Topic: Maneuver during combat in SM2

[TerryTee]

I think I have some old RM books somewhere (I guess RM 2). I should dig them out to see if it makes any more sense.

I think part of the problem is that the RM rules have been adjusted for SM rather then re-written.
Another problem may be my own attitude telling me that this is a two-actions-pr-round-system, while this is probably the wrong point of view, since the two-shots-pr-round is more of an 'exception'.

But still, if I try to view this as a one-action-pr-round-system I have problems.
If I try to think in RM terms (but with the SM rules – does that make any sense?) I get:

• A magician preparing a spell (or a telepath preparing a psion) spends 90% of the time doing this and have 10% available for movement. No penalties.
• A magician casting a spell (or a telepath casting a psion) spends 75% of the time doing this and have 25% available for movement. No penalties.
• A combatant that fires a bow and then moves 50% have no penalty to any action.
• A combatant that fires a bow and then draws an arrow to fire again have no penalties.
• A combatant that draws an arrow and then fires a bow have -50 OB.
• A combatant that moves 50% and then slashes with a sword have –50 OB.

(When I say move 25% or move 50% I mean compared to what could have been performed if 100% of the time was dedicated to movement. As in my previous example a 100% move would be 50 meters, a 25% move would be 12,5 meters and so on.)


-Terry

[markc]

 No problem repeating yourself as I did not get your original question.

 OK the only two actions that I see that do not get a penalty; is firing a weapon in FP A and FP B. Or another way to look at it is if you have a weapon that can fire multiple times and is easy to use you can fire in FP A for free. After that point all actions incur a penalty as normal RM2 rules.

 Does that solve your Blue question above?
MDC

[markc]

I think I have some old RM books somewhere (I guess RM 2). I should dig them out to see if it makes any more sense.

I think part of the problem is that the RM rules have been adjusted for SM rather then re-written.
Another problem may be my own attitude telling me that this is a two-actions-pr-round-system, while this is probably the wrong point of view, since the two-shots-pr-round is more of an 'exception'.

But still, if I try to view this as a one-action-pr-round-system I have problems.
If I try to think in RM terms (but with the SM rules – does that make any sense?) I get:

• A magician preparing a spell (or a telepath preparing a psion) spends 90% of the time doing this and have 10% available for movement. No penalties.
• A magician casting a spell (or a telepath casting a psion) spends 75% of the time doing this and have 25% available for movement. No penalties.
• A combatant that fires a bow and then moves 50% have no penalty to any action.
• A combatant that fires a bow and then draws an arrow to fire again have no penalties.
• A combatant that draws an arrow and then fires a bow have -50 OB.
• A combatant that moves 50% and then slashes with a sword have –50 OB.

(When I say move 25% or move 50% I mean compared to what could have been performed if 100% of the time was dedicated to movement. As in my previous example a 100% move would be 50 meters, a 25% move would be 12,5 meters and so on.)


-Terry

 Sorry I missed this while I was typing my other answer.

1) Yes I also struggled with the seemingly 2 attacks for special firearms/energy weapons in a round. But that is what the authors decided to do to simulate the "power" of firearms/energy weapons over every other attack option. It is the only case where you get two actions per round so to speak. In fact you could think of this as a special case in which a firearm/energy weapon attack is only a 50% action.

2) I also seem to see you having problems with taking an action  and then moving, with the proceeding action not requiring a penalty. That is because the proceeding action has all the % it needs to be complete with out a penalty.
 a) Remember that firing a bow/crossbow or thrown weapon is a 50% action in SM2 and not a 75% action like in RM1/2.
 b) When they talk about two thrown weapons they talk about one thrown weapon per hand.
 c) When they talk about firing a weapon and melee it means they drop the firearm/energy weapon, IIRC.

 So yes a full attack with a bow is 50% + a full % action to draw an arrow is 50%. 50%+50%=100%
 A full attack with a ROF2 firearm in FP A is 50% and then they have 50% action remaining.
 If they take an action before firing then it will affect their OB in FP B.

