Author Topic: Vehicle Combat and Experience!  (Read 2810 times)

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Offline Erik Sharma

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Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« on: August 19, 2012, 10:03:26 AM »
I started to think about this during our first session yesterday. How do you handle XP awards according to RAW from Vehicle Combat? For an example when shooting down a ship manned by several people.

Offline markc

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 11:27:08 AM »
  Right off the top of my head I do not know. But I think I would try and rate the enemy ship vs the players ship. From there I would give Exp.
  It also has been a long time since I looked at the RAW Exp since I just apply Exp based on goals, good RP, etc. But I will look into it as I have the time. I will also take a look at SM2 and see how they handle it as well.
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 But as a player and not a GM I would vote for all Exp based on the hits of the ship, every crit and every person aboard. But as a GM I would shake my head as that is a lot of Exp.
 
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 12:51:25 PM »
Personally I wouldn't go as detailed as including xp for crew. At the end of the ay they are fairly interchangeable, and reflect more about the ship than anything else. Sure, the pilot might be a level 25 hotshot, but if he's piloting an orbital shuttle, he might as well be just a level 3 cargo runner.

Therefore, I'd give xp based on the tonnage of the ship, adjusted if it was exceptional in some way that made it harder or easier to kill, or had a crew that meant it was operating at sub-optimal ability, and also add on xp for criticas and hits taken/delivered, like happens for personal combat - given equally to all crew members of whichever the victorious side is.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 03:25:10 PM »
calculate total exp.  Divide 50% of experience amongst those who did the most (such as PC's manning guns) and divide the remaining 50% amongst everybody.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline JimiSue

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »
I personally prefer to keep xp as group as possible. here is a lot of xp to be gained from shooting guns - which means that those who don't shoot guns as much end up lagging behind the others... which long term means you end up with parties of gun bunnies. It's been a long time since I did xp properly in Space Master, but I'm not a big fan of competitive leveling up - it unbalances the game and can lose players.

Offline Erik Sharma

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 04:55:53 PM »
Well had the first space combat in our first session of Spacemaster. Been a while so I was a bit rusty but the flow is starting to come back. They blasted full speed away from a Space Station trying to escape before the station would blow them out of the sky. Both the station and the ship got away with only cosmetic damage (hits, no crits).

No biggie this time but it got me wondering if I should establish a framework on how I should handle space combat xp in the future.

I was thinking about using the pilot or pilots average level as the ships level when you inflict crits on the the ship to get a guide on the xp received. Ofcourse the gunners are the ones that get those xps as usual.

For the kill exp I am thinking about handling along the lines of already suggested group xp guidelines. Total Kill XP - the Crit XP and then divide it evenly among the participating members. Even though the gunners will get the largest part of this pool of XP the other crewmembers should have plenty of XP coming in from skills rolls to even this out.

Any thoughts and suggestions on this?

Offline JimiSue

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 05:30:07 AM »
Even though the gunners will get the largest part of this pool of XP the other crewmembers should have plenty of XP coming in from skills rolls to even this out.
Not so sure about this. The pilot might because he gets to roll combat pilot every round, but what about your techs? If the ship sustains no major damage then they don't have anything to repair. Likewise other characters without gunnery, tech or piloting skills (at least not high enough to be useful) like a social talker type, or a telepath?

I still think the best way is to gdo exp however you're going to and then split it evenly as a group. It stops the gun nuts from running away with it, e.g. an Armsman with a weapon on full automatic, choosing the fire option to select different targets (which they always do) does a *lot* of damage and a *lot of criticals, and gets a *lot* of kills, which is fair enough, that is his job. Even though he probably couldn't do his job without backup of other party members, those other party members just go and read a book for half an hour when the Armsman's initiative turn comes up, and gradually lose ground in levels as that pattern repeats itself. That also builds party resentment (vocalised or otherwise) and irritation that the Armsman's combat round takes as long as the rest of the party put together.

End result of that is people lagging behind either lose interest and stop playing, or make sure their next character is a gun-toting nut-job so they get their share of spotlight time as well.

Offline markc

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 07:12:53 AM »
 In RL I think people in stressful situations (real stress) can learn a lot more than in non stress situations (if your job demands that skill set). So I think even non-action types in combat learn quicker and more. The com person is generally doing EW or directing ships coms, personnel and keeping the info of battle flowing. Other people are generally helping out if they have any skills that can be of use. In SM:P ships-crew-member is a must even if they only have a small score IMHO it provides what they need to help out.


