Topic: Multiple attacks in Space Master

[JimiSue]

Inspired by the post in the Role Master section... I'm speaking here of SM2 since I don't know how it works in Privateers. To quickly recap the salient points from SM2 then:

The combat round is not quite the same as RM. It is essentially Orientation / Psion Phase / Fire Phase A / Movement & Maneuver / Fire Phase B / Melee Phase. Most hand weapons are capable of firing twice per round (i.e. once in each fire phase). This means that the Teep is even more disadvantaged at low levels than the pure spell users in RM, because he has to sit through twice as much action before he gets a turn. This is accentuated by use of preparation rounds...

Since Teeps and Semis are not that attractive to most of the players I game with (the attraction of space ships with BFO guns seems to be the thing, and TIERing weapons, while cool, just take way too much development for a teep who is already spending large chunks of DP on psion lists).

However, it is an issue, and even at 5th level PC Armsmen are becoming too powerful, too fast. Having played a teep myself to a decent level (high teens) I can vouch that telepaths are even more powerful than the RM pures, simply because they are the only 'caster' in Space master. And as a result their lists cover the better aspects of many of the spells users in RM. All this leads to an even greater imbalance of arms users powerful at low levels and teeps powerful at high.

I have been toying with an idea to combine the SM rank system with the improvement system of RuneQuest - where the skill user gets a chance to improve his skill if he first uses a skill successfully, and then makes an increasingly difficult advancement check - in RQ that is represented by rolling your skill, so the closer that gets to 100, the less chance you have of getting a skill up. In this (proposed) amalgamation, I would transfer psion lists to become skills (so you'd have essentially a skill of Thought Into Pain or Control, or whatever, which would then create a level playing field for improvement, eventually requiring the PCs to find people skilful enough to train them (i.e. adventure hooks!) but still doesn't help the "combat monkey owning all" thing. The skill ups in weapons would logically translate to OB, while in psion lists they could translate to the maximum level the telepath can access on that list.

My next set of thinkings is again RQ-inspired, using a nice set of skills from RQ3 in the Sorcery section. These skills allowed you to manipulate the effects of your spells, make them more powerful, and so on. While the actual skills themselves wouldn't work, the concept does. So for example, I might have an "Attack Twice" skill (no stat, like Ambush) which you can develop, but in order to avoid jamming your finger in the trigger when you try and shoot in Fire Phase B, you need to break 100 on that skill first. This could be followed up with other skills such as "Machine-gun trigger" which allows you (having succeeded your "Attack Twice" check, have a chance of being able to squeeze off a third attack at reduced OB and increased fumble range in the Maneuver phase... and so on. Some skills may require specially-modified equipment.

In a similar vein, have skills for the telepath like being able to develop the "Two Track Mind" background option through a skill, or be able to squeeze out a second psion later in the round.

I get the feeling that this idea is half-formed, and has some holes (e.g. if you use this advancement for weapons, does the armsman lose his principal benefit of having lower combat skill costs?)... So any suggestions on how to level the field with pure arms users who can already attack twice per round with some frighteningly powerful weapons... would be welcome

[Marc R]

The teep has to wait longer after acting, since psions comes before fire A. So in SM2 time they always get to go first, then have to await.

I've tried variations of all the ideas you have up there, and they all work, but in working they shift things around. . .you almost never hit a true sweet spot, usually you just tip balance in another direction. . .I'd advise making small changes and letting them settle a bit before trying the next, as often you can't tell what's really causing a result if you make lots of changes at the same time.

My SM experience says the Teep is going to be a better "actor" while the armsman will be a better "Reactor". . . .more so even than casters in RM. . .going first, and having set up the situation to favor teep powers can make them neigh unstoppable. . .but when you get jumped in the street by 5 goons, the teep has to use their powers in a situation of their opponents choosing, and often is defending so hard they can't fight well. The armsman also benefits from choosing the place and time, but their abilities work better when just being dropped into the pot too.

The disadvantages of being a teep encourage them to either be more wary, or to hang out with armsmen who can cover them in a drop in the pot situation so they can act, which they do well, rather than react, which they do poorly.

Which also isn't too far off the situation with mages and fighters.

Is the problem that teeps are not balanced against fighters in your view, or that they aren't balanced to compliment each other. i.e. Is one side or the other feeling overwhelmed by cross type enemies, or are they feeling useless compared to their fellow cross type party members?

