Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: Terry K. Amthor on June 22, 2013, 08:54:41 AM
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As I've mentioned, we have several SW books in the queue for revision and re-release as PDF and color hardcopy. There are several factors involved in each book of course (mostly my time) but I'm curious what people would most like to see. There will be a follow-up about what you'd like to see in any revision. This is completely non-binding; I am just curious. Feel free to add additional comments here.
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Eidolon was too epic to leave it languishing. After Emer, Jaiman might need some TLC.
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I'm happy any way, as I'd collect them as inspirational reading for my own efforts at module designing. You've been doing such a splendid job for years, and it's a pleasure to read them.
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Any book of Shadow World is cool to have, but since I play mostly on Jaiman that what I would like to see.
After that, Emer ! ;-)
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I don't mind which, but I'd love MORE adventures in them - just like Eidolon had.
I have zero creativity when it comes to adventures and I need my hand held every step of the way - the adventure ideas in the Emer books was far too vague for me. (I had the problem of being the only person of my friends who wanted to learn the Rolemaster rules so I got stuck with being the GM by default. It was GM or not play at all).
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Adventures will definitely be completely redone and greatly expanded for the Emer books (plus they both need some other content work). Jaiman is so old that it needs a content overhaul. Haalkitaine didn't really have any adventures at all, so those could be added. I'm not sure what could be added to Eidolon...
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I think Eidolon is pretty much all there unless there's some new info in the History to e added?
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What would be great would be if Jaiman could be completely overhauled so that it was actually several books, like Emer is, similar to Xa-ar and Cloudlords.
Bit of a major task that though.
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since most of my sw books are very worn, I would like to see more jaiman/haalkitaine.
the covers on all my jaiman books have pretty much had it, and are well taped on.
I would REALLY like to see all the jaiman contents(sourcebook, norek, haalkintaine, etc) in a hardcover sourcebook tome. :D
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since most of my sw books are very worn, I would like to see more jaiman/haalkitaine.
the covers on all my jaiman books have pretty much had it, and are well taped on.
I would REALLY like to see all the jaiman contents(sourcebook, norek, haalkintaine, etc) in a hardcover sourcebook tome. :D
As much as I liked Norek, I'm afraid that book is lost to us. Even if we had the rights, it would be far too difficult to reconstruct the city map and all the layouts. I fear all those digital files are long gone. I kept files for my own books, so I still have the old files for the Eidolon layouts. I kind of wish I still had my original hand-inked Sel-kai map, even without all the labels.
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I guess Norek's author still hasn't been found?
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I guess Norek's author still hasn't been found?
Even if he was, all that we would probably release is a scanned PDF.
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How Cannon was the content - would it be time for a complete re-write anyway?
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How Cannon was the content - would it be time for a complete re-write anyway?
It could probably do with a re-write, to bring it up to speed with the rest of the continent and fix some errors, but will that be possible without the permission of the original author?
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As for Eidolon:
As I remember (it has been a few years since I read it) but I always thought Sel Kai was awesome, but Eidolon itself was little touched upon...
Might need some ship designs added, or more building lay outs.
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As much as I liked Norek, I'm afraid that book is lost to us. Even if we had the rights, it would be far too difficult to reconstruct the city map and all the layouts. I fear all those digital files are long gone.
Personally, I did not like the Norek map all that much. I would love to see you guys get a cartographer like the one for Harn, those cities and towns were awesome. (You would just have to make sure he/she knows that SW is not a western European-clone setting, but a high-fantasy setting.)
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Not having original Emers I have no opinion on their rehaul, but Jaiman might need section on linguistics of areas/cultures/races.
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G'day, Sloth!
Did you know that the RMFRP cultures & races covered some of the SW races? I've a copy in PDF so, if you're interested, I can fill you in with more detail if you like. :)
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I have a copy as well, but it gives me no insight on how come Lugorki from different tribes from different ends of continent with no contact for hundreds of years speak same language..
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*nodnod* If I was GMing I'd probably wave my hands at that point, invoking their equivalent of the Navigators/long distance communication. Otherwise I'd settle for ruling by fiat and saying their languages have evolved so they're different.
What ideas come to you, regarding this point?
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Mostly in broader sense, major languages governed by geography with splintering and mingling in bordering areas and some oddities caused by history, such as most people of older generation Lotani and Jameri being able to communicate(grovel) with Quaidu not able to understand the speech of lesser mortals while younger generation of Quaidu being well versed of the language of their neighbors while their Lotani and Jameri neighbors won't bother with gibberings of rabble, to take an example from Xa'ar.
In particular I see no reason for there to be "common" language, as especially in reduced-literacy areas of our planet there tends to be a discernible dialectual differences between every village or two and every succesful trader learns to understand the people they are dealing with in order of not being cheated.
