Author Topic: Time Travel  (Read 7882 times)

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Offline LonePaladin

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2012, 02:06:15 AM »
This thread is a great example of how we know time travel (in a single dimensional time frame, rather than multiple diverging timelines) will never happen. If it were possible, our single timeline would have imploded with people in the future trying to make changes to get things 'their' way.
Of course, there's always the theory that things are so messed up right now precisely because of people like that.[/tinfoilhat]

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2012, 06:51:39 AM »
Or that time travel gets invented over and over, but causes so many problems that it's no sooner invented when a time traveler comes back and kills the inventor to save everyone trouble.
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Offline Vyrolakos

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2012, 08:08:48 AM »
This thread is a great example of how we know time travel (in a single dimensional time frame, rather than multiple diverging timelines) will never happen. If it were possible, our single timeline would have imploded with people in the future trying to make changes to get things 'their' way.
Of course, there's always the theory that things are so messed up right now precisely because of people like that.[/tinfoilhat]

You think this is messed up?

This is what the world looks like with shadowy cartels covertly manipulating things behind the scenes to enable a One World Government.

Imagine what it would look like if your benevolent Illuminati Overlords weren't here to protect you.  8)

Can I borrow your tinfoil hat please?  ;D

Offline JimiSue

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 06:00:08 PM »
Slightly going off topic :) But I remember a published Cthulhu adventure where the end result was the depression in the 20s and 30s. If the players had somehow managed to spoil the plans, the GM was meant to hint that it could have been even worse. Which I thought at the time (and still think now) was a pretty sucky way to end the adventure.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2012, 07:04:18 PM »
When you get something that gives you wishes, you destroy it. Time travel is the same.
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2012, 05:35:12 PM »
In my homegrown fantasy world (mainly used for d20 but not exclusively) the only beings able to grant a wish are gods. So whenever a player uses one I roll randomly to see which one of them is on "wish duty" and see how likely they are to try and twist it. My players usually only use one or two before Bad Things happen.

Offline providence13

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2012, 10:56:04 AM »
With three wishes, the last wish is usually to negate the first 2.
With time travel, you might not have that luxury.

But I still see each trip as an individual universe into and of itself. You don't really alter anything in "yours", just the one you are in right now. Even then, as a GM I'd make at least subtle changes. Your heroes are drug addicts, different presidents are in power. Maybe we have non-polluting electric cars, but Monsanto Corn has caused an extreme allergy to cheap food so the world is starving..
  All because you wanted to go back and win the lottery.. ;)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2012, 12:57:56 PM »
With three wishes, the last wish is usually to negate the first 2.
With time travel...

...you wish to negate the last 2 wishes, show up in front of yourself, snarl "Ignorant fool, you just had to meddle, didn't you?" and plunge a knife into your heart, whereupon you both cease to have ever existed in the first place.

Piece of cake.  ;)
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
Oo Ee Oo Aa Aa, Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang... Traditional Verbal Components
Eye of Newt and Toe of Frog, Wool of Bat and Tongue of Dog... Traditional Potion Formula

Offline licoricemetal

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2012, 11:47:06 AM »
Here is a physicis't angle on time travel:

1) Be aware that we are already travelling in time. Consider Einstein's definition of time as the 4th dimension. When we travel through space, we continuously change our position in some arbitrary x, y and z axes. But we are also changing our position along the time (t) axis. In fact, we advance through time at a constant speed of one second per second! Every second, we travel foreward in time at a distance of exactly one second. So countrary to x, y and z where we can vary our speed, travel through time is restricted to a single speed, one sec. per sec., and in a single direction: foreward.

2) When we travel through space, we do not magically teleport from one point to another, instead we gradually change our position at various speed, so that we pass through every point between our origin and our destination. This excludes quantum teleportation, which is another story for another day.

3) So for me, time travel means that we gain the ability to change our travel speed through time. It is not different from travel through space. If I want to time travel into the "future", I will have to increase my "speed" through time. If I want to time travel into the past, I will have to reverse my direction of travel.

