Topic: Maneuver during combat in SM2

[TerryTee]

Hi.
I'm after some input on the standard rules, since they are somewhat unclear.
Cutting away some of the details a combat round is:
Fire Phase A
Movement Phase
Fire Phase B
Melee Phase

If you want to shoot twice you can shoot in A and B, but this takes all of your available time, and you may not do anything else.
In section 13.2 however it says that you may move in the Movement Phase and shoot in B, but you will get a penalty to the shot: -5 OB pr 5% movement.

I read this in the following manner:
You may shoot in A with no penalty.
You may then move in the Movement Phase, up to a maximum of 50 %.
You may then shoot in B with –50 to OB (assuming 50% movement).

This seems wrong on several levels…
If you may overleap Movement Phase with Fire Phase B, why may you not do the same for Fire Phase A?
If you may both Move and Fire at the same time (in B as pr the book), why would you get a penalty to OB but not to the maneuver?

Input anyone?

-Terry

[markc]

I will take a look at it tomorrow and provide some input.
MDC

[markc]

 On page 54 of the players book it gives all of the examples and says that a combatant may not fire in Fire Phase B if they have fired in Phase A and moved. This is located in the top 2nd column on page 554 of the players guide, section 13.1. On page 55 section 13.2 they talk about the exceptions and how they interact with the round sequence.
 
 Also a note it says in Fire Phase A you only have 50% activity or 50% activity if you fire in Phase A. This is located in the text of Fire Phase A results on page 54.
 Also again on top of the second column it states you may not fire if you have done any of the following; moved and fired in phase A,  Cast/prepared a Psion, Moved more then 50% or been incapacitated and/or failed a maneuver or orientation roll. 
 
 Does that help?
MDC

[TerryTee]

Thanks for your input Markc.
I’ve been reading the rules in order to get a consistent picture of how this should work. It’s kind of scary that this is sill not clear after som many years of using the system;-)
One of the things I cant really seem to grasp is the Fire While Moving on p55 PB. It says that a combatant that has done nothing else may  combine his movement with Fire Phase B. In this way he may move 50% and fire in B at -50 OB. Comparing this with the normal Phase descriptions on p 54 I don’t quite get this.
If I read p54 correct a combatant may:

• Fire in A with no penalty and then move 50%.
• Move 50% and then fire in B with no penalty.

So what is the point with Fire While moving? Does it mean that the shot actually comes in the Movement Phase, and the advantage is that the combatant gets both some movement and a shot before the guys that shoot normally in B?

-Terry

[markc]

 No, I do not see the entry that says they can fire in Phase A and then move 50%. What I see is that they can fire with a penalty and move 50%.

Does that make sense?
MDC
 

[markc]

 The confusing part is this sentence on page 54 " In the following phases Phase A Firers have 50% of their activity left and may do the following:". Is that the problem you are having also?

MDC

[markc]

 Bummer it seems as if you jumped off while I was posting. But from what I read it seems if you fire in Phase A you are firing at the 50% activity mark and if you are firing in Phase B you are firing at the 100% activity mark.
 Does that make any sense?
MDC

[TerryTee]

This does not make quite sense either;-)

I find nothing that says if you
Fire in A then Move up to 50%
that this will give any penalty at all.

Also the fiering on the 50% and 100% mark does not quite fit. A character may

• Fire in A and then Melee with -50
• Fire in B and then Melee with no penalty

First of all if makes no sense that the first gives a penalty and the second does not. And secondly it means the shot in B does not come on the 100% mark.

-Terry

[markc]

 OK, I went back to page 53 and it seems to me to say weapons with more than 1 shot per round may fire in both rounds at full 100% OB. I was wrong with my previous interpretation of the rules.
 Does the above make sense now?
MDC

[TerryTee]

Does the above make sense now?

Which part?

In section 13.1 it seems to say that you may
Fire in A and then move 50%
or
Move 50% and then Fire in B
But in section 13.2 under "OB Penalties for Movement/Maneuver" it seems to say that you must indeed
Move 50% and then Fire in B with –50 OB

So why does
Fire in A and then move 50%
not give any penalty while
Move 50% and then Fire in B
gives a –50 OB penalty?

-Terry

[markc]

 First I would like to say that I am no expert on SM combat system and am just trying to help you out.

 Some of my notes: I am working off ICE's  PDF copies of the SM2 rules [It also says in the beginning of the Chr book that the original SM1 Tech Law and Future Law are not compatible.] 
1) page 53 of the players book; section 13.1 second column: It essentially says; Some weapons can fire more then once in a round and are provides two rolls to represent this.
 a) After some looking this is represented by the rate value on chart 1 page 65 of the Tech Book. It lists either a 1 or 2 and the type of fire the     weapon may do.
2) Section 13.0; says that this is a modified RM1 system which is a preview [my word] of the RM2 combat system. And goes on to say; Missile weapon take a 50% attack % time and not 75% as in the previous RM1 rules. 
3) In 13.2 under the heading OB Penalties for Moving/Maneuvering it states first sentence, "If you fire in Fire Phase Phase A......"

 IMO it seems to allow for two distinct attacks for weapons that have a rate of fire of 2. Each of these attacks which take only a 50% action receive  full OB, unless you have done something else in the round. If you do something else besides fire your weapon you receive a penalty to your action.

Round:
1) Psion Action
2) Psion results
3) Prion Orientation
4) Fire Phase A
5) results FP A
6) Movement
7) Fire Phase B
Results FP B
9) Melee Phase
10) Melee Results Phase
11) Final Orientation Phase

My logic:
1) If you can fire in Fire Phase A [FP A] and fire in Fire Phase B [FP B] then that equals 100% activity.
2) Any activity after FP A if it is a move or a Moving Maneuver is penalized as if a 50% action has occurred. Those actions happen in later phases.
3) Movement Phase comes before Fire Phase B, so if you move you will have penalties to firing in FP B.

