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Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: Bishop Odo on April 10, 2009, 01:22:38 AM
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I have been reworking the maps of Jaiman, and Haakatine, in an effort to lean CC3 and I have a few questions, and yes, I have tendency to over think things.
Anyone know what the population of Haakatine is, Lethys is 50k, so I was thinking about 30-40k ?
What?s the forest situation like, considering deforestation, even with Druids added to the mix, what?s the main energy source for Rhakhaan if not the major cities? I was leaning towards sea coal.
Considering Haalkatines geography, I was thinking of Germany and Neuschwanstein Castle, from one angle it looks like it?s in the mountains, yet from the other way is very close to the plains if not the foothills.
Those, where the easiest questions, I was reading the Haakatine book and it was described as a medieval society, I would think that they would be more of pre-industrialized, high Renaissance culture. This is where, I wish there was a UPP or Traveller technology scale designed for fantasy games. Considering the advanced Elvish societies, a little leakage by osmosis would be expected from exports. I would imagine that at the upper levels of society technology like, steam radiator heating, cast iron Franklin stoves, indoor water closets would be appearing, water canals, and locks. I was thinking Elizabethan England, without firearms of course. I was just hoping for some feedback,.
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Somebody in the forum devised his game as victorian horror and it was based in Haalkitaine too.
SW has technology levels too to help us to visualize the setting, I see both Lethys and Haalkitaine as Renaissance, along with Sel-Kai, Kaitaine and N?mar-Tol islands. But jaimani elves are not specially inclined to technology.
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I may be reading this incorrectly, but when I read the Haalkitaine book, I don't see too much evidence of a Renaissance society.
What technologies do we associate with the Renaissance? I would think things like the printing press and gunpowder, as well as the development of the scientific method. I don't see any evidence of those in Rhakhaan. In my campaign, Rhakhaan is a late medieval society (though of course everyone is free to interpret it in their own way).
Late medieval societies (and indeed renaissance ones as well) tended to use animals, wind, wood and water as their main power sources. In Kulthea, we could probably add Magic (Essence, especially).Coal really didn't come into general use (in our world, anyway) until much later.
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In the Haalkitaine book we have a printing press. The Book says gunpowder doesn't work because of essaence flows and Rhakhaan is presented as having tech level Renaissance in the MA 4, if I remember correctly.
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Ah, I guess I stand corrected!
I'll have to reread Haalkitaine...
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That?s one of the problems, I see, in general with fantasy gaming. Generally we use European history as the touchstone so to speak, the terms Renaissance or rebirth, Medieval or Middle Ages all relate to the European experience. That?s ok for player reference, but do the terms Renaissance really apply to a culture or planet that has never suffered though the ?dark ages.? That why I was looking for a technological scale that doesn?t trivialize the lower levels in favor of the galaxy spanning technology.
Firearms seem to be the defining technology, yet if we remove them from the equation, what becomes possible and probable. Considering that the ancient Greeks had water clocks and primitive steam engines, would steam heating or cast iron stoves be such far fetched improbity some 10,000 years later.
About, energy, coal was burned in Elizabethan London, it was limited because of transportation issues more than anything thing else, peat was burned even eariler, I believe. Use of wood as a long term fuel, would be problematic, considering deforests. Even with an aggressive forestry program from an organized government, when would coal become an viable alternative.
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My personal opinion is that the single most important piece of early technology is the Gutenberg press. This enabled the (comparatively) easy reproduction and distribution of knowledge, compared to scribe duplication and block printing. Without this distribution system, knowledge was frequently lost for years, or not distributed widely enough in the first place for full advantage to be taken of it.
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In the Haalkitaine book we have a printing press. The Book says gunpowder doesn't work because of essaence flows and Rhakhaan is presented as having tech level Renaissance in the MA 4, if I remember correctly.