MDC 

[TerryTee]

1) Yes I also struggled with the seemingly 2 attacks for special firearms/energy weapons in a round. But that is what the authors decided to do to simulate the "power" of firearms/energy weapons over every other attack option. It is the only case where you get two actions per round so to speak. In fact you could think of this as a special case in which a firearm/energy weapon attack is only a 50% action.

I’m perfectly ok with this one. Fire a weapon is a 50% action (even a single shot gun is a 50% action).
You are allowed two shots pr round (50%+50%), or one shot in FP A and some time to reload (50%+50-sih %). Or you may choose to fire only once in FA A and then have 50% left to do something else (like move half the distance you would be able to if you have 100% action available).

2) I also seem to see you having problems with taking an action  and then moving, with the proceeding action not requiring a penalty. That is because the proceeding action has all the % it needs to be complete with out a penalty.

That’s almost one of my problems;) My problem here is the inconsistency between
Attack + Move
and
Move + Attack
Fireing a gun is a 50% action, not matter if you fire it in FP A or FP B. But the rules treat it differently since
Attack + Move
incurs no penalty, while
Move + Attack
does give a -50 OB Penalty even if the Attack and the Move actions above are identical.

a) Remember that firing a bow/crossbow or thrown weapon is a 50% action in SM2 and not a 75% action like in RM1/2.
 b) When they talk about two thrown weapons they talk about one thrown weapon per hand.

I’m ok with these.

c) When they talk about firing a weapon and melee it means they drop the firearm/energy weapon, IIRC.

Attack FP A + Melee
gives a penalty to the Melee attack no matter if it is an armed or unarmed attack, or if you can shoot with one hand and then melee with the other. In fact, if you need to drop the gun and grab a melee weapon then additional penalties are applied on top of the -50.

So yes a full attack with a bow is 50% + a full % action to draw an arrow is 50%. 50%+50%=100%

Yes, it makes sense with
Fire the bow + Draw and ready a new arrow = 100% and no penalty
but if case the bowman is ‘out of sync’ and are a bit behind so that he fires in B then he’ll get:
Draw and ready a new arrow + Fire the bow = 100% action with -50 OB.
The best he can do is waste some time in order to get in sync with the mechanics so that he’ll start fireing in A instead of B.

-Terry

[markc]

Bow question:
 It says that thrown or missile weapons can fire in FP A or FP B. So you would only get a penalty if you move.
  I need to check on the Draw Arrow and Fire for -50 when I get back to my books.
  Only firearms and energy weapons can fire in both FP A and FP B. Missile and thrown weapons can fire in only one of the PF's, the firer gets to pick which FP to fire in.

Attack + Move and Move + Attack, Firearms or Energy weapons
 Why would your move be penalized by firing first? If you fire a weapon and then move, all you have to worry about is your movement. You are not trying to attempt a skill you are just moving from position A to position B. Your attack in FP A happens before your move in the round and it is not simultaneous.  
 Move + Attack: In this case when you move, it makes it tougher to attack. You are not just looking for an opening to attack or spending all of your time attacking to strike a blow. Remember a full melee attack takes 100% activity and a full missile or firearm attack takes 50% activity, if you do anything before the attack it affects your attack. Even if a firearm or energy weapon only takes 50% action to attack because of its ease of use or to say the firearm and energy weapon attack is a special case in that if the weapon has a rate of fire of 2 then you can attack in both FP A and FP B but if you attempt an action before firing in FPB you will receive a penalty just like an other action.

MDC

[TerryTee]

I’ve had a look at the RMSS Arms Law, and the rules outlined there are close to identical to SM2. No help there with any more interpretations, explanations or examples.

I think I’ve made a few realizations though:

1)
You are allowed to trade Time of Penalties for some actions (this is what you described before Markc, and as I said I agree). The point is that you may not do this for all actions.

• A Melee attack is actually a 100% action, but may reduce id down to as much as a 50% by taking a -50 OB Penalty.
• Firing a gun is a 50% action, and you may only reduce it in certain situations, and then only down to about 30% (changing weapons from left to right and then melee is an example).