Basically what I take from it is that if you fire a weapon in FP A you have 50% action remaining.

MDC

   

[TerryTee]

First I would like to say that I am no expert on SM combat system and am just trying to help you out.

And I appreciate the sparring:)

I agree with your summary, and I agree your three-step logic perhaps with a small exception on step 2.

I think may main problem is a generalization of my issue stated in reply #9:
An attack (FP A, FP B, Melee) is a 50% activity.
A ‘standard movement’ like changing weapons is also a 50% activity.
The problem then is that a player will get different modifiers depending on how he mixes these 50% ‘blocks’ of activity. I’m ok with the order of events in the round that you summarize, but I’m not ok with what I will try to summarize:

• FP A + 50% move gives no penalty
• 50% move + FP B gives a penalty of -50 OB
• FP A + FP B given no penalty
• FP A + Melee gives a Melee penalty of -50 OB
• FP B + Melee gives a Melee penalty of -50 OB
• Move 50% + Melee gives no penalty

I realize that I can create my own round sequence, but I prefer to understand the rules properly before I start adjusting them.

-Terry

[markc]

1) FP A + Move = 50% move penalty, ie you do not get a 100% move. If you try a MM you get -50 to that MM, in that 50% sequence.
2) 50% move + FP B= A penalty of -50 since you have move 50%.
3) Yes FP A + FP B= No penalty as you are just firing twice
4) FP A + Melee = -50 to melee and the fire weapon must be dropped as per rules in 13.2
5) Same as #4 above
6) Moved + Melee= I read the rules that you can attack with a min of 50% activity, so you would get a penalty to your melee action based on how much you have moved in the round. Or no penalty if you have not moved in the round.

Changing weapon hands is a -20 as per Fire and Melee in section 13.2.

 
a) To me it says that Firearms/Energy Weapon and Modern Weapons can fire twice in a round at full OB if their rate is 2. That means two 100% attacks taking 50% of the round.
b) If you take any other action in a round your OB is modified by that action. 

MDC

[TerryTee]

It's comming togeather. One question:

Where do you read the MM penalty in 1) above? That you only get 50% MM is fine since the FP A took ther other 50%, but what about the -50 MM penalty?

-Terry

[markc]

 On page 54 of the players book under the heading of Fire Phase A: The second dot says Move/Maneuver at 50% of normal.

 So is that not right? If you have only 50% of the time to take a MM you get a -50 mod instead of a 100% time for no mod. I could be wrong as I do not use the % system at all I use my own custom combat system. So I may be wrong on that point but I do not think so.

MDC

[TerryTee]

Woops, pushed the wrong button. Still writing...

[TerryTee]

My interpretation of Move 50% is that you can only move half as much, not that you get a negative modifier for the movement.
So if you can run (battle style) 50 meters in a round that you only runs, that means you may run 25 meters in a round where you only have 50% Movement available.
To me that is not a penalty, that’s just allocating 50% of available activity to movement and 50% of available activity to something else. A penalty is doing the action you want, but with a negative modifier.


I'll try to illustrate with a table (why can't I get any borders on this table?)

Action pr Phase	___	% of activities used	___	Effect and penalties
Only Move in the whole round	___	100% movement	___	Run 50 m
Fire in A and then run	___	50% for the shot and 50% movement	___	1 shot and Run 25 m
Run and then Fire in B	___	50% movement  and 50% for the shot	___	Run 25 m and shoot once at –50

Do you understand what I'm trying to say about the difference in 50% Movement and –50 to an action? If so, do you agree with my view on this?

-Terry

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you want table borders, then I suggest using the tabular tag, rather than the Table tag. --- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=77.0

[markc]

 Sorry for the wait but I wanted to look at the book before I answered.

1) If an maneuver takes 100% of the round normally but you the GM allow the PC to attempt it in a shorter time span, then the PC would get -1% per 1% less activity they spent on the task.
 a) If they take a shot in FP A then they have 50% activity left so that would be a maneuver as ruled above with a -50 or
 b) They could wait the full 100% and have the maneuver completed as a 100% action in the next round and no penalty to the roll.

 That is my logic behind the -50 MM. It is because they are attempting a 100% action that the GM has ruled can be tried in a shorter time span with a penalty.
 The above rational is from reading RM2 and RMSS round sequences and I think it applies to the SM 2 rule set.

MDC

Again sorry for the wait.

[TerryTee]

No worries about the delay I'm in no rush.

I agree with incurring a penalty when performing a 100% action in a 50% time window. That makes perfect sense.

I'll try to generalize my problem again (or what I think my problem is ):
When doing two actions that each take 50% each, why does some action combinations incur a penalty while other combinations does not?

Another example:

• Changing weapon is a 50% action (30% to sheath one and 20% a draw another).
• If the last shot in the gun is fired in FP A, and the player wants to change weapons in the maneuver phase, then it seems like there is no penalty involved.
• However, if the last shot in the gun is fired in FP B, then the weapon must be changed in the next round (naturally). In the next round the maveuver phase is used to change the weapon (50% activity) and then a shot is fired in FP B (50% activity) with a –50 OB.

Sorry, I'm repeating my self. I just don't quite that part above.

If I try to generalise the rules it seems like the only combinations of actions you may do without a Penalty, assuming you want to perform 100% actions, are:

• Fire A + Fire B
• Fire A + Move 50%
• Move 100%

-Terry