Author Topic: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)  (Read 7051 times)

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Offline SamwiseSeven

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2009, 05:01:28 PM »
Making a new edition of HARP (and calling it HARP), adding in some house rules from those that have played it and from the Guild Companion, and giving it levels of higher complexity (Basic, Intermediate, Expert, etc) as optional rules which would be highly influenced by Rolemaster I think would be the best way to do things.  No one is ever happy with a compromise, but wouldn't you want new stuff to come out for a compromise, than nothing at all because they are not focused enough on one game?

I like the idea of a base list of skills (that never increases in number), and later add specialties to those same skills with the Intermediate, and Expert rules, so you don't have skill-creep.  Just make sure the base skills are vague, so they can handle just about every situation with all kinds of specialties added in later.  Stress the playtesting aspect of the design process, and be open to change.  If we don't change we'll die.  It doesn't have to be drastic change (because not all change is good...) but I think you get what I mean.

Basic would be a small cheap rules-lite book, so people can buy into the system easily.  Think Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition cheap.  Intermediate would be another slightly bigger book by page count, with added complexity.  Expert would be a large book with tons of optional content.  Releasing the PDFs cheap would help as well to get the word out.

It might anger some people, but the name "Rolemaster" has a love/hate relationship with people.  Those that remember playing it and loving it, and those that tried playing and hated it, and would probably never try anything called Rolemaster again.  I think naming the new system Rolemaster would not help the situation.  Since HARP is newer, and has less negative baggage, I think calling it "HARP 2" or whatever would be better.  Or call it something new entirely, but then you have to work on name recognition from the get go.

I wish ICE luck.  HARP brought me back to the ICE fold, as I was a RMSS player when I was a kid.  As I age I prefer more rules lite to rules medium games, so for me these days Rolemaster just isn't for me.  So in the above suggestion, I would probably be a Basic guy, with some Intermediate rules thrown in sparingly.
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Offline SamwiseSeven

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2009, 05:20:00 PM »
To appease those that will not upgrade ever, I suggest continuing to sell the PDFs of the older versions of games, and sell the remaining stock of older books until they are gone.  Then focus on the new game with all of the effort ICE can muster.

People tell me that having options using Iphone technology is the future of RPGs, but I don't have my crystal ball to check.  Or perhaps I failed my Divination spell roll.  :)

These are all just my opinions, and like many here I'm in the over 30 crowd.  Some kid in elementary school will probably invent the next RPG-like thing that will sweep us old foeggies away like chaf before a fire.
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Offline SamwiseSeven

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2009, 05:30:32 PM »
It seems many people are jumping on to the Micro-Payments model of things, and that might be a way to go as well.  Have a yearly membership, with payments coming out automatically, and any updates or errata, as well as small extras such as the Express Additions, or HARPer's Bazaars would be sent directly to those with the Membership.

You could call the members, the Order of the Iron Crown... :)

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, and ignore all the stupid stuff.  hehe.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 05:38:04 PM by SamwiseSeven »
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2009, 06:31:26 PM »
So far all I hear are discussions of a significant down grade of an already excellent system.

Offline Mungo

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 01:37:38 AM »
So far all I hear are discussions of a significant down grade of an already excellent system.

Yes! I want new material, not new rules or a new system.

Offline Erik Sharma

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 02:25:28 AM »
Like many others have said the Editorial this month was a really interesting.
I wholeheartedly agree on the State of RM and it's also good to know that TGA is alive and kicking. Even more important when you consider the fact in State of RM with no published books for a long time (except for RMC) and we need something like TGA to keep the games alive. My introduction with ICE is through SRR (Swedish translation of "The game that shall not be named") and later on took a step over to english translation just because there was a bigger selection of modules available and you didn't have to wait for them to get translated.
Was interested in the existing RM2 edition at the time but never took the step over.
But when RMSS saw the light I jumped at it. But it didn't last long because it was competing with other games at that time, and with the sad news of the old ICE I thought all the games was dead (I know for a fact many roleplayers here in Sweden still don't know ICE is still alive) but when the news of the D&D 4th Edition of another game was announced I shelved my whole D&D collection and dusted of my RMSS-books. Not to long after RMC saw the light and I jumped at it, and so far have ordered everything that is printed to RMC (through the ICE Shop since it's basicly impossible to get otherwise in Sweden). Still waiting for the Gamemaster Screen (I know of Bruce's backlog of work so I guess it will get here eventually).
I really do like RMC and the back to basics idea!
I do feel the simplicity (especially when adding RMX into that), but after a while became so troubled with choosing between what Optional Rules to use in my game and seeing that I always kept shaping it towards the RMSR standard. The RMC/X Char Gen Guidelince was a step in the right direction with establishing what will be the norm for the ICE products. But since most of my choices took RMC closer to how it was in RMSS/FRP-line so I decided to take step back to RMSS and have recently ordered RMSS Harcover Value Pack to replace all my old SS and FRP books with loose/missing pages. More hardcover books are planned getting bought since I have found that they are really durable. I will still support the RMC line and ICE as much as possible since their games at the moment is the only games I focus on currently and probably will be returning to it. The reason is as the TGC editorial says, it's the only game that is getting some love at the time.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 02:31:01 AM by Chorpa »

