfully, maybe even needing an open ended roll, maybe never being successful, but you ARE rolling to actually pick the lock every round, which is how RM effectively simulates it.  With Rolemaster it potentially taking multiple rounds by giving you a higher target number, which might take multiple tries to accomplish, when then causes it to take multiple rounds potentially.  It that more what you're thinking?

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Obviously some skills like trading don't lend themselves to a 1 second resolution - but that is unlikely to be executed during combat.

I strongly suspect most players won't like that.  Let's say your group has to hold off foes while you get a locked/barred/whatever door opened.  The person trying to open the door is realistically going to spend multiple rounds just opening a door.  How would you handle that?  If the whole build up of % action is how you're handing it that might work, but I'm going to hold off explaining my thoughts because I want to hear your thoughts on how it would work.

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So what if non-combat rounds were 10 seconds and targets were halved during those?

I think non-combat rounds simply aren't needed.  Way too much micro-managing.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2015, 02:01:50 PM »
If you are still worried that you don't get enough melee attacks per 6 seconds, you can say that you can make multiple attacks against a completely defenseless target (a door, an unconscious foe) by reducing your OB by 30 for each attack. This would allow people to coup de gras unconscious foes and hack down doors and walls more quickly than having to do 1 attack/round.

I think this is an important factor that hasn't been brought up.  Only one of multiple examples is that if you're a pure arms user you should be better at melee in more than just having a higher OB.  One of the best ways to simulate that is through multiple attacks.  Multiple attacks in one second become even more ridiculous than one attack per second (which I already think is over the top).

Quote
10 seconds is way too long. Even DnD has gone down to 6 seconds. The main reason I dislike rounds that are this long is that movement becomes meaningless: it is way too easy to run all the way off the battlemat if you can move 300' per round.

I prefer the six second too, but there are ways to slow movement without making rounds so short that everything else seems out of whack.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 04:59:20 PM »
It's interesting to see how other GM's run their games.
I like 6 sec rnds and have always used that for RM.
I feel some of the more elaborate crits, couldn't be performed in 1-2 seconds of combat time.
"Pull of opponent's helm and beat him with it", or "Your blow spins him around and he stumbles back 10 feet", work good for 6 second rnds, for me.

Even then, the point about balancing Movement with the rnd, whatever the time, is a good one.
%Action is helpful to us in determining what can be done in combat; time of rnds is less important.
That seems to reign in the movement of Fly spells and blindingly fast Monks running around the map. You only have so much %Act to use.
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Offline markc

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2015, 05:26:20 PM »
 Is there a RPG game that uses 5s rounds? I was trying to think of one and could not.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2015, 05:38:13 PM »
There are a lot of mechanics that can impact the sensible length of a round.  If we were talking Modern Fighter Airplanes, Space Ships, or BattleMechs I could see getting down to 1 second, but not when you're talking about a person themselves.  In all those other instances reaction time and button pushing is largely the rule of the day.  That's not at all the case in person to person physical melee.

I suspect a big part of the reason we don't have issues with massive amounts of movement in a given round are some of the other mechanics that we've implemented.  Things like disengaging, free attacks in some cases, using alternate round progressions (i.e. the "BattleTech" round vs traditional RM ones, etc) all have an impact on it.  It's unusual you can just break away and run with no repercussions.  But if you can, and you have a clear shot, I think you should get a good head start.  So that will obviously color my opinion of round lengths... but I think tweaking other parts of combat aside from round length accomplishes the goal in a more sensible way.

Honestly, we have such a minor issue with this topic, that I've decided to go with 5' hexes indoors (or on the deck of ship - i.e. a 'closed' space) and stick with 10' hexes outdoors (more open spaces).
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Offline damage

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2015, 05:40:24 PM »
I use a slightly-tweaked HARP system in RMFRP - 2 second rounds. It works very well for me. I never did like the Rolemaster 3-phase and percentage system. Combats with 2-second rounds tend to be very fast indeed...but it's a valid point about movement, I've had to rework movement rates to fit in with 2 second rounds.

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Offline RickInVA

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Re: Rounds.... Length and actions
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2015, 10:20:01 PM »
HARP uses 2 second rounds or 30 attacks per minute so it is not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

The feeling I am going for is not long, drawn out duels. It is heroic high adventure.  If a battle lasts a minute then something is wrong.  I want players to envision movie combat.

Which movies are you thinking of?  Many of the great movies of the 30s and 40s have swordfighting sequences, but they don't generally last 1 or 2 seconds.  Watch The Legend of Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or The Sea Hawk, a good fight scene is a minute or more. 

Aside from that, how much activity do you think you can accomplish in 1 second?  The current longbow speed shooting world record is 23 in 60 seconds.  That is accomplished with just enough draw to hit the target.  To nock an arrow, take a full draw, select the target and shoot would have to take several seconds.  I would think 10 seconds is a bare minimum unless you want to start assessing penalties.  Even with melee weapons 1 second is so little time.  Maybe with a foil one attack per second from an expert might happen.  But what about the guy with the great axe or two handed sword?  How fast do you think someone can swing that?  Even if every PC is Arnold Schwartzanegger, are all the NPCs equally overmuscled? 

To touch on movement...is the idea that movement in combat is somehow bad?  I don't get that.  In battle accounts back to Roman times I read of combatants throwing down their weapons and shields and running away.  I would think in your 1 second round that would be impossible.  All combat would become a battle to the death.  Is that what you are looking for?  If so, why?  What is wrong with movement in combat?  Even in a group setting you are probably not fighting like sardines in a can.  Unless you are in a formation like the phalanx people need room to maneuver to fight.  If you finish off your guy what is so unreasonable that you can move 30 feet to engage the next guy?  That's about the length of my living room, I can walk that in a few seconds, let alone if I was running to help a friend in combat.

I'm all for looking at alternate methods, but like many of your ideas I'm really not understanding the reason behind it.  This, for example, seems like an answer to a problem that doesn't exist, at least to me.  What is the problem that is being solved, or the sub-optimal result that can be improved by changing the duration of the combat round?  Even if its just an intellectual exercise there should be some benefit you see from it.  I'd really like to know, not to criticize, but to understand what the result of the change is supposed to be.