Topic: Found magic item, now how to sell it?

[Ecthelion]

Hi,

during our last session my players for the first time looted a magic item. According to the HARP core book this Amulet of Tongues is worth 1500 gp. Up to now my players do not even know the powers of the item, but I allowed an appraisal roll, so that they know it should be worth several hundred gold pieces.

1. Was it correct to allow appraisal on the item to determine the high value, or would it have been required to know that the item is magical beforehand?
2. The PCs only have Attunement in the range of 25-40 bonus, so that it is quite likely that the don't find our the powers of the item. Is it necessary for selling it? How do you handle finding out the powers of an item though paid services from a third person?
3. How can they actually sell the item? The Trading skill says that the skill roll determines the discount the characters get. But how to find a potential buyer in the first place? I mean they won't be able to go to the next inn, trade with the innkeeper and get 1500 gp from the poor fellow who never owned that much money. Are there official rules for this? If not, how do you handle this?

Thanks in advance

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

They don't know the powers -- do they know it is magical?

1) Appraisal would determine the value of the base item. Being an amulet, that means that they learned the value of the amulet as a piece of jewelry, not as a magical item. If they know it is magical, but not what it does, then that would be the same as not know it is magical at all.

2) if they don't know the items powers, then how can they sell it as anything other than a normal amulet? If they try to scam the buyers, then they could have the law after them for fraud. They can always try to find somebody (at a shop that sells magic items) who would identify it for them (usually at a high cost)

3) First off, they are never going to get 1500 gp for the amulet. That is the price they would pay to purchase it from a store. The most that they might get normally is 750 gp.

You also might want to look at the Commerce and Trading Guide which can be found here --> http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm

[Arioch]

Here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item276
you can find a .pdf with more details on the Trading skill use.
But you're right, the worst part will be finding somethinf that has enough money to buy it and that is interested in buying it.
I usually rule that magical guilds/associations will buy magical items at highly unprofitable prices (make any trading manuever at least "extremely hard").
Single private citizens (rich merchants, nobles, magicians, ...) will not usually buy magical items, but they could be interested in swapping interesting ones for some items they own but don't use. In the past this lead to funny roleplaying moments, as PCs were trying to give away an item which they weren't able to identify and the NPC they were trading with (a noble mage) was trying to swap it with one he wasn't able to identify. In the end everyone walked away happy with his new item... still without knowing what powers the item had!

[Ecthelion]

Thanks for the answers. The link to the Commerce & Trading document was exactly what I was looking for. With the guidelines in that document, would 100% of the resale price equal 750 gp or 1500 pg?

From what I read from your answers, Rasyr, I should not have told them an approximate value based on the value of the Amulet of Tongues from the Magic Item table but instead a lower value for a non-magical amulet. My fault. But what they know already, through the use of a Detect Magic spell scaled up for detecting dormant magic, is that the amulet is magical. OTOH with this knowledge, wouldn't they already be able to determine that the amulet is at least 1500 gp worth as this - at least when using only the core rule book - is the minimum price of a magical amulet? So perhaps my fault was not as bad as I thought.

What they also know is that a second item, a scimitar, is magical. It is simply a +10 magical weapon - what the don't know yet. But what is the proposed way for a character to then determine the bonus of such a scimitar and thus also its value?

[Uriel]

You also might want to look at the Commerce and Trading Guide which can be found here --> http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm

That's a great little page there... I had been looking through old boxes for my '...and a 10 foot pole' sup, but this replaces that book's tables in a nice and neat little package,

-Uriel

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If selling it to an individual then 100% would equal 1500 gp, if selling it to another merchant, then the merchant is very likely not to pay more than 50% to 60% of the 1500 gp.

However, don't forget the modifiers -- with a normal cost of over 1000 gp, that gives it a -100 on any trading rolls. With the -100, it would take a roll of 251+ to get 100% of the 1500 gps. On average, they are likely to not get more than 50% of the value.


As for the Scimitar -- have somebody take a swing at something (that has DB). After a few swings, they would tend to know how good it is.. (i.e. what the bonus is). This sort of testing can also be done in sparring sessions, as it is a constant bonus, so it needs no attunement.

[Ecthelion]

If selling it to an individual then 100% would equal 1500 gp, if selling it to another merchant, then the merchant is very likely not to pay more than 50% to 60% of the 1500 gp.

The HARP core book says that Trading gets modified by the Trading skill of the person to trade with i.e. the other person's skill bonus is subtracted from the roll. We might assume that a merchant is more skilled in Trading than an average individual and subtract more in that case - which would lead to results as you stated above.

However, don't forget the modifiers -- with a normal cost of over 1000 gp, that gives it a -100 on any trading rolls. With the -100, it would take a roll of 251+ to get 100% of the 1500 gps. On average, they are likely to not get more than 50% of the value.

...if at all 

As for the Scimitar -- have somebody take a swing at something (that has DB). After a few swings, they would tend to know how good it is.. (i.e. what the bonus is). This sort of testing can also be done in sparring sessions, as it is a constant bonus, so it needs no attunement.

OK, testing the weapon with a few swings is fine. But if allowing this, then I'd rather have a skill-check involved. So I think I am going to allow them to know the bonus if they make a Medium Scimitar skill check i.e. roll and add their Scimitar OB bonus to reach 101+. That way a character who is an expert in wielding a particular weapon is more able to evaluate this type of weapon than a less skilled character.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That sounds plausible (for the scimitar)

[Pat]

Can I get clarification as well in regards to magic items?