Gunpowder of some kind or another does work, ask to the few people that use(d) it. ;D
Rhakhaan is IMHO a late renaissance kingdom ( 17th/18th Century ) with some discrepancies. They have printing press, they have elevators, they can have some kind of steam power ( but magic is easier, cheaper and more reliable ). There's still a real feudal system, but the literacy and the knowledge makes it so there's a lot of educated people. Thus making for a middle class more important than on Earth. Add to that the effects of the Crowns, the Loremasters and a few other stuff and you can get something ( like a realm ) that at first sight looks weird and on the brink of collapse on itself but that is quite sound.
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One thing that has to be considered when looking at any fantasy world is the effects magic would play in it. One simply fact using earth as an comparison will never be quite right.
For example it would not be out of place for the upper class to have indoor lighting due to permanent light spells on globes or other objects. The medicine level would be in some ways beyond what even modern medicine can do. You mention transportation of coal being an issue, but with magic alot of that can be overcome. Magic could also slow down technological developement, why build elevators when you could levitate said objects. You speak of deforestation but with spells trees could be replaced.
Anyway my point is that magic will effect the society, or in this case the city. Sadly fantasy is simply that and pulled from our imaginations, but we do pull alot from our world's own past. Just depends on how much magic is integrated into the everyday life of the citizens. Just thought it would be something to consider.
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Generally speaking, I look to mundane technology to advance a society, and magic to give it spice. After all, every farmer would benefit from a new plow or letting a field lie fallow for a year, but how many have a Druid helping increase the crop yield. The paradigm of all characters that have a high intelligence must naturally be mages is old and tired. Why are all the great minds like de Vinci considered mages? I generally look to the mundane technology first; after all there are a lot of variables to the equation. For instance, a Magician Guild would promote development of the craft and maintain price fixing, but a strong non magical government would see that control as a possible rival for power. Think of the church in the middle ages, and the papal vs. king power rivalry that existed thought out that period of history. Game mechanics also play into the equation, spell list, duration, spell points and memorized spells all play into the equation. Would magic slow the development of mundane science technology? I just don?t see it, as long as information and ideas can be communicated through books, using a printing press, the natural course of events would lead to more mundane advancements.
In a city of 30.000, or a nation of millions, I just don?t see magic being used to heat and provide cooking for 75-80% of the population. The need to address transportation issues in commerce, would facilitate both a developed road system and if feasible a cannel system with locks.
In the typical struggle for power we could add, merchants, and guilds, to the typical mix of temples, mage guild and nobles, making for a more diverse political environment.
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"After all, every farmer would benefit from a new plow or letting a field lie fallow for a year, but how many have a Druid helping increase the crop yield"
I think that happens more then not. It would become a personal decision for a being with that power to do something like that, but I think it happens. "Orhan loves you! Just look at your Fields!" or "The Sea Dragon adores you! Just look at your Fields." Those are miracles right??? Most people are taught to fear Magic, or nature. So they avoid it. At the same time there is only so much a single person can do, and only so many are capable of doing it. If you spend your days just reviving fields you would get very little done... so perhaps you hold off. I never got the impression magic was a replacement for tools.
A Blessing on the lands and farms could be done during the Festivals. A large group of Priests or Druids (depending upon the location and mind set) across the empire, go out and bless the fields? Could a lone priest go around his parish and bless the lands - that could very well be the thing you are talking about. I would say it is all in how you present it, also the Priests are not at the beck and call of the serfs, so it has to be special.
"The paradigm of all characters that have a high intelligence must naturally be mages is old and tired."
I have never heard that! I would think that the Dumbest would be so ambitious to be mages. The things they have to do and face to gain their magic. The places they have to go and the deals they have to make. Maybe I am a Mage bigot?
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A Blessing on the lands and farms could be done during the Festivals. A large group of Priests or Druids (depending upon the location and mind set) across the empire, go out and bless the fields? Could a lone priest go around his parish and bless the lands - that could very well be the thing you are talking about. I would say it is all in how you present it, also the Priests are not at the beck and call of the serfs, so it has to be special.
That's not so different from how things used to be. Many of our present day festivals have their origins in such. The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work.
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"The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work."