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Not having original Emers I have no opinion on their rehaul, but Jaiman might need section on linguistics of areas/cultures/races.
Agree. I would like to see something like the old MERP races appendix, but focused on Kulthea and specifically on Jaiman and Emer. And yes, I got RMFRP Races and Cultures, but it's too generic, suitable for creating your own fantasy setting.
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On the topic of languages, I feel a bit differently than most of you, I feel that instead of there being different languages between Rhakhaan, Xa-ar, Wulris, & Tanara, there would be just local accents of a base language. Meaning, it would be more like English, as spoken by Americans, Irish, Scottish, and the English.
My reasoning for this is that these are very obviously highly conservative cultures; think about it: they have been largely static in technological and population growth for around 6,000 years. And, they started out with a higher tech-base than we here on Earth had 6,000 years ago - at lest, most of them did. So, why are they not in rocket-ships going to other planets? Why are they still mostly in the middle-ages, with only a few instances of renaissance era technology?
Language changes when it needs to; when new concepts and ideas are introduced. In such static cultures the language would not change so much, I don't think. So, while there should be different languages across Kulthea, these would mostly be tied to different races and ethnic groups, but not necessarily due to distance and time. Not that there wouldn't be some difference between the languages used by a race/ethnic group that lives in different areas on the planet, but that maybe, just maybe, these differences aren't enough to call them different languages altogether.
Just a though.
Plus: It sucks when the PCs can't speak with the locals (trust me, I am dealing with that now), it makes it really hard - which is why all the alien humans on Stargate spoke English, even though that language hadn't been created when they got separated from Earth. :o
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I think there are plenty of examples of languages changing for no good reason. Your point about game convenience is totally valid though. (Though personally I would make them related, e.g. at -3 ranks. That allows some communication but with limits, and also makes it cheaper and faster to learn the variant.)
Languages are more likely to shift slowly if there is travel or communication over large distances, and if there is a strong written tradition, especially if there are texts governing people's lives that are consulted regularly (could be law or religion). The consequence of a strong written tradition coupled with little language change is that these races will have access to an extremely deep historical record. Could be good or bad, depending.
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Another possibility, following on from jdale's remarks, is to treat the basic language similarly to Medieval Latin after the development of the Romance languages. That is, each region has its own language, but a common lingua franca in either an older language or older dialect. Or, as in late Anglo-Saxon England, a range of dialects with the equivalent of the dialect of Essex as the race's lingua franca.
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I dislike the concept of lingua franca because players tend to ignore languages knowledge. Of course it's right when History states that there is this kind of language. Examples of this one can be Latin in medieval Europe (but even Latin was only 'common' among scholars, I doubt you could use Latin to talk to a peasant), or Old Emerian in Haestra. I don't know if Rhaya can be considered a common language for whole Jaiman, though.
Related to different languages or only dialect variations, I think about the example that we had in real life in the Iberian Peninsula in Middle Ages. At the beginning of VIII century (iirc), the only languages were Latin and Basque. Three-four centuries later, after a Muslim invasion, there were at least six. Basque remained, Arab appeared, and Latin evolved into a myriad of different languages, all with their own dialects.
Concluding, there are many factors that make changes in regional languages. Technological advances can be one, but there are others like invasions or isolation that makes impossible maintaining a common standard one.
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Back to topic, I would like to see an overhaul of Jaiman, because I think it's the most outdated above all.
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Thank you, Mordred!
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The assumption in SW is that local languages vary quite a bit and may have several dialects (Rhaya in Jaiman, Shay in Emer), however Erlini is used as a common trade language where needed although it is not as widely used on the whole. Erlini, and for that matter the other Elvish tongues, have been less susceptible to change because of the much longer lifespans of the elvish races. Although most local residents won't know Erlini, most traders will know a smattering.
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It looks like Jaiman has pulled ahead. As I go through the old text, it definitely needs a complete revision. It was a curious combination of a continent overview and then a bunch of specific place-layouts.
I'm curious why Eidolon is at #2. There's not much I'd like to change about this book (suggestions?). I think it did get the most positive reviews of all the Shadow World books (I sure did pour my heart into that map, hand coloring it. I have yet to reproduce that look digitally, but I may try again with a Paint program, as I have not been happy with what I can do with PS.
Of course, since we can no longer produce a printed poster map like the old days, I'd be placing parts of the color Sel-kai map in the book in the guide section of the book, which should be handy. And I do have a high-rez PDF of the entire city we would include for viewing, and those who have access to a large-format printer.
