Topic: A question regarding Character Law

[dutch206]

From the back cover of Character Law Classic:

Say goodbye to level, racial, and alignment restrictions!

I beg to differ.

The Elven SD penalty means that no elf could become a monk, mentalist, seer, or lay healer. That is, in effect,  a racial restriction to character creation.  (this is just one example.)

As for "alignment", during character creation, you are asked to come up with a personality, motivation, and alignment on Page 16 of the book.  Please explain to me under what circumstances a good-aligned altruist would become a Sorceror.  (Their base lists deal with demonic possession, inflicting pain, and fatal channeling projections.)  This is an alignment restriction on profession choice, IMHO. 

If I am missing anything, please let me know.

I agree with the 'no level restrictions part', because (in theory) your character could continue to advance in level ad infinitum.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The Elven SD penalty means that no elf could become a monk, mentalist, seer, or lay healer. That is, in effect,  a racial restriction to character creation.  (this is just one example.)

No, it isn't a racial restriction. A racial restriction would be saying "Elves are not allowed to become Monks or Mentalists". Them being lousy at being such is not the same thing as a restriction. They are quite allowed. (i.e. an unpopular choice does not equal a restriction).

And there are no alignment restrictions either. Of course, certain professions do not work as well with certain alignments/mindsets, but there is nothing in the rules themselves that you have to follow xx guidelines to be yy profession. Again, while certain combinations may not easy to create, that does not mean that you are not allowed to do it.

Good Sorcerer -- the spells are not among the "Evil" lists. It is quite easy that Character A was raised by Sorcerer B and taught his craft, but wants to use his abilities to helpothers (unlike his teacher). Conflict between master and student -- good back story...

I frequently played a character of the Assassin profession - and in all ways, he was a Scout, as that was how I designed him, and how I developed his background. Same thing basically...

That line is a bit of a throwback to the original reason for the creation of Rolemaster in the first place, I guess you could say, since many bits of it were created because of restrictions found in the original D&D system (before AD&D). 

[dutch206]

gotcha.  Thanks.

[Cormac Doyle]

Also - mentalism uses PRESENCE, not Self Discipline as the base stat!

[Steve_990]

Keep in mind that evil is pretty subjective, and that a profession is more how you learn than what you are. You could do all sorts of fun stuff with this like a Warlock (RM2) being 'gifted' his darker spell lists and causing them to channel from a maligned deity through someone who is really a good person when a fight breaks out. Breaks being the operative word!

Just be creative

[black flag]

And for Sorcerer You can imagine in a non christian setting that all the demons aren't  evil...demon is just a word...in the antic world demons were good as evilas neutral....and angels are demons from the good side thus a sorcerer can work with non evil demons...

[Emaughan]

Also - mentalism uses PRESENCE, not Self Discipline as the base stat!

I agree, let the elf be a mentalist if they want.  We have an elf Mentalist in our current game.  She does fine, except for wondering off during her watch to go exploring, getting into other players rations because she ate all of hers, failing to control her temper and hide her dislike around a group of "friendly" orcs (at least they started friendely), spending money like a drunken sailor on stupid stuff, looting the body of her adopted human father right after he died... I love letting people play elves, they just don't realize what a -20 self discipline can end up doing to their character and the party (at least with me as a GM).  Also, any caster with a low SD is going to have a harder time preping a spell in combat.

[Nders]

I agree, let the elf be a mentalist if they want.  We have an elf Mentalist in our current game.  She does fine, except for wondering off during her watch to go exploring, getting into other players rations because she ate all of hers, failing to control her temper and hide her dislike around a group of "friendly" orcs (at least they started friendely), spending money like a drunken sailor on stupid stuff, looting the body of her adopted human father right after he died... I love letting people play elves, they just don't realize what a -20 self discipline can end up doing to their character and the party (at least with me as a GM).  Also, any caster with a low SD is going to have a harder time preping a spell in combat.

that is just rubbish top to bottom. You have failed entirely in understanding what the penalty on SD represents. Unless the character you describe was a child or the player slightly retarded I would penalize their experience points greatly. And as for connecting SD with preparation of spells in combat: this is utterly unsubstantiated in either the rules for RM or any manner of traditional fantasy literature.

If you want to run a hets against elves just dissallow them in your campaigns instead of making up silly rules or interpretations in order to hassle them.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Also - mentalism uses PRESENCE, not Self Discipline as the base stat!

