Author Topic: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?  (Read 3082 times)

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Offline C.Tozer

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Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« on: June 16, 2014, 03:32:04 PM »
Hi all

I'm using RM Companion II in a campaign that I am running and last night when putting up one of my players Conjurer character we noted that Conjurers get +2 per level for the "Linguistic Skills" category which list 12 different skills including "Language".

My player asked me if that means his character gets +2 additional language ranks to use each level. I am pretty sure that this is not the case but was keen to hear what the community think?
I am assuming that "language" was simply included in that list of 12 skills for completion but is treated as a different skill .... ie while Public Speaking would get +2 per level to a skill this wouldn't effect language skills as learning a language is treated differently.

Very keen to hear your thoughts or comments though?

Also I have in the dim recesses of my mind some recollection of certain professions (Bards, Magic Users?) automatically receive additional language ranks each level by virtue of their profession .... I am 99% sure I am wrong but wanted to check ... ??

Thanks all and look forward to hearing from you.

Chris
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Offline Old Man

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 07:50:55 PM »
Chris,

Level bonus in additional ranks in language used during the level (spoken or written) is how I ran it (and proposed in ROCO IV 5.13 pg 36).

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Offline Marrethiel

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 10:18:08 PM »
Proffesion bonus is a bonus to the skill total, not the ranks given. So yeah, classes with level bonus' to Linguistics get ripped off a bit.
We use it as a skill at times when you are doing something odd or you can make a skill check to get a bonus to another skill.
Say for example you are disguising yourself as an orc and need to really sound like a native, then a Language skill check is reasonable.
Or if you see some thing unique in a dungeon, then a skill check is used.

You can argue that the ranks in the language should do this but it adds flavour to a class. Would a human warrior learning 5 ranks of elvish speak it better than a bard or conjurer? Up to the GM really but it give the bonus a use.
I guess another way of looking at it is that an engineer with 10 ranks of craft balista shouldn't really have to make a skill check either, and in a perfectly calm setting (a workshop with good materials and plenty of time) he probably wouldn't have to. We use Language checks for the same reason.
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Offline C.Tozer

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 04:18:53 AM »
Thanks both Marrethiel and Old Man.

Thanks Marrethiel for your comments and yep I had thought that exactly your point that "Proffesion bonus is a bonus to the skill total, not the ranks given." but Old Man has found exactly the optional rule that I was thinking about which allows the opposite for languages (RM Companion IV 5.13 pg 36). This seems to make sense to me so will now use it in my game.

Suffice to say my player playing the conjurer was rather happy at this news ....
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Offline arakish

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 09:13:41 AM »
The way I handled it, since language was based on fluency ranging 0 to 10, then the professional bonuses give that bonus / 10 in language ranks.

Thus, with the +2, the Conjuror would get a bonus +1 rank every five levels.  A +3 would give a +1 rank on level 3, level 6, level 10, etc.  A +1 would only give a +1 rank every tenth level.

Do not know if I would use this anymore since this was a House Rule from about 30+ years ago.  And has not been used in the last 25+ years.

Now a days I tend to use rank in a language like a normal skill.  If have 6 ranks in a spoken language, and a +13 stat bonus, then your player would have a +43 bonus to understand anything in that language, especially if it were spoken at a fluency level greater than level 6.  Likewise, you would receive an additional +10 per level below the fluency level you possess.  A -10 per level greater than your rank + 1 would be applied at the other end.  Thus, if a person were speaking at a fluency level of 10, your character would have only a +13 bonus.

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Offline Marrethiel

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 05:28:05 PM »
Level bonus in additional ranks in language used during the level (spoken or written) is how I ran it (and proposed in ROCO IV 5.13 pg 36).

I'll look this reference up when I get home :)
Cheers
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2014, 10:44:12 AM »
Hello All,

Language was always a "disposable" skill to most people.  Many would take the basic level to get by in the world and not give it a second thought. Marrethiel is correct that professions with the Language bonus do tend to get ripped off a bit so we reworked the use of languages.

First, we split the skills into Language Spoken and Language Read/Written since there is a chart in RMC showing a difference between the two skill sets.  This makes the PC want to invest in Language and to make it worthwhile.  RMC lists the equivalents for the ranks and what the corresponding level of knowledge each rank equates to, from basic words, to grade school level, to university level, and innate knowledge of all idioms and idiosyncrasies of the language.