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Agree with Terry. Eidolon is the last book in my list, but just because I think it's the most complete of all. Haalktaine might need adventures, Emer I and II has a lot of fields to expand (more detailed regions, adventures, etc.), but Jaiman is the oldest, the only one without an Eidolon Studios version and yes, it's just the story of the crowns, an overview of the continent, and then good lay-outs and adventures. Many stuff can be added indeed.
Finally, I would like to suggest a revision for the Iron Wind as you did with Cloudlords. I consider Elor's story a masterpiece, but I miss more detailed maps as well as adventures and a 6050-6054 TE setting.
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Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.
The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good. However, Eidolon is rock solid. So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.
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Large Scans: I do not know how expensive it would be but some UPS and FedEx stores (I think they bought someone out) have large scanning capability. Also if you know someone in a architectural design firm or with the City Dept of Public works sometimes you can get them to do it for cheep.
But since I have moved away from the big city I do not have a good idea on $.
MDC
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Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.
The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good. However, Eidolon is rock solid. So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.
Kaitaine will come with Emer IV. I have it outlined, but it's on the back burner until Emer III is out.
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Eidolon is an amazing source book, as is Jaiman.
The Emer rewrites are very good, so I imagine a rewrite of Jaiman would be very good. However, Eidolon is rock solid. So much so a I would rather see the island of Ciros with Kataine written up than Eidolon rehashed.
Kaitaine will come with Emer IV. I have it outlined, but it's on the back burner until Emer III is out.
Excellent. Covering any of the large kingdoms/nations/cities in greater detail would please me. Keep chugging Terry. ;D
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I'm about to close the poll on July 16th, but I might mention that the new Emer I edition will include the Jerak Ahrenreth Ahrenthrok layouts from the long out of print original Emer book from the old boxed set. And both Emers will have lots of new adventure material and color city maps.
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Last chance to vote in the SW book revision poll!
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I'm curious why Eidolon is at #2. There's not much I'd like to change about this book (suggestions?). I think it did get the most positive reviews of all the Shadow World books (I sure did pour my heart into that map, hand coloring it. I have yet to reproduce that look digitally, but I may try again with a Paint program, as I have not been happy with what I can do with PS.
I think many of us wants an updated timeline for Eidolon. The rest of the book doesn´t need any change.
A timeline update for all published books once per year would be the dream:)
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I chose Haalkitaine and Jaiman, because Terry is already doing some Emer stuff and my PCs are in Jaiman. [Insert selfishness here.]
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One book that isn't listed that I've just thought of from reading Loremaster Legacy is the Iron Wind.
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Quote from: Terry Amthor on June 28, 2013, 02:25:30 AM
I'm curious why Eidolon is at #2. There's not much I'd like to change about this book (suggestions?). I think it did get the most positive reviews of all the Shadow World books (I sure did pour my heart into that map, hand coloring it. I have yet to reproduce that look digitally, but I may try again with a Paint program, as I have not been happy with what I can do with PS.
The reason I voted for a redo of Eidolon is because I feel it is self contained, while it should be tied in to both Jaiman and Emer. Not enough flying boats in the module, not enough on foreign trade and exotic produce being brought in. As a city it is grand and worked out in good detail, but I would like to see more interesting details worked out (like the flying ships and Eidolon itself) and how it could serve as a base of operations between Jaiman and Emer. Introduce lots of intrigue between the factions and build on the myriad of story lines from the Jaiman and Emer modules.
Anyway: just some ideas...
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Working on Eidolon and adding in the RMSS/RMFRP stats, and it seems like our busy stat converter person included all the skills and spells for the NPCs in the back of the book! So I'll be including those for the RM2 stats now of course *sigh*. I'm hoping to add a couple of new adventures, a little more information about trade and relations with other centers, and maybe a few ship/skyship plans if I feel the urge. Perhaps the Naristral and the Starwind
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Can't wait to see how it comes out. Eidolon always was the best city module, next to Minas Tirith, so anything added could make it stand out more!
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Gentlemen,
I was just looking through my favorite module "The Iron Wind" and two things came up. Being almost 49yrs old now my eyes aren't what they used to be and I could barely read that small print that was used all those years ago. If you ever get around to a second edition I would gladly pay for an extra 10 pages or so to blow up the maps and use a larger font. Second on the back cover is a reference to two "upcoming modules" Cynor:the Cursed Oasis and The Gates of Geheanna. Is there a possibility of these two being resurrected and brought back to us or are they lost forever?
Thanks for your hard work guys
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Gentlemen,
I was just looking through my favorite module "The Iron Wind" and two things came up. Being almost 49yrs old now my eyes aren't what they used to be and I could barely read that small print that was used all those years ago. If you ever get around to a second edition I would gladly pay for an extra 10 pages or so to blow up the maps and use a larger font. Second on the back cover is a reference to two "upcoming modules" Cynor:the Cursed Oasis and The Gates of Geheanna. Is there a possibility of these two being resurrected and brought back to us or are they lost forever?
