Topic: Revised SW books

[Sloth]

Mostly in broader sense, major languages governed by geography with splintering and mingling in bordering areas and some oddities caused by history, such as most people of older generation Lotani and Jameri being able to communicate(grovel) with Quaidu not able to understand the speech of lesser mortals while younger generation of Quaidu being well versed of the language of their neighbors while their Lotani and Jameri neighbors won't bother with gibberings of rabble, to take an example from Xa'ar.

In particular I see no reason for there to be "common" language, as especially in reduced-literacy areas of our planet there tends to be a discernible dialectual differences between every village or two and every succesful trader learns to understand the people they are dealing with in order of not being cheated.

[Mordred]

Not having original Emers I have no opinion on their rehaul, but Jaiman might need section on linguistics of areas/cultures/races.

Agree. I would like to see something like the old MERP races appendix, but focused on Kulthea and specifically on Jaiman and Emer. And yes, I got RMFRP Races and Cultures, but it's too generic, suitable for creating your own fantasy setting.

[RandalThor]

On the topic of languages, I feel a bit differently than most of you, I feel that instead of there being different languages between Rhakhaan, Xa-ar, Wulris, & Tanara, there would be just local accents of a base language. Meaning, it would be more like English, as spoken by Americans, Irish, Scottish, and the English.

My reasoning for this is that these are very obviously highly conservative cultures; think about it: they have been largely static in technological and population growth for around 6,000 years. And, they started out with a higher tech-base than we here on Earth had 6,000 years ago - at lest, most of them did. So, why are they not in rocket-ships going to other planets? Why are they still mostly in the middle-ages, with only a few instances of renaissance era technology?

Language changes when it needs to; when new concepts and ideas are introduced. In such static cultures the language would not change so much, I don't think. So, while there should be different languages across Kulthea, these would mostly be tied to different races and ethnic groups, but not necessarily due to distance and time. Not that there wouldn't be some difference between the languages used by a race/ethnic group that lives in different areas on the planet, but that maybe, just maybe, these differences aren't enough to call them different languages altogether.

Just a though.


Plus: It sucks when the PCs can't speak with the locals (trust me, I am dealing with that now), it makes it really hard - which is why all the alien humans on Stargate spoke English, even though that language hadn't been created when they got separated from Earth. 

[jdale]

I think there are plenty of examples of languages changing for no good reason. Your point about game convenience is totally valid though. (Though personally I would make them related, e.g. at -3 ranks. That allows some communication but with limits, and also makes it cheaper and faster to learn the variant.)

Languages are more likely to shift slowly if there is travel or communication over large distances, and if there is a strong written tradition, especially if there are texts governing people's lives that are consulted regularly (could be law or religion). The consequence of a strong written tradition coupled with little language change is that these races will have access to an extremely deep historical record. Could be good or bad, depending.

[PhillipAEllis]

Another possibility, following on from jdale's remarks, is to treat the basic language similarly to Medieval Latin after the development of the Romance languages. That is, each region has its own language, but a common lingua franca in either an older language or older dialect. Or, as in late Anglo-Saxon England, a range of dialects with the equivalent of the dialect of Essex as the race's lingua franca.

[Mordred]

I dislike the concept of lingua franca because players tend to ignore languages knowledge. Of course it's right when History states that there is this kind of language. Examples of this one can be Latin in medieval Europe (but even Latin was only 'common' among scholars, I doubt you could use Latin to talk to a peasant), or Old Emerian in Haestra. I don't know if Rhaya can be considered a common language for whole Jaiman, though.

Related to different languages or only dialect variations, I think about the example that we had in real life in the Iberian Peninsula in Middle Ages. At the beginning of VIII century (iirc), the only languages were Latin and Basque. Three-four centuries later, after a Muslim invasion, there were at least six. Basque remained, Arab appeared, and Latin evolved into a myriad of different languages, all with their own dialects.