 Now if someone is just sitting on a ship in isolation and it blows up another ship I do not think I would give any Exp as they did not have any chance to learn anything for that situation. Also even if someone is just watching the crew go through combat can learn from it. Even if it is that they would like to get involved or learn where the emergency craft are and how to use them. (IMHO that is what Ships Crew Member skill covers in SM:P)
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Offline markc

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 07:18:01 AM »
JimiSue,
 I forgot to answer you post on gun nuts vs passive PC's I have seen this in play and have tried to balance it out by having something for every on to do even if they are not involved in ship to ship combat.
 I have allowed that player(s) to roll for the enemy, help me doing other stuff (at time fun at times not), have other times when they shine and the gun nuts have to sit it out for a time, take a small break, etc. The best situation I had was a group of 4 that I had make 2 PC's each and one was a action type and the second was a secondary type. With direct input from me during PC gen it was great, the players had about the right skills to do what they needed to do and IMHO it was a lot of fun.
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Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
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Offline Erik Sharma

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 01:35:34 AM »
Even though the gunners will get the largest part of this pool of XP the other crewmembers should have plenty of XP coming in from skills rolls to even this out.
Not so sure about this. The pilot might because he gets to roll combat pilot every round, but what about your techs? If the ship sustains no major damage then they don't have anything to repair. Likewise other characters without gunnery, tech or piloting skills (at least not high enough to be useful) like a social talker type, or a telepath?

I still think the best way is to gdo exp however you're going to and then split it evenly as a group. It stops the gun nuts from running away with it, e.g. an Armsman with a weapon on full automatic, choosing the fire option to select different targets (which they always do) does a *lot* of damage and a *lot of criticals, and gets a *lot* of kills, which is fair enough, that is his job. Even though he probably couldn't do his job without backup of other party members, those other party members just go and read a book for half an hour when the Armsman's initiative turn comes up, and gradually lose ground in levels as that pattern repeats itself. That also builds party resentment (vocalised or otherwise) and irritation that the Armsman's combat round takes as long as the rest of the party put together.

End result of that is people lagging behind either lose interest and stop playing, or make sure their next character is a gun-toting nut-job so they get their share of spotlight time as well.

That is why gunners would only get XP for the crits they make. The actual Killl XP would be divided by the the group participating in the combat. Unless the gunner really pound the target with crits before he goes down and steals away all the Kill XP.
I am sorry if it was not clear enough that Kill XP would be the total of all the crewmembers manning a ship and divided among all the participants of the opposing ship. It will be very unlikely for a gunner to be able to drain all the Kill XP of a ship manned by several people. Been running some example combats to crunch the numbers and so far the gunners have not been the ones dominating the space combat xp. If you do want to reduce their xp rewards even further I would recomend awarding them the same xp as hitting a 0-level target when hitting a ship. I choose to use the average level of all the participants on the ship as the ships level.

But yes the RAW xp system does seem to give more xp from combat than from doing casual work. But never forget to beef up the normal skill rolls from increased danger of a combat situation. A mechanic trying fix up that Quantum Drive while other ships keep hitting theirs and his friends are running around screaming at each other should get a larger xp reward for his skill rolls in that situation. I often award players with XP from the Idea XP Pool for good roleplaying on top of good ideas.
I normally follow these guidelines adapted to the danger levels in the rules:
  • Non-combat/stress situation = No Danger x1/2
  • Combat/Stress Situation = Some Danger x1
  • Will get damage on the result of a failed skill roll = Danger x2
  • Will die on the result of a failed skill roll = Extreme Danger x3
Each normal skill roll for a guy in a combat situation would land between 0-500xp for each skill roll (average 50xp) which is around the same as the rewards received for crits.

To take an example we have a situation with a ship that has a 10th level Pilot, 10th level Gunner and finally the 9th Sensor/EW operator (average 10th level). During the fight the ship takes a B crit, the gunner inflicts a A crit followed by the B crit that finishes of the ship with a high crit roll. The Pilot makes a total of 4 Medium Skill Rolls/Some Danger for a total of 200 XP reward. The gunner lands a 53A and the finishing 65B (max possible result against the armor type) for a total of 208 XP (126 XP if is considered a 0-lvl oppponent). The Sensor/EW operator makes a total of 3 Medium/Some Danger Skill Rolls landing a total of 150 XP. The ship takes a 53B crit resulting in a total of 253 XP divided evenly among the people on the ship (84 XP). The opposing ship is manned by a 4th level Crew, 10th level Crew, 5th level Crew and 6th level Crew (average level of 6). The total Kill XP and using the average lvl of 10 of their own ship would be: 120+300+135+150-90 (includes the Int modifier)= 615 XP or 697 XP (if using the 0-lvl option). Divide this on all the players would result in 205 XP (232 XP).

The XP rewards would be as follows (0-lvl option in parenthesis):
  • 10th level Pilot:489 XP (516 XP) (
  • 10th level Gunner: 496 XP (441 XP)
  • 9th level Sensor/EW Operator: 438 XP (465 XP)
  • Idea XP distributed by GM: 712 XP (711 XP)

As you can see the difference is not that huge for the participating group. And the GM still have the Idea XP Pool to give out. Heck! Lets say we introduce another character. Not only would he steal a total of 72 XP (79 XP) by doing nothing than just being on the ship during combat. Lets say he runs around the ship roleplaying really well and give very good advice to the other characters and that way manage to claim all the Idea XP. He would be getting a reward of 784 XP (790XP) which is around 60% higher XP reward than anyone else would receive. So I would still claim that the best source of XP is clever ideas and good roleplaying. This is just how I now have decided to handle the situations and since it is very early in our campaign it can be modified in the future. But seem to work well for us!  :D

Offline markc

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Re: Vehicle Combat and Experience!
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 10:29:46 AM »
Very good analysis of Starship combat. +1 idea point.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.