A good example is that I can speak Chinese, coming from a Chinese family and growing up in a Chinese restaurant.  However, I can only recognize a few (very few, sadly) characters of the written form of Chinese.  I can look at the character and know that it means “horse” but have no idea how to say it or I can look at a character and have absolutely no idea how to say it, let alone know what it means.  What sound does "Square with a cross and a diagonal dash on the left with 2 parallel lines on the right" make?  Forget writing it properly!!! I can duplicate the characters on paper, but when any Chinese person witnesses me writing Chinese, they laugh because I am writing the lines in entirely the wrong order.  And to confuse things even further, the dialects are very different.  Chinese movies are subtitled in Chinese so more Chinese people understand the movie.  Cantonese, Mandarin, Choi-san, Fushun will each speak the same character a different way and MAYBE it will be recognized by a different dialect of Chinese.  I can speak Cantonese and Choi-san because they sound somewhat similar, but I cannot speak Mandarin at all even though it is still Chinese.

I can read the French words on the paper easily enough, but if the grammar gets too in depth and idioms are used, I will probably have no idea what I am saying even though I am saying it correctly.

We then did something similar to Arakish by allowing the Level bonus to be added to the number of ranks when trying to figure out something unique other than just seeing if the target speech/text falls within the PC’s Skill Rank Category.  i.e.: a PC with 2 Ranks in Elvish trying to read a Doctorate level dissertation on the Effects of PEM on Mithril over Extended Periods of Time.  Sure the PC can understand some Elvish language, but the dissertation would require having 8-9 ranks in Elvish Read/Written to read it and to understand it.

5 ranks in a given language is more than sufficient to get by in a particular language.  But if an adventurer stumbles across a Trader and glimpses an Elven item in the back of the cart with some old Elven script on it, I would allow the PC to make a roll.

5*(Ranks in Elven Read/Written) + Language Level bonus +10  <---- +2 Level Bonus, Level 5 PC

25 + 10 + Dice Roll

Depending on the roll, the PC would have an idea of what it was or what it says.  If the Quality/Difficulty of the crafter's skill fell within the "8-9 skill ranks" or "10+ skill ranks" of languages category, then the PC would know that the level is at least too difficult to comprehend, but MAYBE, he recognized the stylized character for "fire" hidden in the text, but have no idea at all of the context or if that symbol, when paired with another symbol, means something entirely different.

Finally, I apologize for being longwinded; we set restrictions on which languages could be learned, the cost for those restricted languages due to the difficulty in finding a tutor, or a reasonable situation in which the PC would even be exposed to the language.  Learning Dragon speech is nigh impossible.  What dragon would tolerate a human long enough to teach him how to speak Drake?  The most a PC could have was 1-2 ranks in that language and none in Read/Written.  A PC can very rarely reach 10+ ranks in a non-racial language.  Humans can never hope to attain 10+ ranks in High Elvish or Ancient Dwarf.


PS:  Horse is pronounced "Mah" in Chinese and the character actually looks like a little horse. :-)
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Offline markc

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 02:46:21 PM »
A little bit of a topic hijack (ok maybe a lot) ;D  but what is your favorite Chinese dish in the following areas  common, uncommon and rare? By the c, uc and r area descriptions I guess I would say common are dishes people eat all of the time and you find on any Chinese restaurant menu and go on from there.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 03:53:54 PM »
A little bit of a topic hijack (OK maybe a lot) ;D  but what is your favorite Chinese dish in the following areas  common, uncommon and rare? By the c, uc and r area descriptions I guess I would say common are dishes people eat all of the time and you find on any Chinese restaurant menu and go on from there.
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Yes, a bit of a hijack! LOL

Common dish?  Not sure.  Common to Chinese people would be DimSum, but I know that is not common in USA.  Common on an Americanized menu?  Chow Fun (Large wide rice noodles with soy sauce, a meat, some bean sprouts and onions) or maybe wor hep har (shrimp, wrapped with bacon, deep fried then mixed with a slightly spicy sweet and sour sauce).

Uncommon?  Probably my grandfather's Lobster (loong har) Cantonese.

Rare?  Bird's Nest or Shark's fin soup.  Both are very difficult to find.

Since I used the Chinese names, we are back on topic!  5 extra XP awarded!
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Offline markc

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2014, 05:00:19 PM »
I enjoy all of thoes except for I have not had wor hep har or your grandfathers lobster and sharks fin soup has been baned in the USA in many states.
I am also sort of glad you did not list snake urin soup as something about that just makes my stomach turn.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 08:08:01 AM »
Quote from: Marrethiel
So yeah, classes with level bonus' to Linguistics get ripped off a bit.
Classes with a level bonus to Deadly skills get it worse.
As for languages, honestly, for roleplay purpose, in the end only three levels are useful IMO: do not know the language, basic knowledge ("Me want thing to eat") and fluency. It may be realistic to have ten or even twenty levels of fluency, but it's just impossible to play them correctly.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 10:07:55 AM »
As for languages, honestly, for roleplay purpose, in the end only three levels are useful IMO: do not know the language, basic knowledge ("Me want thing to eat") and fluency. It may be realistic to have ten or even twenty levels of fluency, but it's just impossible to play them correctly.