Concluding, there are many factors that make changes in regional languages. Technological advances can be one, but there are others like invasions or isolation that makes impossible maintaining a common standard one.

[Mordred]

Back to topic, I would like to see an overhaul of Jaiman, because I think it's the most outdated above all.

[PhillipAEllis]

Thank you, Mordred!

[vroomfogle]

The assumption in SW is that local languages vary quite a bit and may have several dialects (Rhaya in Jaiman, Shay in Emer), however Erlini is used as a common trade language where needed although it is not as widely used on the whole.   Erlini, and for that matter the other Elvish tongues, have been less susceptible to change because of the much longer lifespans of the elvish races.  Although most local residents won't know Erlini, most traders will know a smattering.

[Terry K. Amthor]

It looks like Jaiman has pulled ahead. As I go through the old text, it definitely needs a complete revision. It was a curious combination of a continent overview and then a bunch of specific place-layouts.

I'm curious why Eidolon is at #2. There's not much I'd like to change about this book (suggestions?). I think it did get the most positive reviews of all the Shadow World books (I sure did pour my heart into that map, hand coloring it. I have yet to reproduce that look digitally, but I may try again with a Paint program, as I have not been happy with what I can do with PS.

Of course, since we can no longer produce a printed poster map like the old days, I'd be placing parts of the color Sel-kai map in the book in the guide section of the book, which should be handy. And I do have a high-rez PDF of the entire city we would include for viewing, and those who have access to a large-format printer.

[Mordred]

Agree with Terry. Eidolon is the last book in my list, but just because I think it's the most complete of all. Haalktaine might need adventures, Emer I and II has a lot of fields to expand  (more detailed regions, adventures, etc.), but Jaiman is the oldest, the only one without an Eidolon Studios version and yes, it's just the story of the crowns, an overview of the continent, and then good lay-outs and adventures. Many stuff can be added indeed.

Finally, I would like to suggest a revision for the Iron Wind as you did with Cloudlords. I consider Elor's story a masterpiece, but I miss more detailed maps as well as adventures and a 6050-6054 TE setting.

[yammahoper]

Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.

The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good.  However, Eidolon is rock solid.  So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.

[markc]

Large Scans: I do not know how expensive it would be but some UPS and FedEx stores (I think they bought someone out) have large scanning capability. Also if you know someone in a architectural design firm or with the City Dept of Public works sometimes you can get them to do it for cheep. 
 But since I have moved away from the big city I do not have a good idea on $.
MDC

[Terry K. Amthor]

Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.

The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good.  However, Eidolon is rock solid.  So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.

Kaitaine will come with Emer IV. I have it outlined, but it's on the back burner until Emer III is out.

[yammahoper]

Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.

The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good.  However, Eidolon is rock solid.  So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.

Kaitaine will come with Emer IV. I have it outlined, but it's on the back burner until Emer III is out.

Excellent.  Covering any of the large kingdoms/nations/cities in greater detail would please me.  Keep chugging Terry.   

[Terry K. Amthor]

I'm about to close the poll on July 16th, but I might mention that the new Emer I edition will include the Jerak Ahrenreth Ahrenthrok layouts from the long out of print original Emer book from the old boxed set. And both Emers will have lots of new adventure material and color city maps.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Last chance to vote in the SW book revision poll!

[Tommy]

I'm curious why Eidolon is at #2. There's not much I'd like to change about this book (suggestions?). I think it did get the most positive reviews of all the Shadow World books (I sure did pour my heart into that map, hand coloring it. I have yet to reproduce that look digitally, but I may try again with a Paint program, as I have not been happy with what I can do with PS.

I think many of us wants an updated timeline for Eidolon. The rest of the book doesn´t need any change.
A timeline update for all published books once per year would be the dream:)

[RandalThor]

I chose Haalkitaine and Jaiman, because Terry is already doing some Emer stuff and my PCs are in Jaiman. [Insert selfishness here.]

[egdcltd]

One book that isn't listed that I've just thought of from reading Loremaster Legacy is the Iron Wind.