I have been to a few of those festivals (ummmm Really Real World)... lots of beer! No noticeable growth.
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"The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work."
I have been to a few of those festivals (ummmm Really Real World)... lots of beer! No noticeable growth.
Well, I thought of saying something along the lines that the difference would be that in a fantasy world, the spells would actually work, but decided that might offend some people, so rephrased it.
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I hear you and agree. And agree that there is no reason to slap at someones faith.
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Technological advances vs magical ones?
Why reinvent the wheel all over again?
I'm sure there are some hardcore tech researchers but magic would certainly slow progress down.
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How accessible is magic to the common people in your campaign?
If your local peasant can't afford to have, say, broken bones or kidney stones healed at the temple, then as far as they're concerned temple healing does not exist, and scientific inquiry will proceed apace. That goes double if your local middle-class can't afford to have them treated, and tenfold if minor nobility can't afford to have minor lacerations attended to within a half hour.
The same goes for any other technology you can think of: if magi and priests aren't standing by waiting for some commoner to need their services for a few bronze; if alchemists aren't cranking out talismans of haste to couriers and stone destruction to miners for less than the cost of a small house; the magic may as well not exist and people will be looking for a way to do the things they do faster, better, cheaper -- and the "Magic obsoletes technology" argument holds no water.
Now, if someone like the Loremasters are actually discouraging inquiry into certain areas of knowledge, that would at least be internally consistent...
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How accessible is magic to the common people in your campaign?
If your local peasant can't afford to have, say, broken bones or kidney stones healed at the temple, then as far as they're concerned temple healing does not exist, and scientific inquiry will proceed apace. That goes double if your local middle-class can't afford to have them treated, and tenfold if minor nobility can't afford to have minor lacerations attended to within a half hour
The same goes for any other technology you can think of: if magi and priests aren't standing by waiting for some commoner to need their services for a few bronze; if alchemists aren't cranking out talismans of haste to couriers and stone destruction to miners for less than the cost of a small house; the magic may as well not exist and people will be looking for a way to do the things they do faster, better, cheaper -- and the "Magic obsoletes technology" argument holds no water.
Now, if someone like the Loremasters are actually discouraging inquiry into certain areas of knowledge, that would at least be internally consistent...
I tend to prefer magic items to less common, and with the RM system's non-magical bonuses for items it is possible.
As far as the healing goes, that will largely be determined on a community-to-community basis. In a larger community, the peasants probably don't have access to the temples's healing magics usually. In smaller, close-knit communities, the priest(s) probably know everyone and will find it hard to say no (and probably doesn't want to say no).
As the majority of the fantasy games I am either in or run are based upon a modified middle-ages technology any technological advances are extremely rare so they are only found in the hands of the rich & powerful.
I don't think that the Loremasters actively discourage technological advancement - mostly I feel that is a product of having other avenues of learning, i.e. magic. We here on Earth would likely be less advanced technologically if we had workable magic to use & learn, as resources would have been diverted to the study of magic to get things done.
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I think in small communities the Priests are asking for donations, so there is some expectation and obligation to help as best they can. The difference in needs of a large temple to a small temple must be light years. In the big city the temples are competing, constantly training who they can, buying supplies and foods and animals ect. In a small community the temple it is a shrine or small building and most of the people donate time to repair or build on and maybe even take turns feeding the Priest(s) or donating food. The donated money would be part of the Tith that goes up the hill to the larger centres. As long as the village could offer money...
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- mostly I feel that is a product of having other avenues of learning, i.e. magic. We here on Earth would likely be less advanced technologically if we had workable magic to use & learn, as resources would have been diverted to the study of magic to get things done.
Yeah that was my thought when I mentioned the idea of magic affecting technology advancement. How much money from patrons, such as goverments, churchs even guilds is diverted into magic research to come up with solutions, over technology ones. Even if after hours, monthes or years they decide magic would not be the feasible solution it was time that could of been spent on a more mudane solution.