Offline Emaughan

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 07:56:08 PM »
Quote
Yes! I want new material, not new rules or a new system.

I love the current systems (both RMC and RMFRP).  I believe though that ICE needs to find a way to bridge both systems, and I also believe that this can be done without completely throwing out baby and bathwater.  Just like I can use much of the material from RMFRP in my RMC campaign, a well done merger would not invalidate our current material.  "The Merger" would allow one to use the simplier approach as found in RMC (and some of the good stuff from HARP), but easily add on more complex rules as found in RMFRP.

- Make it a good base using rules from RMC and some HARP.
- Clearify to newbees how to properly use not just the rules, but also how to use a toolkit.
- Make optional rules and tables scalable and graded by complexity (i.e. color codes/borders). 
- Add on optional rules barrowing from the best of RMFRP, RM companions, and the great brain trust that is all ICE employees.

Again, this is not a "throw RM out and start over", just the opposite!  This is all about saving RM.  The key problems that newbees, and some of the former players, have had with RM is that they failed to grasp the game.  We're fans, and from reading posts on these threads, most everyone here "gets" RM.  Unfortunately we're the elite, highly intelligent, charismatic, he-man gamers.  Not everyone gets RM - I believe that RM can be upgraded to a scalable game that helps the unwashed masses babystep into full blown RM - or anything inbetween.  At the same time it can bridge the divide between RMC and RMFRP (they are not that different).

So other than slapping bumper stickers and/or picket signs calling on people to "Save Rolemaster" (forget the whales for now), ICE needs to do something to bring things together while lowering the bar to enter our elite club.  NOT dumb down the game!!!  Just provide stairsteps to bring newbees up to our elevated levels of gamer enlightenment.

Offline markc

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2009, 10:12:20 PM »
 I use a few house rules in my game but the problem I see with lots of options is how is that going to effect the PC stats section of any product? How about the monster stats and options?
 To me the above is a big problem for a game with lots of options.
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Offline Emaughan

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 02:20:36 AM »
Quote
with lots of options is how is that going to effect the PC stats section of any product? How about the monster stats and options?


Lets start with Monsters - just because its always best to start with monsters. 
- HP - I do not see how optional rules would effect that.
- OB/DB - Again, I do not see much of change in this catagory.  I suppose that a GM could add combat styles to each of their monsters, but this would really be best handled on an individual GM basis and would not need to be a part of the monster stats in a module.
- Armor Class/Type - This one may very depending on which level of options are chosen.  Right now with RMX, Combat Companion, and Arms Law, one can have 5 armor types, 10 armor types, or 20 armor types.  This may be an area that would be best to keep one standard  - like combat companion's 1-10 Armor types.  Options would be for armor by the piece rules, and not introduce whole new levels of armor types.

NPC and PCs - key to success with this is to make sure that all optional rules scale nicely from the base game.  Here is an example:
Bob the Fighter is a key NPC in a module titled, "The Curse of Bob" (ya I'm not going to be invited to write modules).  Bob's stats would be based on the core game as this is area that I do not see as needing to be moded.  It would be silly to have a core game with say 6 stats, and then upgrade to 10 different stats.  How those stats are derived, or adding the concept of potentials, these are areas that could be upscaled options, but they would have no impact on game modules.

Skills would be easy as well.  Core game has at most ~20 skill catagories, while the advanced options (going with an RMFRP flavor) would have maybe hundreds of subskills.  Bob could have his skill levels listed using the base skills - but in the description of the NPC relevant details for those GMs who use the subskills can be added as a subset.  Rarely wood an NPC need to be that "fleshed out", most could be designed with core rules only - but using higher level options would be easy to add.  Going with my idea of color coding it might look like this:
Crafting 15 ranks
      Leather Working 14
      Wood working 12
      Smithing 5

The base game teaches newbees about how to use options and to understand a toolkit approach to game design.  Thus, when they are reading a suppliment or playing a module, anything color coded blue or red means that those are more advanced rules that should be ignored if they are not using them.  Thus NPC Bob for a newbee has - Crafting 15 - but for anyone playing the option of increased skill choices, they would use the blue options.

