Topic: What's with the Halfling's Stats...

[Uriel]

First off, I don't use them.
One HARP Campaign (That I am running) has 12 PC races, but no Halflings, and the other (Still converting a lot of info from it's 3.5 Version, including the 30 PC races...) also has no Halflings, but...

In the interest of curiosity, why does every other race have a total of 11 net Attribute points, and the Halfling has 9? Sure, they have a neg STR, but you could have easily just put those 2 points in Agi,Quk or a mental stat.
What gives?

-Uriel

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It was just the way it worked out.....

(Note: personally, I prefer the shorter races...)

[choc]

humans have 8 pts ...

besides, halflings have less armor (no shoes! shoeless gods of war!) but armor will be cheaper (less material cuz they are short). short races have other advantages and halflings are as fast as other huger races.

and did you ever choose a race cuz their stats?

[Uriel]

My point is as a GM/Designer, not as a Power Gamer.



I am looking at it in regards to every other race seeming to be (More or less) on even footing, as far as stats go. I am a huge Balance advocate...
Yes, humans have 8 points, but they also have the choice of putting them just where they want, which I think is a nice mechanic (To Tim).

I, also, like small races (I am a Gnom-o-holic), but I just think that there could have been something to offset the -2 Str.

If evening out the stats for everybody was not supposed to be a Cardinal Rule, that is fine as well. It opens up some more options for both of my settings, since I am not sure about converting several races that (In 3.5 D&D ) had been +ECL races, I can use other negatives to offset high stats in Str, Con etc for them.



(This is in ref to D&D3.5, since my time as a HARP player is very limited)

An aside to choc: In the rare cases where I get to play, as opposed to being the GM, I don't pick races, or class, based on abilities, or stats. I choose based on aesthetics and flavor-text, I am actually the guy who played Gnome Bards in 3.5, with the attendant ridicule by my fellow players (Good natured). Why? I tell jokes, make up impromptu limericks and the idea of a 3 foot tall violin toting Gnome just appeals to my own sense of (In game) self. Yes, I have played elf archers, dwarf great sword swinging fighters and the occasional Warmage, but I am more drawn to Bards, Druids (Without maximized Animal Companions, since a marmoset is more interesting than a Wolf any day...), etc...

[Cloven-Fruit-Games]

Did you note the race talents?
Often they blance out anything missing from stats.

[Ecthelion]

IMHO the Halfling's stats are just fine. It's not the sum of the bonuses that makes good racial stats. And, as mentioned before, even if the stats were not that good, Talents might even out below average stats. From my personal POV the Halfling's stats are quite good and I don't like the Talents that much. But that's just my personal opinion.

[Mormegil]

and did you ever choose a race cuz their stats?

I was unaware that there was another method available.

I'm still confused by the lack of half ogre spiked chain fighters in HARP.

[Right Wing Wacko]

All things considered, I too think the Halfling is fine as is.

[Uriel]

Thanks for all of the replies and opinions, first off.

Yes, I have noticed the Talents, and sometimes they even out what would be lackluster stats, I suppose. Sometimes they are downright too powerful (Look at the Aesyr...Great Stature...why would you ever play any fighter without 'Aesyr Blood' for 1 DP, I don't know. At least it gives me a chance to use my Confrontation Kelt Giant figures in an RPG...).
Anyways, as I mentioned initially, I was just curious as to why one race (Humans, with their attendant move-numbers-around ability aside...) didn't follow the same formula.

-Uriel

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well, why don't we take a look at the Aesyr now!
Who uses them, who don't, and why?
Do you find them definitely over-powered?

[Pat]

IMHO Halfings are reasonably balanced and here's my reasoning.

Strength has 3 main uses:
1) Combat (not including Monk combat)
2) Armour
3) Weight a character can carry

Yes a Halfling is hurt in the amount of equipment he can carry but it does make sense since he's small and slight of build.

Both Armour and Weapon skills however, are based on Str/Ag and with a -2 Str +4 Ag he gets a racial of bonus of +2. This works out the same as a Dwarf and Gnome and better than an Elf.

He has a +4 to Ag and Qu which is very useful and gets the 3rd best endurance bonus (based on HARP core) and +3 to Con.

All up he could be a very useful fighter, not as a powerhouse like the Gryx but as a skirmisher. Or, with racial bonuses such as these, he'd be a perfect assassin.

Lastly, the Halfling doesn't have any "wasted stats". His bonuses are all necessary to character survivability unlike Elves or Gnomes with Re, In or Pr bonuses which have limited appeal to non-magic using characters.