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As far as the healing goes, that will largely be determined on a community-to-community basis. In a larger community, the peasants probably don't have access to the temples's healing magics usually. In smaller, close-knit communities, the priest(s) probably know everyone and will find it hard to say no (and probably doesn't want to say no).
Even in smaller communities, it's not simply a matter of the Priest being willing to help, but being able. Unless your village Priests are Level 10+, or are laden with adders and multipliers, there's lots of things that a village will need magically that are simply out of the reach of the local Priest that the local physician could handle. It would only take so many farm accidents wherein more people needed healing spells than were available for someone to start saying "There must be a better way."
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It quickly becomes a question of economics.
Let?s do some quick assumptions ?
? The average level of interesting spells (healing, speed growth for large areas?) is 10.
? 1 in 100 is a spell user
? 1 in 10 of spell users are capable of casting level 10 spells
? The average number of PPs available for such a spell user is 30. (1,5, average level 10, x2 multiplier)
? 1 in 3 spell users have spell lists relevant to the population.
Doing the math, we have 1 person of 3000 (1/100 x 1/10 x 1/3) capable of casting spells interesting for the general population. Those people can cast 3 relevant spells per day. (30 PP, level 10). In a perfectly fair world, this would give an allocation of one spell per 1000 people per day. And I truly believe that the above numbers are too high, but let?s run with them.
1 person in 1000. So, assume you are a priestess of Eissa. You can cure a homeless child?s pneumonia and then let it out on the street to catch another bout in a few weeks, or you can cure a nobleman?s sprained ankle and charge him enough money to run an orphanage for a year. You would probably hate the mathematics of it, but in the quest for doing the most good you would heal the nobleman.
Even in this very optimistic calculation, I don?t see the general population seeing much magic outside of festivals and such.
Note: I think that 1/100 spell users is too high for most worlds, 1/10 at level 10+ is also probably too high. 1 in 3 having spell lists that are interesting also high.
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? 1 in 10 of spell users are capable of casting level 10 spells
This is definately one of the factors I don't agree with. For me the "average" spell-user (and just about any other profession, as well) is closer to 10th level as I feel the first three levels are your apprenticeship / training levels and the next few are low-professional, then average professional, then high-professional, then expert and so on.
This means that the "average" spell user probably has a couple of their base-lists to 15th so that the majority of spell-users can cast 10th level spells. Of course, that doesn't automatically mean they have the spells needed or that there are enough spell-users to go around - that is entirely dependant upon the setting and how prevalent magic-users happen to be. Except:
Even in this very optimistic calculation, I don?t see the general population seeing much magic outside of festivals and such. Note: I think that 1/100 spell users is too high for most worlds, 1/10 at level 10+ is also probably too high. 1 in 3 having spell lists that are interesting also high.
As in RM anyone can learn magic (it isn't required to have special "blood" or whatever) then I think you would see much, much more magic than your "optimistic calculation." Not necessarily world-shattering magics mind you, but the farmer that doesn't learn a few spells to help out his animals and/or crops is going to be seriously lacking.
In a world full of magical monsters and other magical stuff, don't you think that the "average" human would have to adapt to the world in order to survive? Especially if they are able to, as it is set up in RM.
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That?s one of the problems, I see, in general with fantasy gaming. Generally we use European history as the touchstone so to speak, the terms Renaissance or rebirth, Medieval or Middle Ages all relate to the European experience. That?s ok for player reference, but do the terms Renaissance really apply to a culture or planet that has never suffered though the ?dark ages.? That why I was looking for a technological scale that doesn?t trivialize the lower levels in favor of the galaxy spanning technology.
I agree, but not only about technological levels, but even how the settlements would be arranged. Do you think it a good idea to have wide open villages next to the "Dark Forest of Demons and Dragons (and a smattering of goblinoids and other unsavory creatures)"? I think not! How about walled compounds? Ditches and spiked ridges? Magical wards? Sentries? All that stuff would be needed when it is a completely real possibility that you and/or your friends & family could be carried off in the night by bugbears.