Thus modules would normaly be written with the base rules but could easily throw in advanced rules without causing severe injury to the newbees.

Offline Emaughan

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 11:47:46 AM »
Quote
Rarely wood an NPC need to be that "fleshed out"

Ahhhh! What happened to the edit key?!  Please let the edit button come back and stay.  Thank you from all the spelling and grammar challenged.

Offline markc

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2009, 12:10:13 PM »
Emaughan;
 I am thinking about the RM2 rules that allowed you to assign your level bonuses. As this would have the biggest impact on skill numbers.
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Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
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Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline StrongInTheArm

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »
I found Profession-less HARP very interesting. Liked the idea very much and I feel it could be a nice improvement to HARP. I liked also TJones67 suggestion to improve the idea. It would be great if something similar could be developed for RM. Maybe controlling skill costs by stats and using the Lifestyle Training Packages idea to simulate professions and granting level bonuses, base list access, cheaper costs for a small bunch of skills...  ::)

The Editorial made also very good points. Specially with the state of RM. IMHO a new version of RM would be a neat idea. That new version can came in the form of a Toolkit that, eventually, can be used to almost reproduce the other RM incarnations (RM2/RMSS/RMFRP/RMC) or even HARP since it's close enough. That Toolkit must be modular with several degrees of complexity and not bound to Fantasy only but offer the possibility to run Modern or Sci-Fi settings. I feel that last ICE publications have been centered on Fantasy and forgot completely about the rest (OK, there's HARP-SF which is great, but you've got the point).
And about settings, I've the strong feeling that many people of my age got trapped in ICE because of that setting to rule them all. Since it's no longer possible to repeat, the main idea of having a really attractive setting and publishing very detailed information about it could be the way to go in order to catch the attention of both new and old customers. I know it's difficult but... well, that's just my 2 cents.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 03:01:16 PM »
Quote
Rarely wood an NPC need to be that "fleshed out"

Ahhhh! What happened to the edit key?!  Please let the edit button come back and stay.  Thank you from all the spelling and grammar challenged.

You are allowed to edit your posts for up to 15 minutes after the post is made. Now that we are on a linux/unix based server, the Quick reply and Reply areas have a button for doing a Spell Check.

Offline Emaughan

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 07:45:34 PM »
Quote
the Quick reply and Reply areas have a button for doing a Spell Check.

Good thing, but I didn't mispell "wood". ;D

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2009, 03:27:31 AM »
FYI, after some feedback an updated version of the Profession-less HARP article is now available on my homepage in PDF format (at the very botton of the RPG section). I made only slight modifications to the proposed system and did not incorporate the changes suggested by TJones67 since IMHO these would at least need some more work and ATM the system in the article is still the better choice. YMMV

Offline munchy

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2009, 08:38:39 AM »
This is more an idea for the future not so much a comment on the current issue but has the staff of the Guild Companion ever thought about publishing a Companion with all the HARP houserules or articles. There are a lot of interesting and useful ideas among them and it would be nice to see all those articles bundled with a Table of Contents for easy orientation as I start to find the "clicking myself through all the editions" rather annoying. I guess that publishing all that stuff as a pdf or even real book would not work because of copyright issues but wouldn't it be possible to have one Guild Companion special edition featuring ALL the HARP articles? Preferably as a pdf with mentioned Table of Contents.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2009, 08:42:25 AM »
I think that is a great idea, even if only in terms of setting up a ToC page on the web and includes links to the articles based upon categorization.   
HARP - House Rules - Combat....   
Or
HARP - Monsters....
etc.

While I am not a member of the TGC staff, I'd be glad to work on that as a side project (as time allows).
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2009, 08:43:59 AM »
There's a lot of useful TGC articles that would be useful compiled together - all the RM spell lists immediately comes to mind.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2009, 08:46:47 AM »
Vroom - You take RM, I'll take HARP... let's see who gets done first.  ;D
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Offline WoeRie

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Re: Guild Companion October 2009 (Issue 128)
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2009, 09:03:03 AM »
I already made a HARP compilation from 2004 until January 2008. PM me, if you want the doc (or PDF). It contains a TOC with the name of the author and the issue it appeared. Sorted by type of information... :D


EDIT: BTW. It is 208 pages long ;)