Topic: "core rules" Item properties question

[dutch206]

After reading the RMC rules on Item properties and prices, I have to ask a question of the 'brain trust' here on the boards.

For this example, I will be referring to a masterwork two-handed sword made out of black alloy.

On page 150 of Creatures and Treasures, it says a Masterwork item adds a +25 quality bonus to the item in question.  (adds cost times 10,000 to price and multiplies manufacture time by 32)

In Chapter Eight of Character Law, Black Alloy is listed as adding a +20 material bonus to the item in question.  (adds cost times 500 to price)  This chapter also says that a normal two-handed sword costs 2 gp and has a manufacturing time of 5 days.

Now, if I read the rules correctly, the following statements should be true:

*The two-handed sword would have a total bonus of +45 and be non-magical.
*The sword would take 160 days to manufacture.
*The final cost would be (2 gp times 10,500=) 21,000 gp.
*One angry Sorceror with an Unmetal spell could rain on my parade.

Now for the questions:

1)  Did I get that all correct?
2)  Is it really worth it to spend that much gold on a non-magical item which can just be disintegrated?
3)  How rare should master craftsmen be?  (Using the "City Generator" in RoCo I, I am guessing that they are just about as rare as Archmages.)

[yammahoper]

The lesson here is don't fight sorcerers.

[dutch206]

The lesson here is don't fight sorcerers.

 ROFLMAO

[thrud]

I have totally missed out on this chapter before. 
Are you actually saying that this bonus applies to OB?
In that case you just rocked my world...
- Masterwork +25
- EOG +30
- Enchantment +5
- Total +60 
You can actually make a +60 Magic Weapon, holy effin christ...

My PC knows the "Warrior Blade" spellist, I say it's time to go looting some tombs. Me will need a lot of cash to spring for the new sword...

[dutch206]

I have totally missed out on this chapter before. 
Are you actually saying that this bonus applies to OB?
In that case you just rocked my world...
- Masterwork +25
- EOG +30
- Enchantment +5
- Total +60 
You can actually make a +60 Magic Weapon, holy effin christ...

My PC knows the "Warrior Blade" spellist, I say it's time to go looting some tombs. Me will need a lot of cash to spring for the new sword...

So sorry to rock your world a second time, Thrud.  If I remember correctly, you can use a weapon for its material bonuses, or its magical bonuses, but not both.  For example, If you have a high steel sword (+10 material) with a +5 enchantment on it, you can use it as +10 sword or a +5 magic sword, but not as a +15 sword.  The only reason to do something like this would be so that you can hit creatures who are only hit by magical weapons.

The "Magic Materials" listing (Mithril, Eog, etc....) is so GM's can describe a magic item in more detail than just saying "You found a +20 magic sword".  Now, the GM can say "You found a Mithril Alloy sword.  It looks like it's made of solid silver and shines in the light."

That's why in the example I posted originally, I was careful to choose all non-magical bonuses.

[thrud]

P.75 RMFRP Treasure Companion, Weapon Enchantments spell list states that you can make a +10 Magical enchantment but only if you have +5 material composition. Higher level spells give +15, +20, +25 enchantments but they all require a material bonus of 5 less then the enchantment.
Hence I named it +5 for magic...

[pastaav]

1)  Did I get that all correct?

Don't know really, depends on the setting. The question is basically if crafts bonus and material bonus should stack. As far as I know that is not really specified but left to the GM to decide.

In my game I would say that these bonuses does not stack, a material like Eog is hard to process and if the smith is up to task he get +20 at least. The point with Eog in my game is basically that there are more smiths who can create the item so that the price lessens.

2)  Is it really worth it to spend that much gold on a non-magical item which can just be disintegrated?

Probably not, but that applies to all magic items. There is no proper rationale behind any of the magic item prices.

3)  How rare should master craftsmen be?  (Using the "City Generator" in RoCo I, I am guessing that they are just about as rare as Archmages.)

Probably...on the other hand RM builds on the idea of open ended rolls so the idea to require a master craftsman for master craftsman creation is a bit unlike RM.

[thrud]

The only way to explain the high bonus items found in creature & treasures is stacking crafts and material bonus.

[Fornitus]

 I always asumed the high powered items in C+T were created by mass Ritual insted of the slow method of a single caster doing it all over the course of a couple years or something.
 
 With Ritual magic, a +50 item wont take years of casting every day to complete. It will require a LOT of devoted casters swithcing out to keep the Ritual running.

 I also require the "material" ability to be within at least one level of the final "magical" bonus. i.e. to craft a +20 magical blade, one of the needed components is +15 metal. (High steel? books not handy)
 
 I DO include this as part of the standard process in some fashion, wheather the caster buys the aloy or has to create it adjusts the required time.
 
 If craftmenship is the issue, I also rule that creating the "Alloy" is part of that "craftmenship" the smith has. So still only the higher bonus is used.

[Emaughan]

I allow for stacking - but limited.  For a non magic item, if a smith succeeds on a his static action roll, he can give an item up to a +15 bonus above the material bonus.  To make the static action role, the forger must have 4 skill ranks for each +1 bonus desired.  Thus a +10 construction bonus would require a minimum of 40 skill picks in smithing.  So a smith with 40 skill picks in smithing (at least 19th level character) could take some eog and craft a +40 sword (+30 for Eog and +10 crafting).  Now if this character was also a skilled alchemist (and you have rules for casting known spells above PC level), they could make a +45 magic Eog sword (+30 Eog, +10 crafting, and an extra +5 magic).  This way crafting does make a difference.  It makes no sense that the alchemist who did little to develope smithing skills, would easily produce the same bonus in weapon as the one who was very diligent in developing those same skills.  Power creep is controled and it takes a lot of skill to achieve even modest bonuses - but it is available for those that spend picks on their crafting skills.  To get that +50 Eog sword would require an alchemist with 60 skill picks in smithing - at least a 29th level character (does anyone ever make to level 29?).

Also, once magic is infussed in the item, the full bonus is applied to OHMs (Only Hurt with Magic) and none OHM creatures alike.  It is simpler to keep track of and it makes sense that high quality - well balanced - magic weapon will have a better chance of hitting that ghost than an ACME - made in China - magic weapon. 

[dutch206]

Please see Rasyr's official ruling on this subject here .

[Temujin]

P.75 RMFRP Treasure Companion, Weapon Enchantments spell list states that you can make a +10 Magical enchantment but only if you have +5 material composition. Higher level spells give +15, +20, +25 enchantments but they all require a material bonus of 5 less then the enchantment.
Hence I named it +5 for magic...

The original poster was quoting RMC rules.  I would highly suggest keeping RMFRP rules found in Treasure Companion if you're playing RMFRP.  Also, yes(in RMFRP), you can make a +60 sword of Eog, if you know a level 180 alchemist with (or are buddy buddy with a smithing deity).  Otherwise, no.  In RMC, I dunno.

[thrud]

I assumed it was the same i RMC and I later learned it was not. My bad...