Topic: SM2 Rules assist please! - Cybernetics (SpaMCo2)

[JimiSue]

So, in my home grown setting, I have an NPC who aside from being an annoying spoiled little rich girl, also happens to be one of the planet's leading surgeons and cybernetic researcher - daddy owning a top end cyber-wear firm sure helps with that. Her "thing" is that about all there is left of her is her brain and brain stem - most of the rest has been grown and modified through use of molecutronic nerve threaders, micro-computers, advanced bone replacement meshes and interlace... etc. etc.

However, one of my brighter players has twigged that since that's the case, can't this wench upgrade their bodies with cyber-limbs and other toys. Since the players have also discovered energy shields and I can stop fudging quite so many dice rolls to keep them alive, it is inevitable that they will be taking some more crits and therefore losing body parts. I figured I should therefore actually create a full character sheet for this doctor, which is where the trouble began.

Let us take the example of a Mk 5 organic limb. This is listed in the game as granting: +10 Action modification, +15 initiative modification, +40 maximum ST increase, +15 CO modification, +15 AG modification and +10 QU modification.

Which is all well and good, but, assuming for now that requisite strengthing has also been applied to the sockets where they combine with the more mundane natural body... and also that the bonuses only apply when making use of that particular limb... what happens if you have both arms and both legs as one of these Mk5 organics? Do you end up witjh +40 actions, +60 initiative, + 160 (!) maximum strength and so on? Assuming that was the case, I continued down that road (applying these modifiers as a stat bonus rather than a stat point, as if they were stat points once they get over 100 it's +5 per point which becomes even stupider, even faster.

What this meant on this physician was if that she buys 10 ranks in martial arts (striking) that she ends up with an offensive bonus breaking 300 (at level 14) which is kind of frightening when I realise that a proper combat character would be even sicker.

I see that the ST bonus is listed as maximum, and presumably this relates to some skill in manufacture and installation, as well as ability to apply all that power in one hit, but even leaving ST aside for the moment, the combined CO bonuses just make the total hit calculation go through the roof.

For the time being I have ruled that this is cutting edge tech and the listed cost needs a zero adding, but that will only delay the problem for a short while - sooner or later the PCs will get those kinds of funds (they are saving up for a ship).

So - am I understanding these rules incorrectly? I'd greatly appreciate some alternate interpretation!

Cheers,

JimiSue

[TerryTee]

Sorry to say I never really liked the SM2 cybernetics rules. They are not really a consistent rule set. We started using cybernetics in SM2 before the Companion 2 came out, and we used the Cyberspace rules for SM2. Once Companion 2 was released we never really switched to it, but used it as a supplement to the Cyberspace rules.MK5 is supposed to be cutting edge, absolutely. In most settings I play with MK5 is not even available.
As for bonuses. I think the stat bonuses are a max, and you never add them together. If you only have one arm with +40 St then you only get to use that +40 is some circumstances. If you have replaced the whole body with parts that has +40 St, then you get +40 all the time like a regular stat bonus.
 
-Terry

[Ynglaur]

Think of MkV as that +25 item in Rolemaster, to get an idea of rarity/availability.  Sure, it exists.  But why would the powers that control it allow the likes of you to use it. 

[markc]

 From the SM:P Books you only get the full limb bonus if both limbs have the same bonus in each limb, otherwise IMHO it would depend on the situation.
 Also IMHO some of the limb bonuses would need additional body parts to receive the bonus. For example if you have a lot of ST in a arm but do not have the cyber body/shoulder and cyber legs to assist in lifting a car you would really hurt yourself. Or rip your cyber arms right off your body. (I am trying to remember the series of books in which a person could will their str, con, agl, qu, etc to another but then they lost all of that stat and were crippled and had to be taken care of. In the series they provides some examples that have stuck with me since about super stats and not balanced super stats.)


 As for Stat max with cyber parts I would look at your game and see how racial bonuses interact with your stats. I have played you add the racial bonus as a bonus and I have played where you add it to your temp and max stat's. Once you have that info you can decide on how much more powerful you want to make cybernetic parts.


