Topic: Psionics

[Jachra]

Man, am I just full of questions lately or what? 
The system takes some getting used to and I've always felt it best to ask for advice before taking leaps.

So!  Psionics are interesting in their way... but versus other professions seem rather underpowered, especially when talents are thrown into the mix.
I mean, running a psyker and using any power 5 magnitudes higher than your level is, even with good Co and SD stats, a 1-in-3 chance of probably dying and also of gaining a penalty to your next burnout roll.  And if you intend to go over that, you're quickly running into penalties of -25, -50, -100, so on.  On the plus side, if you need to go more than 10 mags over your level, you might as well go all the way, since there's not much difference between -100 and -200.

Looking at the Psychic Bolt table, I have to wonder... what would possess a psychic to use these?  First, they need to make TWO rolls with a chance of fumbling, and a LE 5 weapon blows them right out of the water.  Using said laser does not cost you any Refractory period, probably can be used a lot more since there's no mind points, can probably be used for raking attacks, may double-tap or be fired on multiple targets... Worst of all, you need to be level 17 to use the maximum results of the psychic bolt table without potentially killing yourself, and then you're putting yourself out of action for several rounds; that bolt can't be used again until the refractory period is up.
One has to wonder why a psychic wouldn't just train himself to use a good laser pistol and use things that force RR rolls instead when you run into someone with too much DB or armor to handle.
(One potential solution to this would be to make psychic bolt attacks equal to an equivalent weapon of half the magnitude in Energy.  That makes them much more respectable, even if they can't fire again until the Refractory period is over.  Seriously, if you're spending 20+ mind points, you'd better be getting some sort of bang for your buck, and the psychic bolt table is utterly pathetic.)

Really, aside from the more esoteric powers that can certainly come in handy, I don't see the incentive for being a Psychic.  The profession's prohibitive costs in other sections make it hard to branch out, too.

That said, are there any recommendations on how to make psychics more useful without making them overpowered?  Ability to use powers in the refractory period.  Less dangerous heart-failure and burn-out charts.  Less significant penalties during the refractory period in general.  If the problem is a psyker using a power over his level, stiffen the penalties for actually casting the effect.  So on.

[Defendi]

I've always been worried that they were a little too overpowered.    I do allow them to cast during refractory, if they're willing to take the penalty, BTW.

[Jachra]

I've always been worried that they were a little too overpowered.    I do allow them to cast during refractory, if they're willing to take the penalty, BTW.

Really?  How do you figure?  This is only from a quick look, so I haven't seen the potential areas for abuse.  Where do Psychics generally kick tail?

Also, when you let them cast during the Refractory, do you add their new Refractory period to the remaining one, and if the total is over -100, do you hit them up with the Charts of Death?  Or do you just take the highest Refractory period between the two?

[Defendi]

Telepathy stuff, like paralysis.  If you can get them to fail their RRs, you can shut down bad guys that are taking large crits and shrugging off the big guns (like an armored bear).  It's not unusual for the real monster bad guys to have relatively low RRs.

[markc]

 In my game I had a semi-psi and a psy-doctor. From my experience in RMSS in which I start spell casters at 5th and pure arms at 3rd, I strated my pure psy PC's at 5th level. [actualy he started at 6th becuase he needed the level to finish all the doctor TP's he needed, so he gave up his nect level.] The psi-doc was a great PC but he did not have any of the attack psi powers and the semi-psi was a pilot that used his psi to get a better interfact with vehicles. [I had a setting rule that you needed psi to achieve a bonus of over +15]. So sorry not a lot of help from my games.

 But IMO starting the pure psi at a higher level is the way to go, especially if you use the talents from the book as I think they need a little extra edge. Also as you said not much beets a gun in the hand so I would expect them to learn a weapon and only use the psi-attacks when they do not use there hand weapon. [But IMO pure-psi at high levels are going to be very dangerous as they can attack before others can get there weapons out or maybe even get two psi attacks off before others know whats happening.] You are right at lower levels psi's are trougher to play than other low level professions. Also IMO the flashy abiliities are secondary to the abilities that Defindi talked about above but that is not to say that they do not have there place in the psi order of things. Who else can create there own energy beam to cut themselves out of chains or a solid jail cell?

MDC

[Jachra]

(like an armored bear).

Flashbacks to Golden Compass!