[JimiSue]

Is the problem that teeps are not balanced against fighters in your view, or that they aren't balanced to compliment each other. i.e. Is one side or the other feeling overwhelmed by cross type enemies, or are they feeling useless compared to their fellow cross type party members?

Hard to say. I'm just very conscious of the fighting types destroying the oppositioon before the teep barely has time to do anything. And I'm very consciousof the teep player sitting there looking bored while the rest of us work out all the bullets, and since she's a new player I am keen to not encourage boredom. To that end I abolished (or rather, just didn't mention) the prep round rules. The scary thing for me is that the party isn't really all that over-heavy on combat types:

Armsman: Yes, yes, OK. He talks to his guns.
Bounty Hunter: The player has developed this more as a sniper, and is more specialised than the armsman, but is dangerous in a firefight
Combat Engineer: Is good with a couple of guns, but not much better than average - he spends most DP on technical and medical skills
Black Market Merchant: is being roleplayed as a non-combat social type (as a type 4 replicant, not that surprising ) and usually uses just a stun pistol
And the teep.

I think arms users are overpowered, which isn't admittedly too much of a problem in a universe without many finger-wigglers (or brain-wigglers, or whatever). As a GM I don't have a huge issue with teeps getting rather godlike at higher levels because they make super villains - it's really to make the teep players feel like they can make a decent contribution towards party survivability. So since no one likes the nerf bat, it's more about making teeps closer to the arms users in their vulnerable early years. I don't think it will properly even out until 20th level or so when the teeps have a good range of attack and defence psions, and once the PCs discover the art of creative weapon design to improve on their own weapons, they might be able to keep upuntil 25th level or so. By which time I'm not expecting to be running any more due to players' short attention spans

[Marc R]

Games include more and less combat, and unless it's an outright military campaign, players can usually try to avoid combat. . .and off the combat grid, casters and teeps get a lot of benefit.

I've heard a reverse complaint to what you're laying out in terms of computers. . in a hacking heavy game, suddenly the computer using tech is doing all sorts of stuff out of combat while the other players get bored and irritated about the tech "hogging the GM while we twiddle our thumbs".

If every session is high on combat, then non combat built PCs may rapidly start to feel marginalized.

Then again, usually the hacking tech is at least OK with his pistol, so he's not useless in a fight.

Have you tried Semi-teeps to get a bit more combative?

As a next easy end, If you want to speed up the teeps a bit, I'd consider going over the lists and making sure to push lists with instant effects on the player, less round and round prep issues if they have some instants to drop back onto.

Going over the choices the teep makes, if they pick a lot of instant heavy abilities, they are going to be more combat useful, if they prefer the non instant stuff then they are making the same choice as an RM player that picks a profession with few instant spells. . .expect to do a lot of prepping in play for the effects they chose to take.

On top of that, perhaps once you reach mid levels, your teeps shouldn't be reaching out to use abilities at or over their levels, instead going back to do non instants they can now use as if instant due to being far enough behind teep level. You can do fast, or strong, not both without penalties.

Beyond that, sometimes just some nuance into play can make the teep feel more useful. . .like if telekinisis on a switch 30' off is key to the scenario, the teep is doing something nobody else can easily do. . .like spells, teep abilities let you go outside the box of "possible under normal circumstances" and waiting 3 rounds might be worth it to use TK to flip a switch, or drop a grenade inside that hover tank's open hatch.

Past that, twiddle the rules, but take it slow, one change at a time, so you can feel how the changes affect play and decide if you like them.

[JimiSue]

I feel a bit silly not to have thought of that. The teep in the group is a fairly new addition - she came in about half way through the last set of sessions that I did. I do try to write material that includes some non-combative options (as you'd see if the set of scenarios I wrote for the game ever make it onto the download section - it's possible of course they are waiting to clear that submission due to the map I keep meaning to do ) so that my engineer and smuggler PCs get their turn in the sun. I'll get the teep player to tell me her character's psion lists and see what I can make useful from there. Fairly sure she's gone for Control as her primary field, but she's run out of those to learn now so she's into her second field - and I can't recall if that's Self Mastery or Alterations.

I've played a semi-t. Spent every session wishing I'd either chosen Pilot, or Full Telepath. Semis suck at all things, at least the full class versions all have something they can do better than anyone else!

[markc]

 Maybe introduce some items from RM2 like the spell store, psy store or others that can reduce low level Psy talents but are not useful at higher ranks/levels.
MDC

[yammahoper]

Adopt the firearms rules from Firearms Law, that will reduce some of the gun weilders power.