Even if it did... How would that affect someone from becoming of a particular profession? It may be different in RMC (compared to RM2) but the prerequisite for being of a profession is based on the stat itself, not the bonus! Even the PP/lvl are based on the stat itself, not the bonus.

[Emaughan]

that is just rubbish top to bottom. You have failed entirely in understanding what the penalty on SD represents.

ROTFL

Rough day Nders?  Am glad to know that we have a goto guru on all things pertaining to SD.

Having worked with, taught, and observed many different types of people in my life - I have seen many, otherwise very intelligent people, do really foolish things.  When I was in pharmacy school I would see all the respiratory therapist having smoke breaks with their patients.  In ROTC we had a few screw ups who would do stupid things like try and slack off on their watch, fail to load their ruck with the required equipment, and slack on their assigned tasks - they were never squared away.  As a teacher I saw over and over other teachers acting less mature than their students and even throwing fits in class.  I have a few morbidly obese patients, good people, and one of them a very intelligent man who ran a biotech company before he retired; unfortunately he can't control his eating which is killing him. I've had students who were very smart and charismactic, crap away all their potential because they were too lazy, or got involved with the wrong crowd.

The point.  You do not have to be "retarded" to do very foolish things.  Intelligence and ones self control are NOT conected in any way.  Not sure what you use to reflect a characters: "will,
alignment, faith, mental strength or
power, concentration, self-control,
determination, zeal, etc."

but I use self dicipline.  If you want to use agility, quickness, empathy or whatever to reflect such things in your game, that's terrific.  I would recommend though that you use a bit of self discipline in toning down your replies to other people's post... even if they are "just rubbish top to bottom".

[kevinmccollum]

She does fine, except for wondering off during her watch to go exploring, getting into other players rations because she ate all of hers, failing to control her temper and hide her dislike around a group of "friendly" orcs (at least they started friendely), spending money like a drunken sailor on stupid stuff, looting the body of her adopted human father right after he died... I love letting people play elves, they just don't realize what a -20 self discipline can end up doing to their character and the party (at least with me as a GM).  Also, any caster with a low SD is going to have a harder time preping a spell in combat

Is this something the player chooses to do? to act in that way? or is it something the GM forces on her?

[Emaughan]

Is this something the player chooses to do? to act in that way? or is it something the GM forces on her?

Both - seeing how the character plays and the character personality leads to moments where the GM (I) will force her to role against her self discipline.  Looting her adoptive father's dead body (this happened at the very beginning of the campaign) that was all her.  Wandering off during her watch because it is boring, or falling asleep (elves do sleep in my world) that was me making her role an SD check and she often will fail.  All PCs have to role SD checks when they take watch (this comes from my personal experience in ROTC knowing how tough it can be to overcome ones fatigue inspite of the fact that staying awake is the right thing to do).  She just doesn't seem to do well at protecting the party at night.  Since her "real" family was killed by orcs in her background story - she has to role SD checks whenever dealing with Orcs.  There are many cases where PCs would like their character to do the "wise" thing, but their PC's lazy, greedy, selfish natures might work against them.  The elf has - by choice - been running a rather self centered, me first, type character.  These means that when the elf wants to do something that seems to go against her nature, like boldly help defend the party in fight or not take that shiny bauble from another character, I will make her role an SD check.

[Nders]

You reffer to what self discipline is in real life and your examples are valid. However you seem to completely ignore that many of the problems you associate with a lack of self discipline are really a mix of low self esteem and lack of self assurance.

looting someone who has cared for you the minute they drop in not a matter of SD but rather a matter of greed and a lack of emotional capability.

I agree that my post may have been a tad in the rough but your thoughts on SD and elves basically offended me.

Concerning the use of retarded: I was referring to the player being retarded and this unable to roleplay propper not the character or that there was any connection between SD and retardedness. I have a slightly retarded player in my group which is way I brought up that very example of a situation where I would not penalise XP.

I suggest that you read section 4.22 of the resent Rolemaster companion I for further inspiration on how the rationale of elves and SD.

[Steve_990]

I always interpreted the negative in Elven SD to represent the fact that they are an emotional people. When an elf is angry - they are VERY angry, when sad, extremely sad etc... more on the extremes.

So when an emotional context occurs they are more likely to be extreme - hense a SD modifier.