2)
As you describe in your previous post Markc, penalties are applied to actions taken after Movement. In a way it makes sense, and I suppose this is the logic in the RM/SM rules.
I see the logic, but I don’t like it. I’ll explain why:
I don’t like a round to be an artificial time bubble with a start, a set series of sequences and an end. I’m fine with the Phases and what can be done when, but not that the end of a round is the end of actions and then you have to start over. Example:

Assumption: The character in question is able to run 50m if he spends 100% of the round running.
So, looking at two rounds where the the character is going to shoot an automatic pistol 2 times and run 50 meters. A natural option might be (depending on the situation) to:

• Shoot  once, run 50 m and then shoot again.  From a rules perspective this will be
• Shoot in FP A round 1, Move 50%=25 meter round 1, Move 50%=25m round 2, Shoot in FP B round 2 with -50.
• Due to the rules giving penalties to actions after movement he is better off with:
• Shoot once, run 25 m, stop, shoot again and then run another 25m. Rules wise this becomes
• Shoot in FP A round 1, Move 50%=25 meter round 1,, Shoot in FP A round 2, Move 50%=25m round 2.
  

So the very thing the rules are meant to simulate (it’s a bad thing to shoot after movement) is contradicted by the very rules.
Again I realize the rules where probably not build to looking across rounds, but I’d like to have a logic that works for more than 10 seconds at a time.
 
-Terry

[markc]

 Yes IMO the system is based in 10s chunks and has some limitations built into it.


 I know that there is a system out there that just takes actions forward but I do not remember the exact name and my search-fu has failed me. I think the name is CHEETS or CEATS. But I could not find the sit when I did a search.


MDC

[TerryTee]

Did you find any info on drawing and fireing a bow?
I'm still struggling a little with get drawing weapons and arrows in combat, and what penalties it gives.

-Terry

[markc]

  I got out my old AL&CL #1100 2nd edition Sept 1989 [Noted because different editions of AL have had slightly different info sometimes] it goes into the new RM & SM combat rnd with many more examples than in the SM2 section. The bow ammo reload % are on page 25.
 If I was to guess , which I am I think the rules in the SM2 book are almost finalized rules for AL & CL #1100 Sept 2nd edition. And just to make things easier they ruled that all missile/thrown reloading takes a 50% action. In AL & CL they go further and provide c complete list of the action %'s.
 It could have also been an attempt to have people buy AL & CL after buying SM2, which I hope they did not do.

MDC

[TerryTee]

Thanks Markc.
My group should have the AL&CL somewhere. I'll have to track it down.

When we agree upon how we will use the round sequence in out new campaign I'll post the rules interpretations and house rules here.

-Terry

[markc]

 IMO you should track it down as the feeling I get from reading the PDF is that it is just a pre-working set of rules or a simplified working set to fit within the pages provided. During the quick glance I got when looking for the reloading rules in the RM2 AL&CL I had I was very very surprised to find the expanded combat sequence for SM in the book. It also seamed to me that they devoted many more pages to the topic than in the SM2 P Book and was clearer IMO.

 Also note my hard copy of SM2 has the same rule set as the PDF so I do not know if there is a different version of SM2 that has the updated RM2 combat system.

Good Luck, and hope it works well in your game
MDC 

 

[markc]

TerryT;
 I was just wondering if thinking about the FPA as a haste phase? Or thinking about the ability of firing a SMG or AR as a special haste type action.
 That also brings up a point that IMO I do not think that firing a SMG, AR or energy weapon can be adapted to haste. IMO they are set at a ROF and just because you have more action it does not mean that you can fire at more targets. But I do think it would have an impact on area fire or continuous fire as those are using lots of ammo generally on full auto. Also those types of weapons are designed to fire at very high rates for long periods of time and will not suffer from being used that way.

MDC

[TerryTee]

IMO you should track it down as the feeling I get from reading the PDF is that it is just a pre-working set of rules or a simplified working set to fit within the pages provided.

I've dug up the AL&CL from 1989.
It does have a little more info (like a FAQ), but all in all the text is pretty much the same as in the SM2 PB.