About, energy, coal was burned in Elizabethan London, it was limited because of transportation issues more than anything thing else, peat was burned even eariler, I believe. Use of wood as a long term fuel, would be problematic, considering deforests. Even with an aggressive forestry program from an organized government, when would coal become an viable alternative.
Except, that being a woodsman in a fantasy world is a very, very dangerous profession - much more so than the "Deadliest Catch" fishermen of our world. Plus, the forests themselves would fight back. In the massively dangerous world full of monsters, human population would not be nearly as high as our middle-ages population. So deforestation would probably not be a huge problem, and stay that way for a loooooonnnnngggg time.
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I recently picked up Gary Gygax?s Living Fantasy book and it has some great ideas and, frankly, it fits with what I was thinking. While it doesn?t have a Technology scale, the general logic behind why there would be some technology advance or improvements over the ?historical? models are interesting.
Some have suggested that with magic there would be no reason to develop some mundane technology to help with the everyday problems of life or at least there development would be retarded due to lack of interest. Considering, that SW has nations that are organized and at least several thousand years old, I would suggest that time factor would be moot, but as with all thing, to each his own.
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Well SW has at least one other point to influence technological development: the fact that a very-very-very high tech culture has existed there before and have left things behind. (More than one, actually) Even the rarity of them does not mitigate the fact that they are there; any at all would be a far cry from what we have had here on Earth. (I think......) Of course, the few items found could be considered as magic (until a mage casts detect magic on them and it comes up nada).
That said, the amount of magic prevelant on Kulthea would mean that there are many areas where they wouldn't bother to even try to develop technologies - or, at the very least, be extremely stunted compared to "our" Middle Ages and/or Renaissance technology. Even after thousands of years. Remember, most people are very short-sighted and usually only look to the now and the past, thinking about the future was for when you had time to think (which wasn't very often).
Even in smaller communities, it's not simply a matter of the Priest being willing to help, but being able. Unless your village Priests are Level 10+, or are laden with adders and multipliers, there's lots of things that a village will need magically that are simply out of the reach of the local Priest that the local physician could handle. It would only take so many farm accidents wherein more people needed healing spells than were available for someone to start saying "There must be a better way."
You forget that even in our world many of these "better ways" were classified as heresy by the church for centuries. Just imagine if the priest was able to lay his hands upon your broken leg and completely repair it. Would you be more likely to live by his stritcures, or less? Not to mention the god/godwss itself standing before you and telling you what to do and not to do.
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So you recommend the gary gygax living fantasy book?
I have not read it.
However i think your ending point is that the civilizations in SW are much older than ours. So in the end it took them longer to get to the point of technology advancement they do have.
Also with some of the above mentioned math, there is assumptions on the system used if a person was using say the RMSS system instead the amount of pp would be double. A 10th level magic caster with 1 rank of PP develeopement per level so 6 X 10 +5 (Em bonus) = 65 PP so 6 10th level spells per day without multiply or adder. But I think grumpy's model of alot of lower level rune spells being around to use would help some. Anyway just pointing out the different systems play a part in the math used.
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As in RM anyone can learn magic (it isn't required to have special "blood" or whatever) then I think you would see much, much more magic than your "optimistic calculation." Not necessarily world-shattering magics mind you, but the farmer that doesn't learn a few spells to help out his animals and/or crops is going to be seriously lacking.
Arms Realm users can only learn spell lists to level 5, and then only if they're willing to spend a whole lot of time focussed on that and nothing else. (20-25 points for a 5% chance to learn the list.) Not many farmers will have the time or money on hand to do that.
In a world full of magical monsters and other magical stuff, don't you think that the "average" human would have to adapt to the world in order to survive? Especially if they are able to, as it is set up in RM.
Is it really a feature of your world that the average farmer knows spells?
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It wasn't uncommon for many farmers and others to practice various "magical" rites to improve crops, bring prosperity, ward of evil spirits and such like. In a magical world, these things may very well work. Possibly not very well, but there may be small time magic of a cantrip level.
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Is it really a feature of your world that the average farmer knows spells?