I've never been a fan of forcing people to play how I think they should play. I simply encourage it with XP. If you play your elf as an impulsive being - bonus SP for you. If you want to play a cool controlled elf... maybe you won't get the bonus... unless it fits with what you are doing.

I always found the make a stat roll to enforce actions to be more like childish roleplaying as you are taking away from the player's expression. This is all IMO of course, so please don't take offense if you force stat checks for character actions.

[Emaughan]

I always interpreted the negative in Elven SD to represent the fact that they are an emotional people. When an elf is angry - they are VERY angry, when sad, extremely sad etc... more on the extremes.

So when an emotional context occurs they are more likely to be extreme - hense a SD modifier.

I agree that is definitely an aspect of having a low SD.  Self disipline has many sides to it.  The ability to study for a final when you really want to go play.  Saying no to that jelly doughnut when you know that you are starting to gain too much weight.  Keeping your cool when someone is yelling at you for not filling their Vicodin early - before it should be filled (ya, personal experience here).  Staying awake on guard duty when you have a spent day, and most of the night, on a forced march with a full ruck.  Fighting back temptation when you know that something is wrong, but would be so wickedly fun to do. 

Let characters play how they may, but there are times that the stats of their PC can greatly influence play.  I've been in many games where the physical stats predominate, but the mental stats languish on the wayside.  Like a character who wants to bend the bars of his cell to escape - but has -10 strengh mod - no GM that I know would say, "well that's the way they want to roleplay their character so I'll let it happen".  No, the GM says, "make a role and hope that the gods of luck are with you on this one".  With mental stats, I'll do the same.  For example, a smart player with a dumb PC does not get to come up with a brillant idea to swindle the nomadic traders while framing a rival group - no, he has to make role against his reasoning.  A PC (with low self discipline) who loves to loot suddenly gets practical and decides to first secure the area... nawww, first make an SD role.  Too often GMs let smart players roleplay dumb characters smartly (did that make sense?), or in this case, low SD characters wisely.

This has worked very well in our game and lead to many troublesome, but humorous moments.  Since this is the first time the party has played RM (all are former DnDers except my daughter) it has been a good learning experience.  They know I am a slightly evil GM who will exploit weakness' in their PCs at some of the worst possible times.

Nders - I guess we just disagree.  I play elves (or anyone with low SD) as one who may have many talents (smart, charming, athletic) but they are also very foolish.  Low SD can have a real downside - just as any of the other stats.  SD is not just there to add a few extra development points.  Non of the stats should be used only as a percentage increase/decrease to a role.  I believe it much more enjoyable if the stats also help shape the PC.  To see how stats can effect the roleplaying of a character it is good to understand the extremes of each stat 01-10 vs 90-100 - from low end to high.  Here some examples:
Ag: clumsy, awkward, bull in a china shop -- gracefull, kinestically poetic
Con: Febile, sickly -- vital, tough
SD: Foolish, impulsive -- iron will, focused
Re: Dense, block headed -- clever, very bright

Now if you want elves to be more Tolkenish and the wise elder race of the world - that's fine, I don't.  Every world is different.


 

[Nders]

Agree to disagree

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I play elves (or anyone with low SD) as one who may have many talents (smart, charming, athletic) but they are also very foolish.  Low SD can have a real downside - just as any of the other stats.

But elves don't have a low SD; they have a SD penalty, which isn't the same at all. An elf with a SD stat of 100, would still have a stat of 100, 3 PP/lvl, and a bonus of +5, which would still make him better than the average human being.

As such, I don't personally agree with associating a stat bonus modifier and a low stat/bonus.

[Nders]

I find myself agreeing entirely with Olf.

[Steve_990]

If there is one thing that can ruin an experience for a player is having the GM tell him what his character is doing. That in essence is what SD checks overriding actions do.

Unlike a skill check where you are trying to do something active, a stat check is usually there to ensure that you are strong enough to lift that crate, are healthy enough to resist that cold, are smart enough to figure out a puzzle (without a dedicated skill)

SD checks as used to see if you stay awake during guard duty, or to resist a drug habbit make sense. SD checks to enforce what the GM feels YOUR character would do is IMO wrong.

I like players that actually roleplay... if they are doing things that are not in the spirit of their character I will try to talk them out of it. If it's blatantly out of character, they will sacrifice a vast amount of the session's xp.