4) Time travel through the future: So let's pretend that we can construct a mechanism that allows us to increase our travel speed through time. What happens? Say we advance at 10 seconds per second. In this example we would see everything around us evolve ten times faster than normal. The people around us would see us as well, but they see us behave in slow motion, by a factor of ten. Once we reach our "destination time", we resume our normal speed through time. Of course, with this process it is impossible to go back in time. We are stuck in the future. On the other hand, with this process there is no chance of meeting an older version of ourselves. We are the original. There is no paradox, and no violation of conservation of energy (more on this later)

5) I have more trouble justifying time travel in the past, since it involves reversal of time travel axis. So let's say we reverse our speed through time, so we go at -1sec. per second. Everytime the world moves foreward by one second, we move backward by one second. From our point of view, we see everything around us go backward, like a videotape that we rewind. But there are problems: I) Travelling backward in time does not mean we travel backward in space. Which means that the inertia that we possess initially (say our velocity due to Earth's rotation etc) is carried with us. But, when we see the world go backward, they also go backward in space, which means we see the Earth travel backward in its trajectory while we continue to travel foreward. Consequence: we are expelled from the orbit of Earth, violently. So on top of travelling backward in time, we have to travel backward in space relative to Earth. II) Now there will be a paradox, as we gradually travel backward we will exist along with the younger copy of ourselves. If not then it would mean we are changing the world by the mere act of travelling backward. III) Worse is the problem of conservation of energy. The total energy of the Universe is constant. This is a sacrosaint law of physics. When we travel backward, we are carrying our energy (E=mc^2) with us. We are introducing this new energy in the "past", and we are taking this energy away from the "present". So we actually violate conservation of energy twice. This is not acceptable.

- For those who want a teleportation type of time travel, as in I magically disappear from the present and appear in the past/future, please remember to account for energy conservation: you need to add energy in the time frame you left and remove energy to the time you visit, equal to your mass times the speed of light squared. Somehow none of the time travel movies seems to take this important little detail into consideration.

N

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2012, 02:43:09 PM »
- For those who want a teleportation type of time travel, as in I magically disappear from the present and appear in the past/future, please remember to account for energy conservation: you need to add energy in the time frame you left and remove energy to the time you visit, equal to your mass times the speed of light squared. Somehow none of the time travel movies seems to take this important little detail into consideration.

So a poorly cast teleport may freeze everyone solid at the spot you left, or fireball you and all around you upon arrival.... or vice versa, depending on how you misjudged the spell. But the same could be said for teleporting in space, at least to whatever extent your motion is along a N-S axis. The change in the relative motion of the planet under you never forces you to land running, so that energy has to have appeared from (or gone) somewhere, it didn't just cease to exist.
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
Oo Ee Oo Aa Aa, Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang... Traditional Verbal Components
Eye of Newt and Toe of Frog, Wool of Bat and Tongue of Dog... Traditional Potion Formula

Offline licoricemetal

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2012, 10:33:45 PM »
So a poorly cast teleport may freeze everyone solid at the spot you left, or fireball you and all around you upon arrival.... or vice versa, depending on how you misjudged the spell. But the same could be said for teleporting in space, at least to whatever extent your motion is along a N-S axis. The change in the relative motion of the planet under you never forces you to land running, so that energy has to have appeared from (or gone) somewhere, it didn't just cease to exist.

Haha! Yeah, same problem goes with teleportation. Assuming energy cannot be transerred faster than the speed of light, when you teleport, your mass/energy is transported through space too fast. One possible outcome is that your teleportation will create a shockwave, or a rift through space, as the mass/energy of the Universe would try to rebalance itself and compensate for the sudden change, so there would be a rapid (at speed of light) flow of energy from destination to origin, perhaps affecting everything on its path, just like air would flow from an area of high pressure toward low pressure...

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 10:20:30 AM »
So the assumption that magic works at all has to assume that a successfully cast spell included constructing a bunch of "safeties" whose sole purpose was to transfer energy from one place (or possibly time) to another to balance things out. To at least some extent you have to assume this is true of even something as simple as an Ignite cantrip, otherwise the apprentice's first successful casting results in his death from ice crystals in the brain.

 :o
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
Oo Ee Oo Aa Aa, Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang... Traditional Verbal Components
Eye of Newt and Toe of Frog, Wool of Bat and Tongue of Dog... Traditional Potion Formula

Offline licoricemetal

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2012, 07:32:13 AM »
I always assume that magic, psionic or any other super power has to obey the laws of physics. Of course, there are tricks to deal with this (example exchanging energy with another parallel dimension).

I will make a post soon about magic/psionics and Newton's 3rd law