One of the things I'm still wondering is how drawing a weapon actually works.
I see two different ways of looking at this:
1)
Drawing a weapon is a 20% action and must be performed in maneuver phase. Since a maneuver before shooting in FP B gives a penalty then the shot in B is with –20.
2)
You may draw a weapon and shoot in the same fire phase, but the shot will be with –20.

The problem with 1) is that it should be feasible to draw and fire once in 10 sec with no penalty.
The problem with 2) is that you all of a sudden allow a 50% attack to be performed in 30%, something that is not allowed in other combinations of actions.
(One such combination could be 3 shots at 33% action each, with one gun in ach hand).

And then you throw Quick Draw into the picture… it should eliminate the –20, but does it do so for 1) or for 2), or dos it work in a different manner?

-Terry

[TerryTee]

TerryT;
 I was just wondering if thinking about the FPA as a haste phase? Or thinking about the ability of firing a SMG or AR as a special haste type action.

Haste is a problem, and so is the ROF.
I've never had much need to challenge this yet, but the way I see it (before I dig into it at least) the maximum 2 shots pr round is a Human factor, not a Weapons factor.
This is why:
If you hold an automatic pistol, or even a revolver, and you don’t care if you hit anything then you can easily empty the magazine in less then 10 seconds. Heck, a trained shooter can empty the whole magazine at a target in less time.

So I view the 5 seconds pr shot as a human limitation due to the stress of the combat situation, the need for orienting yourself and identifying possible threats and so on.
Holding two guns will not change this, so you will not be able to fire more then twice anyway.
But if you have 200% of activity available I'd say it should be possible to fire 4 times pr round, even if you only have one weapon. After all, you do everything twice as fast (spot enemies, duck, target the weapon…) and the weapon will have no problem keeping up.

I think the limit of 2 shots pr round even with haste is a game balancing mechanism more than anything else. If it is an attempt at realism then I think it is a failed attempt:(

-----------------


As long as we are talking about fully automatic hand held weapons then I'm perfectly fine with the 2 shots pr round, same as with semi automatic weapons. The semi automatic will fire 1 bullet pr fire phase while the fully automatic may fire 1 burst pr fire phase. The burst rules covers this.
The burst rules may not be very good, but they add the flavour and I use them fairly frequently.

Now if we move on to a fully automatic supported weapons, that is where I see the rules breaking. By the rules there is no difference between fiering bursts from a hand held weapon (about 10 bullets pr round) and continuous fire from a mounted weapon (about 100 bullets pr round).
So this is where I see the need for some change. Here are a few suggestions:
i)   A mounted weapon on full auto gets 2 attacks per fire phase (4 pr round)
ii)   A mounted weapon on full auto get an extra attack in the maneuver phase (3 pr round)
iii)   An extra set of burst options should be created for mounted weapons on full auto

-Terry

[markc]

Drawing Weapons:
 One thing you are mixing in your example is that firearms with a ROF of 2 perform the attack action as if they were twice as fast, ie haste 200%. They even gave them a special phase to attack in FP A, but allowed other thrown and missile weapons to attack there as well.

MDC

[TerryTee]

Drawing Weapons:
 One thing you are mixing in your example is that firearms with a ROF of 2 perform the attack action as if they were twice as fast, ie haste 200%. They even gave them a special phase to attack in FP A, but allowed other thrown and missile weapons to attack there as well.

I don’t agree on this one. If you have a thrown weapon in each hand you may throw them both, one in each phase, same as an automatic gun. That does not seem to involve 200% action.

But that’s besides the point (although I’m happy to discuss that as well  ). I’m actually confused as to how a regular draw is supposed to work.
•   Draw in A and shoot in A with -20?
•   Draw during maneuver and shoot in B with -20?
I may be slow, but te rules does not make this very clear…

-Terry

[markc]

Drawing Weapons:
Ways to draw: normal draw, quickdraw and adrenal quickdraw. [I think all of these are in SM2 as I am not at my books at the moment and this is from memory. Note also I may be confusing my own combat system with the official rules as again I do not have my books right by my side]
1) Draw Weapon: 1 full or more action [as defined by GM, example if weapon is inside pack IMO IMO it might take more then 10s to get it out]
2) Quickdraw: 20% action -Failure= regular Draw Weapon maneuver
3) Adrenal Quickdraw: 0% action  -Failure= Throw weapon

Note that drawing a weapon is an action so all actions after that would be modified by it in the round.
 Does that help.
MDC
 

[TerryTee]

Regular draw:
A regular draw is set as a 20% action (SM2 PB p54 and p55).
So drawing a gun from a regular holster at the hip at the start of the round, may the character:

• shoot in A on -20 or
• shoot in B on -20?