[Uriel]

Regarding the Aesyr,I don't think the race is unbalanced, but the ability to switch out a Trait for 1 DP (Without proper GM guidance, or at least the semblance of a little realism ) if ripe for abuse. Really, though, how can a human fighter compete with an extra +5 to STR, and using 2 handed weapons in one hand? Switch out Great Heft for a Gnome's Camo, and you now have a dual greatsword wielding Sneaky guy with a huge melee ability... Again, I am not really a  HARP Player, as I am running the campaign, and there are neither Aesyr nor Gnomes in this particular setting,but I was merely giving an example.

Playing a Human Fighter? Drop one of the less useful Traits for Great Stature...for 1 DP. Professional Adaptability? While nice, and an obvious 'familiarity ease' for refugees from that 'other game', I don't really feel that HARP needs a lot of switching around of Profs, and none of my 5 players have mentioned it, with the exception of one guy playing a Beastmaster(If only to get the Quick/Rapid Reload spell for his crossbow. He realized that it was silly, and is now just happily playing the BM).There are quite a lot of power choices (Ditch the Elf's Stalk bonus fr some Gnome Blood for 1 DP...now it is Stalk and Hide.

Anyways, this is a positive testament to HARP's versatility, as the players are all 3.5ers (And we still play Pathfinder, but they are all quickly finding this to be their new favorite game, and 2 of them work at the LGS, with another working at the comic shop on the same block, so we will be converting the masses soon enough...), but are finding the fluid nature of the skill options for the various classes a refreshing choice.

I actually think that the Blood Traits are great, but I monitor them, and am coming up with some specific combos , based on the different races and their juxtaposition to the others in the campaign (Which is set upon floating Skylands, where the World has been divided into 4 quadrants until about 20 years ago). Thus, Elves from Aelvanar in the West evolved differently than those in Saphen-Bren to the North, and have different racial traits, as well as proclivities to mix with other races, if at all.

As far as STR vs. other more 'useful' stats, I find them all used pretty well, other than just for skill checks. We came up with a cool system for arm wrestling, with both PCs rolling opposed checks on the MM table, and the difference being a percentage of the way towards winning. It gave a very realistic see-saw, like I have seen (And participated in) in the RW.

Itzak has a STR of + 16, Raheni has a STR of +15 (They are both Big melee tanks, though one is a Warrior Mage, and the other an Adventurer).
I first had them make an Intimidate PRE roll, Raheni won, and she got a +10 to the first roll, as Itzak was a little taken aback by her confidence.
Itzak rolled a 67+his 16=83, for a result of 80, Raheni rolled a 48+10+ her 15, for a 73, or a result of 70. Itzak won 10 of the 100 needed to win. It went back and forth, and they both laughed quite a lot, and it showed them how something as simple as the MM table can be used for a lot of cool things (D&D refugees, remember...). They did this in the background, while 2 other PCs were gathering Info from a card sharp, and it kept them from getting bored due to not being involved directly.
I also use In,Pr and Rsn in quite a lot of situations, to give hints, let someone know that they might be better served with a different approach to a situation and to just plain point them in the right direction here and there (All very subtle, as I am letting them tell their own story, in their own direction in the game for now).
I love Lores and other skills that utilize the mental stats, so i don't find any of them less useful.
That being said, my game has a lot of combat, though folks are learning that they had better be careful, and Parry is quickly becoming their favorite word.
Tonight's game featured navigating their way through a section of sewer underneath a smuggler's lair. Thurgrimm (Dwarf Beastmaster) slipped, and fell into the nasty stuff. laughs aside, before he could climb out, he was attacked by a Ghoul that was one of a pack that the smuggler's traded corpses for guard duty with.
I grappled him and a high crit dragged him under. The Player smiled and didn't seem concerned at first 'I can hold my breath for a good long time, I have a high Con'. I laughed at his audacity (He is a pretty funny guy), as someone else pointed out 'Yeah, but Ghouls don't have to breathe...' He survived, but another player had to fish him out and help him slay the Ghoul.

This is pretty side-tracked from the Halfling question, sorry.
Again, I have my answer, I suppose. Stats do not exist in a vacuum, and were/may have been balanced with the other traits that make up a race's package, which is perfectly fine with me.