1) Do weapons and armour need to be advanced or masterwork quality to be enchanted?
2) If a sword is made out of Black Alloy, I'm guessing it's immediately +10. If it's masterwork as well I'm assuming it's now a +20 Black Alloy sword. If during the creation process it was also made magical (+10) is the finished weapon a +30 Masterwork enchanted sword of Black Alloy?

Thanks.... 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1) no, they do not need to be of a specific quality, though they often are, as most enchanters are not going to want to enchant a crummy looking item.

2) Theoretically, yes. Note that the cost modifiers would all be added together before determining actual cost (i.e. 20x + 5x = 25x)

However, I have always played it that you had to use the non-magical or the magical bonus, but not both at the same time. I had thought that we had put this limitation in, but I cannot seem to find it, hence the theoretical yes.   

[jasonbrisbane]

I like the idea of taking the higher value for the base situations..

Example: John the Barbarian has a +20 Masterwork  Black Alloy Battleaxe, that is enchanted with a +5 Magical bonus. Fighting the hoards of orcs, John gets the full +20 bonus. However when fighting the Orcs spirit adviser, which is a wraith, John only get to use the +5 Magic bonus, as the wraith requires a magical weapon to be able to hit it...


Thats how I would play it...

[Fidoric]

I agree with that. The non magical bonuses should not be used against creatures requiring a magical weapon to be hit. However, I can't see why non magical and magical bonuses should not stack in other cases. And enchanted black alloy weapon should be better than a mundane one IMO.

[jasonbrisbane]

The problem occurs with dual weapons (ie COmbat Style: Dual Strike - where two weapons strike the same locations to get the damage increased : bleederws +1,  double hits, etc): If the weilder has one wepaon +5Magic and one weapon +10 Magic, what bonus applies? Do you average the bonus? take the lowest? Highest?

Either way your missing out... or overpowering (albeit a little bit).

[Pat]

So, as far as I am aware, the maximum magical bonus is +25.

This makes the ultimate OB bonus non-magic weapon (not including magical metals or unusual organic materials) to be Masterwork White alloy weapons (+15 for the alloy, +10 for Masterwork) = +25 weapon.

And the ultimate OB bonus magic weapon (not including magical metals or unusual organic materials) as above with +25 for magic= +50 weapon.

And I'm assuming for non-metallic weapons the maximum OB bonus is +10 Masterwork, however, bows and cross bows could fire Masterwork arrows and bolts gaining a further +10 (+10 for Masterwork weapon and +10 for Masterwork arrows/bolts). Is this correct?

[Ancient of Days]

this brings up a good question ive been wonder about. calculating monetary value for magical items that dont have a listing for it in the books. unless i missed something somewhere i havent seen any way to do this short of rebuilding the item using the CoM rules for enchantments.. which, to say the least is tedious and very time consuming for something that should be a simple matter of looking for a entry in a book...

and let me clarify what i mean ... a thaumaturge creates an item say a +10 dagger ... how does one calculate the cost of the piece aside from base materials?

[Ecthelion]

What we do ATM is to check with Loot - A Field Guide (LaFG) whether one of its magic items tables contains a similar item. Additionally we have a house rule that determines that the cost multiplier for bonus items is x3 per bonus increment. See the house rules document on my homepage for more details.

So for the +10 dagger you mentioned above we'd look for a Dagger or similar weapon on the Bonus Items table on pg. 92 of LaFG. There is no price for a +5 dagger on that table, but a +5 short sword is listed with a cost of 221 gp, so that we'd use the same price also for a dagger. According to our house rule the price for a +10 version is three times that of the +5 version, so that the final price for the +10 magic dagger would be 221 x 3 = 663 gp.

[Ancient of Days]

that's fine for a house rule idea but i need official mathematical equations so i have a reasonable answer when my Nth level thaumaturgist makes a +10 dagger that can shadowport 2 x / day and slay orcs decides he wants to sell it and make a fair profit.

ive looked through CoM for even a basic concept of calc for value during item creation and im either blind or there is no info there about the arbitrary math involved in figuring magic items value/cost. so the official HARP referees need to be called out on this play for some kind of official ruling, info, or hint where to find this answer....

[Ecthelion]

AFAIK there does not (yet) exist an official ruling.

[Ancient of Days]

ok that's all i needed, although LOOT does have basic value info for talismans, fetishes, and potions that ive seen thus far in it.

[Ancient of Days]

heh i am blind..... CoM; page 116

THE COST OF MAGICAL ITEMS
The monetary cost of enchanting a temporary magical item is equal to half the enchanter’s PPs in gold pieces, plus the base cost of the item. The monetary cost of creating a permanent magical item can be split into two parts: the cost of the base item and the spell casting cost. The base item cost is simply the price listed for that item in the equipment lists of the HARP core rulebook or other supplements, rounded up to the nearest gold piece.
Even if the enchanter is fashioning the item himself, the full price should still be paid. It can be assumed that the enchanter is paying for slightly better materials, tools, smithing and workshop facilities.

The spell casting cost is given by the following formula:
Casting Cost = Total Imbue PPs x number of imprints to create x Complexity Multiplier.

The total Imbue PPs refers to how many PPs are needed by each batch of required Imbue spells. The number of imprints refers to the total number of castings required to create the item. The Complexity Multiplier represents the inherent danger of spell-casting to the
enchanter. If all Imbue spells are in their base form, the Multiplier is x1, if any have to be scaled, the multiplier increases to x5. Chapter Ten Magical Enchantment 10