If a regular draw is a regular maneuver that takes 20% of the round then it should be the second option here:

• Draw in Manevuer and shoot in FP B with -20.

Quick draw:
I’d say quick draw is only used when you have a scabbard or holster, not when the gun is in your bag.
Assuming a successful skill roll, a character with Quick Draw will draw faster than a character drawing without a special skill. As far as I can see the Quick Draw character will soot in the same fire phase as the regular draw character, but without the -20.

So far so good.
However, a successful Quick Draw seems to be described as 0% action (I have this only from various forum posts, not the rules). If so then a Quick Draw character should be able to:

• Quick Draw + shoot in FP A + shoot in FP B, and no penalties are incurred.

This does not fit with my conclusion of a regular Draw where the first shot is in FP B.

-Terry

[markc]

Terry;
 Sorry for the lat response I got tied up with some other stuff this weekend. Also I did not quote the SM2 rules right as you have pointed out as well as provided page numbers. Thanks a bunch as that saves a lot of time and effort on my part.

 Here is how I would handle it.
1) Quick Draw = 0% action and you can fire in FP A and FP B without an penalty.
2) Regular Weapon Draw: takes 20% action so you cannot fire in FP A, and have 80% activity left for the round.
 2a) As firing a firearm/energy weapon at full OB is only a 50% action, you could fire after you have drawn and still have 30%   activity left over. Draw 20% + Fire 50%= 70% so you have 100%-70%= 30%.

 IMO they may have been referring to the possibility of a quick draw and a normal draw and it just got messed up in the editing.

 The Hard Way:
1a) Since a normal firearm attack is 50%by the RAW, but from RMSS: AL:F they have a table on page 11 that gives % activity for actions. A single shot attack is 30% to 60% and a double shot is a 50% to 90% action. And the rules in SMP: BL are the same as in RMSS: AL:F.
1b) I know it is a little different in SM2 but I wanted you to see the minimum % number of 30% listed. IMO this is possibly how the book may have come up with fire in FP A at -20 and fire in FP B at full OB. Or wait for some reason and fire in FP B at full OB taking a 50% action and having 30% left over as in the above example. Why do this? Well maybe they have to wait until a target gets into position or they want to wait until they get closer. Sort of like do not fire until you see the whites of there eyes moment.
1c) I do not know why they would let you do a draw action in FP A or even presented it that way except as a way to make firearms different from missile and thrown weapons. Remember by the rules you can only use firearms to attack twice in a round and cannot use thrown or missile weapon twice in a round.

MDC
 


 

[markc]

  I looked at the combat rounds in RMSS: AL 94 and SM:P and they were very close to the the structure presented in SM2 but had some other options.
1) It talks about haste and does not allow more then 2 primitive missile or 2 firearm attacks in 1 round, on page 113 AL 94
2) From SM:P and RMSS: AL:FA it provides this info that will help you IMO. a single shot is a 30% to 60% action, a double shot is a 50% to 90% action. This helps with the % problem IMO above as it provides numbers for actions for you to work with. IN the RMSS: AL combat [CBT] round sequence or the SM2 CBT sequence it uses both FP A and FP B so you can use the above % to fit with in that system.
3) In a later edition of RMSS and in SM:P they does not use the phase system but just use snap, normal and deliberate phases. Which I would just resolve actions by there %'s but you could use the SM2 CBT round sequence in each of the three phases above.
4) Also in the general section of AL 94 it just lumps together all reloads or missile weapons into a simple #. IMO I would use the option rule on pages 128-129 in place of the one size fits all number presented in the basic rules.

MDC