Yeah, I figured that Paralysis be a place for concern; it's like in D&D.  However... considering how many mind points you're probably spending and the potential risk of death, isn't that still crazy?  You could always pick up an electrolaser stunner.

Starting off at a higher level is always an idea.

[croakerdogboy]

The problem I see is one that can be addressed in two parts I think.

The idea of starting players at higher levels I just don't get. I mean can't you just tailor the encounters to what lower level players should be able to handle?

And I think that people are too focused on Psi for combat. I find that to be the same problem that people have with magic users. I mean really, a blaster on auto is pretty much beyond anything a PSI can do combat wise, but the trick is there are so many more subtle uses for their power. They can do things that are beyond any other type of character and can further the adventure in a million ways. So why do they have to be combat gods as well.

Kinda like magic users. I have played a lot of games with far more subtle forms of magic then the big flashy fireballs we all know and love. But it seems like unless a player can have his wizard throw out some kind of Firebomb they feel somehow incomplete.

[markc]

croakerdogboy,
 I just answered this Q in the RM section after reading your post. But the big highlight for SM:P is that training packages in SM:P define what your PC has done before they entered the game. Also a 55 skill bonus is IMO what a PC needs in skills to be considered able to hold a basic job in what ever area. That is because 55+ 06[lowest roll]+ easy maneuver +50=111 success. Below 55 in a skill IMO means the PC is in training. Also I do not use the talents as writen in SM:P or RMSS or RMSS TL, mine are much more expensicve in talent points and have lower bonuses. So my PC's do not have insain skill bonus's. Also in my game average people are between 3rd and 8th level, yes that is average. So if the PC's start at 1st they are well behind the curve or are in fact in training. This type of campaign can be fun but in general I bypass this step because all PC do not have the same training backgrounds.

 Hope that helps, in not send me a PM or post questions.
MDC

[jasonbrisbane]

Markc: I REALLY like that idea!

If I start a New Campaign (albeit in HARP), I'm going to use that - Level 1 = Beginner; level 3-8 = Average; Level 9+ = above average population and adventurers!

You get an idea point for that one!

[markc]

jasonbrisbane,
 Does it not make sense though? Everyday people have skills to the are not just cats, mice or dogs in the game they are thinking, learning working people. It is not a new idea in any way but it can have a large impact on anyones game. Now having average people have skills and levels still does allow the odd adventurer innkeeper or a 20th level shop keeper, etc. But most of the populace are going to have skills in the areas that help them in day to day life.
 The next question is what makes an adventurer different from a every day joe. Well that is easy it is the adventurer experiencing new and different things, solving new problelms with old skills or learning new skills to solve old problems. In RM the experience system reflects that as you get less Exp for doing the same task over and over again. IMO this is also why nobles in the middle ages out stripped average people, they use their skills to solve many different problems.

MDC 

Edit: I think that idea has made in into the RMC line of books somewhere but I do not know where but I think I remember seeing it.
MDC

[croakerdogboy]

I handle what makes the PC's being special as taking the minimum attribute of 90 for a profession as only pertaining to PC's. Everybody else gets an average of 50. So the average fighter they are going to face will have 50 in his stats rather then the big bonus. That's not to say there won't be variation, it's just that they are not going to be constantly fighting people with 90+ stat bonuses.

By doing it this way it works to a first level character with good bonuses being able to take an average second level character most of the time.

But realistically, I do like systems like Aftermath that don't have a profession or a level. That kind of leaves it open for a player to do whatever they want.

[Oldgrue]

I think Psi needs to be weaker than technology.
Sure, that psy bolt may not have LE5, but it has a couple of things the laser doesn't:

The Psi bolt is tough to take away.  Strip search? Robbery?
The Psi effects are powerful subtly.
The Psi in question could just get a laser.

Sure, the other party members can get blasters too, but how many of them can lay out the charm-stye effects from a fantasy game?  Maybe coordinate  orders between party members without a radio?

Weakness at lower levels is more than reasonable.

[markc]

Croakerdogboy,
 I have done almost the same in that I drop the min requirement to 65 for a profession and even in some cases puting a limit of 85 fpr PC's max on stats and a low score of 35 for stats. I do use a slightly modified verson of stat point generation which is in the vault under house rules.

 But all in all IMO it works very well, well at least for my game style.