-Uriel

[Ecthelion]

Regarding the Aesyr,I don't think the race is unbalanced, but the ability to switch out a Trait for 1 DP (Without proper GM guidance, or at least the semblance of a little realism ) if ripe for abuse. Really, though, how can a human fighter compete with an extra +5 to STR, and using 2 handed weapons in one hand? Switch out Great Heft for a Gnome's Camo, and you now have a dual greatsword wielding Sneaky guy with a huge melee ability... Again, I am not really a  HARP Player, as I am running the campaign, and there are neither Aesyr nor Gnomes in this particular setting,but I was merely giving an example.

I fully agree that the Blood Talents offer room for abuse. Perhaps the costs for exchanging a Racial Talent should be 1 DP + the difference in DPs for the two switched Racial Talents (with a minimum of 0), so that if e.g. a player wants to play a Human with the Elf's Nightvision ability the cost would be 1 + (20 - 10) = 11 DPs instead of 1 DP. With the current rules a player who tends to power-gaming is inclined to exchange less useful and cheap Racial Talents of one race with more useful and expensive Racial Talents of another race with a cost of only one or two DPs.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well, most often my players don't powergame, but sometimes a little of it shows in some choices they make.
As far as making characters, they usually play what they want without power-gaming race/profession/talent combinations to death.

Actually, sometimes they pass up obviously better racial choices just because they don't like the way that race looks, its culture, etc.

Sometimes I can't help but be proud of them!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Something to keep in mind....

Regardless of the original intention of the design, 3.x removed power from the GM. Too many folks follow the "but its says I can do this in the rules". It didn't allow for various styles or settings or whatever.

With HARP, it is up to the GM to provide breaks and controls. Not everything should be allowed.

For example, in the Cyradon setting, Gryx cannot mate with Humans, elves or dwarves. Gryphons cannot either. This is a setting choice, made by the history and ancestry of the Gryx (i.e. they are descendants of the Saena, just as the other races are descendants of the Mithrans (with the Humans being descended from Mithrans through the Cyrads -- which is why only the Humans can normally have Cyrad blood).

Plus, it is also expected that there will be roleplaying ramifications to being partly of another race (again, dependant upon the setting -- i.e. Half-Elf/Half-Dwarf == Abomination to all other elves and dwarves!). 

[Right Wing Wacko]

Plus, it is also expected that there will be roleplaying ramifications to being partly of another race (again, dependant upon the setting -- i.e. Half-Elf/Half-Dwarf == Abomination to all other elves and dwarves!). 

Yeah, my players keep things like that in mind when making choices...but sometimes they go against the grain... just to put thier characters in interesting circumstances/situations.

[Ecthelion]

With HARP, it is up to the GM to provide breaks and controls. Not everything should be allowed.

Of course the GM can and should provide breaks and controls. OTOH personally I prefer the rules to provide these. It simply makes the life easier for the GM in case he has players that tend to abuse what the system allows for.

Plus, it is also expected that there will be roleplaying ramifications to being partly of another race (again, dependant upon the setting -- i.e. Half-Elf/Half-Dwarf == Abomination to all other elves and dwarves!). 

Right, but e.g. Half-Elves are quite common in many settings - and at the same time offer some room for abuse.

[Hawkwind]

Plus, it is also expected that there will be roleplaying ramifications to being partly of another race (again, dependant upon the setting -- i.e. Half-Elf/Half-Dwarf == Abomination to all other elves and dwarves!). 

I had a player in a D&D campaign who choose to run a dwarf who shaved its beard and worshipped and elven god and went around trying to convert other dwarves. Which was fine, and I was happy with the roleplaying possibilities. But she the used to get regularly upset (as herself, not the player) when other dwarves shunned and ran off her character <sigh>

Hawk

[Karizma]

As a GM, I do want to consider making the DP cost for blood talents SLIGHTLY more expensive, but other than that, I think Blood Talents is one of the most fantastic ideas of HARP.

Of course I would never allow a Gryx/Halfling... *shudder*

[munchy]

I wouldn't say that Halflings got the short end of boni and talents as the get a very nice +8 to their DB, +16 if they take the swashbuckling talent, and that's just their racial bonus. This makes them ideal rogues and thieves I would say. Their boni on resistance stamina and will are also pretty neat if you make him good at those skills to resist stuns should he ever get into a fight, which he obviously shouldn't with a weak strength bonus like that, which on the other hand is partially offset by his agility bonus.
All in all, I don't think Halflings are that disadvantages, comparing them to their Rolemaster equivalents (at least RM2 which is the version I remember) they are way better off in HARP.

Hm, Halflings are hard to hit in combat, ey .... the GM starts thinking ...

As for the "has anyone ever played"-bit, I have to admit that I have only seen halflings as NPCs but can imagine seeing or even playing one having been looking at their stats in HARP more closely now.