Not so far, but that is because I like to limit who can and cannot use magic - usually by it being a special ability. So if you don't have IT, then you can't do any magic other than use the items that have been designed for use by any/everyone.
I have been tinkering with a more magical world, though, where planting season is this whole big hubbalo where rituals are performed and magic is used (both arcane and divine) to ensure fast & healthy crops. This means that the community doesn't need as much acreage because it's a dangerous world out there and expansion is very, very costly. Of course, other aspects of life are more integrated with magic, such as crafting - from thatching to blacksmithing, and everything inbetween.
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Arms Realm users can only learn spell lists to level 5, and then only if they're willing to spend a whole lot of time focussed on that and nothing else. (20-25 points for a 5% chance to learn the list.) Not many farmers will have the time or money on hand to do that.
I had a 7th level fighter (RMSS) that was modeled a bit after batman (really the picture of Lasiveren the dark from the old DnD Rogues Gallery). I had a few Mentalism spells, nothing past 3rd level or so. Those few spells so made my character! A couple of Anticipate spells (melee and missile) and the shadow and silent spells made it possible for my character to be so much more than if I tried it with regular skills.
So yes, it is still of great benefit to learn even a few spells.
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So yes, it is still of great benefit to learn even a few spells.
I never said it isn't, only that doing so is likely to be beyond the means of the vast majority of Kulthea-as-described.
Your 7th level fighter is an adventurer, not a farmer. Presumably he had access to a teacher and writings (perhaps funded by the proceeds of past adventures), and enough leisure time to read those texts and practice casting until it worked. That's not going to be the case someone who works sunrise to sunset, is illiterate or at best barely literate enough to read the NY Post. (Which is not the case for farmers today, but was for most of human history.)
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If you take a bunch of our world middle-ages farmers and then tell them you can learn magic to help, but only if you take hours out of each day to do so, then yes, likely there would be very few who do. But there would be some who do.
But, the worlds we are talking about have had magic in them for thousands of years of human development. That makes all the difference in the world. Even if done very slowly, eventually there would be numerous farmers with a few spells and new farmers (i.e. their kids) would learn from them. They would see the importance of it, and it would be a family legacy. Perhaps certain magics would be attributed to certain families. That could be a cool bit of flavor for a campaign setting.
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Regarding what I posted earlier about people in our world using simple charms etc, that could be very low power spells, there are also things like the Maypole, which could be considered to be a source of ritual magic. Even though the participants may have minimal magical power, a large number of people performing a ritual together could have fairly potent effects. Doesn't require much in the way of training, and people did do them.
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So you recommend the gary gygax living fantasy book?
Yes, I would and you can find it on for a good price on EBay.
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Your 7th level fighter is an adventurer, not a farmer. Presumably he had access to a teacher and writings (perhaps funded by the proceeds of past adventures), and enough leisure time to read those texts and practice casting until it worked. That's not going to be the case someone who works sunrise to sunset, is illiterate or at best barely literate enough to read the NY Post.
You don't have to be literate to learn spells; you just need to have a teacher instead of a book. As for working sunrise to sunset, that is very true during the busy seasons, but farmers in most regions have long down periods, where they have months of short work days and they can fill those winter hours practicing spells as well as carving a new set of wooden utensils or retelling old stories.
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Your mileage may vary. If you have spell casting peasants, then just modify the numbers to your setting and you will still get a prediction on how much magic the normal person will see.
Our setting is based on a more mundane version of the world. Most people living in villages will never have traveled more than one days worth of distance, and if they have traveled further its to visit the closest major church. Literacy is low. People that knows magic are rare enough so they spend their time casting spells for, or teaching, those with serious money. A peasant will most likely never in his life experience magic outside of festivals.
Non religious magic users are looked upon with fear and distrust, as are "adventurers" (People from out of town steal, murder and pillage. Everyone knows that.) Monsters are rare enough so that most people believe that they are only rumors to scare children with. In the cases where monsters attack a village, the villagers expect their local baron to send his best men (men with Armour, and Swords!) to kill them.