MDC

[Jachra]

You should never pay 21 mind points for a substandard laser, ever.  (We went with the 'every 2 magnitudes is an Energy level' idea.  Even powerful psions are going to run out in a few shots at that rate, but when they fire it's going to be deadly.)

My primary issue is that it makes it pointless to get over 5 or so in magnitudes, your death is pretty much assured, or at the least your eventual burnout.  Why stack up on Category ranks or pick up Psychic training packages? (Though, there's only 2 of them that aren't Xatosian, so that's not so much an issue.)
They're also the only truly level-dependent profession.  A technician can start up a Killer Death Mech at level 1.. indeed, aside from maybe a couple things, there's little a well-equipped tech can't do that a psychic can.

Mind you, I've gotten some great noncombat applications... no better translator than a mind reader.

[markc]

Jachra,
 I have done some thinking on the points you made above and I have the following thoughts.

 1) Introduce Psi objects like mental power point stores, free psi cast stones [like adders from RM], psi devices that aid in the casting of a single Psi power, a more powerful one will cast a number of Psi's or some type of Psi power amplifier.
 2) Increase the amount of MP gained for each race.
 3) Introduce a talent that allows to cast over your level by 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 levels for a single power. Or multiple powers or all powers in a category. [IMO this is very powerful]
 4) Change the rules for using some Psi powers so they are more powerful sooner. An example might be that the laser bolt skill alloows for x3 intensity but maxes out at LE 6, etc.
The above are big changes IMO and should be checked with your GM to see what effect it will have in the game. Also IMO the GM should say we are going to change this rule for a few games to see how it is. If it does not work out then we will change it back.
 
Hope that helps.
MDC

[Jachra]

I like that, I should have a look at RMFP to get a look at magic.

Since the game already started, we're looking into 'discovering' that stuff.  The game is about exploring beyond known space, so that's perfectly possible.

[markc]

I like that, I should have a look at RMFP to get a look at magic.

Since the game already started, we're looking into 'discovering' that stuff.  The game is about exploring beyond known space, so that's perfectly possible.

 I really like the RMSS system better than the RMFRP as IMO you get a whole lot more for your $. You can get away with just RMSS book as well as RMSS Spell Law. Instead of RMFRP, Character Law, Of Essence, Of Channeling and Of Mentalsim. Equle's 5 books vs 2 books and I think that RMSS books are still available from ICE as well as other places on line. I like PDF's as I can print the pages I want but I also have at least 2 copies of many of the books.
MDC   

[Jachra]

You must be either spectacularly rich or else spectacularly poor thanks to ICE.

Also!
An item to maintain a power for you.  Good, bad?  In the vein of the sustaining focus from Shadowrun, or the spell to maintain spells for you in Ars Magica.
Maybe specific to the power and/or a magnitude limit...

[markc]

 Acyually I had a great job then teaching MCSE clases, it did not pay to badly.

 Are you asking about an item to systain spells or maintain them? I have not played SR or AM in a very long time, I do have the books. I think I have SR 1,2,4 and AR 2 or 3, but I have not read them in a very long time so you are going to have to help me out a little more. What do that do?

 If you are asking for an item to cast Psi or spells then it would be some type of magic or psionic item that had intelegence, a bound spitit, ghost, deamon, elemental in it. There is a magic staff spell list in RMSS Essence Comp that you can store spells in "slots" in the item and then cast them at instant speeds. As a house rule I let players change the item to be any weapon instead of just a staff but I also increase the penalties if they do not have it or the time to recover if they change the base item.
 Now for Psi you could do the same thing just use the Magic Staff list as a template but you would have to use a power in the Psi "special" category [I do not remember the name right now and I just put my books away after a shelf gave way, so you are going to have to supply the category]. I would require a specific number of ranks to achieve varous "level's" of abilities.
 Another optioin is to let Psi maintain two Psi powers at onece. You could make an item for that or just reduce the penalties by a new talent, Psi power, item or other means. Maybe even an item like the lensmen, which if I remember correctly is a Psi intelegence item that bonds to a person in the form of a crystal on their hand.

 But IMO reducing some of the number may unbalance the game and should be paytested a bit to see just how they are. If they are too powerful then reduce them in power an try again.

MDC

[Jachra]

Maintain.  Maintaining a power costs 1/10th the MP (usually) and a 10% action every round.

(I should seriously start a single thread for all my questions.)