Thanks for your hard work guys
There was a thread about those two that said that nothing was ever done on them.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=5799.msg (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=5799.msg)
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Yes and no, The Gates of Geheanna are supposed to have been released as Gethaena, Underearth Emer, while Cynor got lost in limboes as far as I ( we ) know.
Now while Terry was clear in the previous thread about Cynor, the link for yet an older thread is dead ( due to the passing of the old old old forums ) where the hints about Geheanna was given.
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Gethaena could do with a complete redo, given that it leaves large holes in the landscape. I doubt that a rewrite is possible, so it probably needs starting again from scratch.
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Gethaena could do with a complete redo, given that it leaves large holes in the landscape. I doubt that a rewrite is possible, so it probably needs starting again from scratch.
I do not believe this excellent book fits into Terry's vision of SW, and though I own two copies, I would purchase a rewrite (especially if done by Terry). Same with Curse of Kabis.
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Ah lots of interesting discussion.
Gethaena, Underearth Emer is in fact the same as the old announced Loremaster Module (more ore less). While I don't consider it necessarily Shadow World 'canon,' it's a fascinating book, and certainly could exist deep underground somewhere via the Ash Lairs. As far as a revision, that's unlikely. Anything happening with Kabis is even more unlikely.
Cynor never made it past an early draft, and the ms is long lost.
Iron Wind actually has had much of the book text OCR scanned, and I even poured it into an Indesign file. However many of the old layouts need to be scanned. Also, this would be more of a 'reformat' than a real 'Second Edition.' I already have so many irons in the fire with new books and revising my own SW books to do much with it more than a cleanup. I also would feel a little strange revising Pete, Olivia and Heike's work. If you all are interested in an update, please make your desires know to the powers that be and if there is enough interest, we can put it in the pipeline.
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Iron Wind actually has had much of the book text OCR scanned, and I even poured it into an Indesign file. However many of the old layouts need to be scanned. Also, this would be more of a 'reformat' than a real 'Second Edition.' I already have so many irons in the fire with new books and revising my own SW books to do much with it more than a cleanup. I also would feel a little strange revising Pete, Olivia and Heike's work. If you all are interested in an update, please make your desires know to the powers that be and if there is enough interest, we can put it in the pipeline.
A "Return to the Iron Wind" sequel would be interesting as well. I plopped Mur Fostisyr (sp) on to my world and the players had a grand old time poking about. 1st half ended with a giant battle in Denirok's fortress (one PC's patrons sought his compass). 2nd half with an assault on the Syrkakang's citadel (Jyka Brust got himself vaporized in the process).
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I think I would prefer to see Emer IV ahead of anything else.
The main think I would like to see more than anything else is maps that I can print out and write on. I like a lot of the color maps from the recent products - they're very pretty. However the backgroud are universally very dark when printed - too dark to make my own annotations and have them readable. The Bay of Izar map is especially good because of this.
I would especially like to have the continent maps from the master atlas in a format with light backgrounds. To look at on the screen, the maps from the atlas v3 are better than the v4 maps. Printed it's the other way around, but neither are good. (However, the v4 atlas has those horrible sidebars that consume massive amounts of toner.)
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I think I would prefer to see Emer IV ahead of anything else.
The main think I would like to see more than anything else is maps that I can print out and write on. I like a lot of the color maps from the recent products - they're very pretty. However the backgroud are universally very dark when printed - too dark to make my own annotations and have them readable. The Bay of Izar map is especially good because of this.
I would especially like to have the continent maps from the master atlas in a format with light backgrounds. To look at on the screen, the maps from the atlas v3 are better than the v4 maps. Printed it's the other way around, but neither are good. (However, the v4 atlas has those horrible sidebars that consume massive amounts of toner.)
re Emer IV, well considering it's in outline stage right now, it could be awhile.
However, re the maps, I can see your problem. I don't see why we can't include a screened-back grayscale map with no labels as part of the GM handouts PDF, that would be available with Emer III after the errata (previous purchasers can download the updated file free!).
Oh and as long as I have my way, you'll never see those sidebar borders again. They weren't my idea!
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Agreed whole heartedly about the maps; I am always printing them out and doing some minor alterations to them.
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May be a new product a Shadow World digital Map Pack needs to be put into the works somewhere?
MDC
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May be a new product a Shadow World digital Map Pack needs to be put into the works somewhere?
MDC
Nice idea. There were some nice maps done of other regions as well in other books; sadly those files are long gone (if they were ever digital). I wish I still had access to an 11x17 scanner.
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Maybe a print shop or a law firm might be able to give you some help. It might be also good to add this to the SW SM2 archieve project.
MDC