MDC   

[JimiSue]

The game environ is a planet where there has been a *lot* of genetic research, and a huge amount of replication which is essentially used as extremely low-paid labour. The large majority of the population are replicants and the children of replicants (they are allowed to breed here, in violation of Imperial law). There are almost no legal barriers to dodgy research of all kinds, but especially in the field of cybernetics (a good proportion of the planetary income comes from mining where limb loss is fairly common - at least in this world where Health and Safety does not apply). Therefore it does make game sense to permit the higher end modifications. My party consists of Replicant 1 Bounty Hunter, Transhuman 1 Armsman, Transhuman 2 Combat Engineer, Transhuman 4 Telepath, and Replicant 4 (yes, the 'leisure' model) Black Market Merchant/Smuggler.

I'm playing where the racial mods are applied as a bonus to the stat modifier, which is how I've always played - I've never even considered the possibility that they could be added to the stat but at first thinking if you get a high stat combined with a high racial it would break that system  - my Teep for example has a prime in Self Discipline so it's therefore at least 90, and her racial modifier is +30. If adding to the stat that gives a minimum SD of 120, which is obscene.

I definitely need to hit the cyber rules with a nerf bat. I've not even considered the torso in the calc - to avoid even more insane numbers I've assumed that is mostly a structural thing to house internal organs and provide the support necessary to cope with the increased demands. I don't own Cyberspace unfortunately (never read the books either - yes I know, heresy, just show me the vats of tar and feathers now) so that option is out. Maybe I will just look at the numbers and ramp them back somewhat - I'd rather keep it simplistic but still worth doing if you can afford to. It does make sense though that with an improved model arm or two you'd be stronger, faster and less prone to disease... but perhaps not to that extreme!

[GrumpyOldFart]

Any engineer designing a machine specifically to mate mechanically with a different system always takes relative strength and relative wear into account, if he's a decent engineer anyway. Brake pads wear out because they are designed to wear out rather than the rotors, for example.

For that reason I'd expect most cyberware to be specifically engineered to fail under strain before the "meat" to which it attaches. The machinery can be repaired good as new, the meat... well, healing is never perfect.

[markc]

 IMHO if you allow genetic mod muscle to provide a max bonus of +10 then cyber replacement should be +25 over the highest stat bonus you have in the system. But again that is just my opine.
MDC

[TerryTee]

Look at page 58 - Strength increase (O).
It gives a hint of rules similar to what I outlined. Having 4 organic cyberlimbs at MK 5 does not give +160 to St.
You probably need to get down a short set of house rules for all these modifications and bonuses. Adding one more system/part to a body should not simply add more stat bonuses (IMO).
 
-Terry

[markc]

 You could also just have the limbs provide a stat and not a stat bonus, so a Mk1 limb would provide a St between 50 to 70 say and then you can define them further from there. IMHO this is more in line with "replacement" of parts and not addition or strengthening of parts.
MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

I could see someone with a cyberarm being able to curl a car one handed... but only if he has cybershoulders, cyberspine, cyberhips and cyberlegs, definitely skeletal structure and probably improved musculature for most of it as well.

Unless you follow it all the way through the body with cyberware, at some point the weight/force of whatever action you take transfers to the meat. If the meat can't handle it, the meat fails.

[JimiSue]

Only just realised this thread had an update since I last read it!

I think I'm going to go with the point above that the strength modification is a maximum across the whole system. Therefore, applying the 'rule of 9' where the body mass is 1/9 for head and arms and 2/9 for torso and legs, if you had two Mk 5 organic cyber arms and a Mk 5 organic cyber leg you would be able to use 4/9 of the maximum +40 modifier, which for a lack of calculator comes to a final modifier in the high teens - although for limb-only tasks (e.g. crushing something held in a hand) the full modifier could be applied.

I may have to do similar to other parts as well - a top mk organic sensory organ adds +50 to perception... so if you have both eyes, both ears and a nose I'm not sure that should amount to +250. I am tempted to leave the Constitution mod as it stands though - I can belive that the parts will be a good deal more robust than natural ones.

[markc]

I agree that parts will be more durable and should be that way. But way more durable is a question of the game universe IMHO.


 I like the ratio's you have used and think it is a great adaption, IMHO if you could write it up and submit it to the Guild Companion it would help out a lot of other people also playing SM2 or even people looking for ideas in different games.


MDC