The number of ranks determines how long it takes to achieve fluency, and how long you spend at that intermediate level. If it was only two ranks, you could buy both in the same level and never spend any time at the "basic knowledge" level.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 01:11:40 PM »
Quote from: Marrethiel
So yeah, classes with level bonus' to Linguistics get ripped off a bit.
Classes with a level bonus to Deadly skills get it worse.
As for languages, honestly, for roleplay purpose, in the end only three levels are useful IMO: do not know the language, basic knowledge ("Me want thing to eat") and fluency. It may be realistic to have ten or even twenty levels of fluency, but it's just impossible to play them correctly.

Oh yeah... Deadly Skills.  Forgot about that category.  Definitely worse then Languages.

I agree with you regarding 3-4 ranks.  Most take 5 ranks in (Common), maybe 3 ranks in Dwarf Spoken and 3 ranks in Elf spoken and then language is never visited again.  For "higher" level campaigns or more in depth ones, it's more important to have language ranks.  The Elven and Dwarfen races are old.  Their societies are perhaps more secretive, or the artifact knowledge is lost in lore.  Being able to read the older/ancient texts becomes increasingly more valuable.  Being able to converse with some of the higher/elite Elven societies can open door or completely block a PC from a route. The Elves are elitist and isolationist.  Being able to speak with the higher ranking elders is definitely a boon.

All in all, the GM decides the importance of Language skills which will, in turn, inspire the PC to purchase more ranks in a given language.
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Offline BrianI

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 06:40:32 AM »
All in all, the GM decides the importance of Language skills which will, in turn, inspire the PC to purchase more ranks in a given language.
Likewise, I think if a Player expresses a lot of interest in languages, or makes a PC who's using a Linguistics bonus, then the GM might want to give some consideration to expanding or heightening Languages. Consider more national and cultural languages, maybe crib some language diagrams (old Hero Games books come to mind for one). Ask the Player what they might have in mind re: languages ... one Sorcerer's Player tells you she's thinking all sorts of arcane / occult texts and language, and the other views themselves as more of a Global Diplomat, you've got a couple areas to add.

Also, just off the top, maybe consider separate Ranks for literacy (written) vs. spoken languages. Literacy in various fantasy worlds is taken for granted, and often assumed.

Perhaps bonuses to various persuasion, diplomacy, etc. tests where characters have a noticeable difference in language. If PC party and the NPC party are arguing the merits of their cases in front of the Whatevers, suddenly the fact that one of the PCs has 10 ranks in Whateverian and ranks in matching Parent language, etc., becomes very relevant - esp. if the NPC equivalent is technically proficient at Diplomancy but less skilled in the language needed.

Just some early morning thoughts.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 10:38:01 AM »
Magical Languages, from RMC I and Essence Companion, are very useful for spell casters.  They require a skill check to use, so a level bonus is good to have.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 01:31:35 AM »
More of a side skill comment in general, but one of things I've done during players character creation is have them tell me what their character did before 'adventuring'.  Once they make their character I give them certain skills for free that reflect that background if they do not have a directly impact on the characters combat/spell ability.  So, if someone was a carpenter I would grant them a certain amount of skill related to that.

I'll also potentially grant campaign specific skills, such as the party will be doing a lot of sea-based adventure and the game will start off related to that somehow, so I take a look at their final character and decide what boat/ship/sea based skills they would likely posses and grant starting skills in those free.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2014, 01:26:19 PM »
I have been working on a campaign for a group of new-to-RM players and I've decided that the players will most likely have dealings with the Dwarf Underking who only speaks the "ancient language" of the Dwarfs (akin to Latin vs. modern day languages).  The players will need to have at least 7, maybe 8 ranks in Dwarf Spoken.  This will force the players to have to deal with a translator and also to run the risk of misinterpreting some possibly key words or phrases.  It's going to make for a very tightly coiled spring of political tension.  I may even throw in a portion of an ancient map and some directions that will require 9+ ranks in Dwarf Read/Written to comprehend.  Without that understanding, it's going to leave the campaign and adventure open to a lot of open ended side quests I can send them on as they try to figure out the scripts is actually saying.
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Offline markc

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »
The party might also pick up Ancient Dwarven if someone will teach it to them. ;D
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Level bonuses & additional language ranks?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2014, 02:29:49 PM »
The party might also pick up Ancient Dwarven if someone will teach it to them. ;D
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