Topic: Combat Flavor (Hits vs Crits)

[yammahoper]

I beleive , Yamma, you are now talking about those gamers that a lot of us would not include in a session anyway.
 

But from the business end of the game, that is the point.  Investors care little for the purity of a game, but the marketing value of it.

lynn

[croakerdogboy]

I tend to think most of the people haunting this forum tend to be gamemasters. I have only gotten to be a player once, and was not really satisfied with the GM. I think as a general rule GM's tend to be big into detail and depth. Depth generally means complexity, if not in the core rules then in the house rules.

I envisioned for my campaign a hit location table of the 30 locations front and back. Then there would be specific ABCDE, puncture, krush etc crits specific to the location. Doing the math comes up with many pages, but it would still only be looking results up on two tables.

[Marc R]

30 locations?

[Arioch]

30 locations?

That's exactly what I said when I've read croakerdogboy post! 

Seriously, isn't that a little too much detail?

[croakerdogboy]

30 locations is a lot yes, but I think that would create pretty amazing combat results. I love characterization, and I have found that one of the quickest ways for someone to really warm up to their character is to hack on them a little bit.

In the Aftermath campaign I was running, one of the guys made a very stupid mistake, got captured, and he lost both of his ears to some post apocalyptic cannibals. The woman added them to her trophy necklace. She survived the bloody rescue attempt, and then showed up several months later as patron of a tavern the PC's went to. Entertainment ensued.

The point is that he was really attached to his earless guy after that, and it added to and fleshed out his personality. The current RMSS crit tables are great, but barring magic or modern medical help, they are also very destructive to the character. I tried once to find a single table that would allow the character to lose an eye, but survive the fight. I couldn't find it. So much for any potential pirates.

I tend to run low magic campaigns as a matter of choice. I like magic, but I have always felt in high magic campaigns after fifth level you are either a spell user or a supporting cast member. A lot of complexity is spent on magic in Rolemaster. If you subtract that, then 30 hit locations and crits adds more to the natural combat for me.

But then I am a computer programmer. So I could spend a week and write the software to allow me to either hit a button or input the rolls and get the result pretty quick.

[Dax]

My current PC, a mage has lost an eye.

And in a RQ game "I" lost an arm along with another PC.
The GM wanted the other player to go on with his character, because he had an impact in his story line. But the player wanted a new character. I played my one-arm character once or twice (main problem was my character had only POW 3 after devine intervention), but the GM didn't take much attention.
It is the same with my one-eyed mage, it didn't have any impact - yet.

[Balhirath]

I beleive , Yamma, you are now talking about those gamers that a lot of us would not include in a session anyway.
 

Oh but those players can be educated
I have taught a lot of people RM over the years and most of them have been surprised over how simple the system really is, compared to how it looks like when you look at the attack tables and skill lists.

[Pit Ote]

I don't want condensed combat system, pleeease, noooo , I like the original system. I think original idea is good (and simple, I think), i.e. attack table + crit table (+ some improvisation according to circumstances interpreting the crits). Oddly some of those new condensed systems seems to me more complex.

I want lots of attack and crits tables, it's one of the things that I love in RM.

[Marc R]

I'm serious, what are the 30 locations?

[croakerdogboy]

Locations are

1 - Top of Head
2 - Face
3 - Neck
4 - Left Shoulder
5 - Right Shoulder
6 - Left Pect
7 - Right Pect
8 - Left Lower Rib Cage
9 - Right Lower Rib Cage
10 - Left Lower Abdomen
11 - Right Lower Abdomen
12 - Groin
13 - Left Hip
14 - Right Hip
15 - Left Thigh
16 - Right Thigh
17 - Left Knee
18 - Right Knee
19 - Left Shin
20 - Right Shin
21 - Left Foot
22 - Right Foot
23 - Left Bicep
24 - Right Bicep
25 - Left Elbow
26 - Right Elbow
27 - Left Forearm
28 - Right Forearm
29 - Left Hand
30 - Right Hand

[Marc R]

I've been thinking a lot lately about hit location, so I find this an interesting list. I think a standardized set of locations is very useful.

I think you could easily cull 13 of those, the R/L distinctions, if anything a complication. You'd need to fiddle a location determination based on facing. . .a left flank attack will usually, but not always hit left locations, rather than right.

Similarly the Pec/Ribs/Abdomen distinction might be best described as "Upper Torso", "Mid Torso" and "Lower Torso" so that the location list is also equally aplicable front/back.

I think trusting the GM to deal a bit with the probabilities/flavor of which side or facing is hit would be preferable to needing 8 hit location tables based on angle of attack (including "From Above" and "From Below" as well as the 6 standard hex facings.)

I don't have the CC handy. . .anyone have it handy, in terms of what the Armor By the Piece locations were?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

AbtP Locations are

Head
Neck
Shoulders
Arms
Hands
Torso
Abdomen
Groin
Legs
Feet

[Marc R]

That's almost exactly the simplified list I end up with too. . .and the variations are not really signifigant.

Only problems I can think of involve things like:
a Breastplate (Front no Back),
Those fencing armors that cover one shoulder/side/arm/hand and leave the other exposed, used in side on fighting styles.
Or
an Open faced helmet, where a center shot from the back or sides is helmet, but from in front is face.

Though the GM's call can be used there, it might create problems.

[croakerdogboy]

That's why I was going with the extra locations. To cover armor variations that may be a little off on one side or the other.

That and to cover the extra crit possibilities for internal and external damage. i.e. Kidney shot, off hand or weapon hand damage. Off foot for martial arts etc.

If you use stance based upon weapon used I think that will clear up the hit location tables considerably. It would require a little more research into the most commonly used stances for each weapon type, but I don't have a problem with that.

[Dax]

Funny thing:
I was thinking of a location system but only with 4 location (without R/L distinction) !
Only 4 ? Yes:

                 Head Area
Upper Left                    Upper right
Lower left                    lower right
               Abdomen, Legs


The exact hit area and effect is determeined by the Crit roll,
because they should have the lethal chances.

Arm Crits are possible in Head, Upper and Lower areas.

[markc]

 Is'ent that 5 areas

head
upper
lower
abd
legs

or 3 areas
head
abd
legs

MDC

[Arioch]

I think that the exact location is not really important in game terms. What's important is only the effect of the blow and if the hitten area is protected by armor or not, the rest is just flavor.
Why does a player (or the GM) want to try to hit a specific location instead of attacking normally?
Because he wants to hit a non-protected area or obtain a special effect.
So what we need it's only a mechanic to handle blows to non-protected areas. Special effects can IMHO be handled by existing mechanics, like using a special critical tables (subdual) or manuevers (disarm, feint,...).

[croakerdogboy]

I understand where you are coming from with the location armored or unarmored being necessary. But I long for more detail in my flavor charts. That is why I am taking the approach I do. I realize there is a happy medium and I am more on one end then the other, but I even like to track armor damage. For a while I have been working on techniques for shield material strength and passive damage done to shields rather then the broad "Shield Destroyed" crit. So if I am concerned about a shield being hacked up and it's affect on combat, I most certainly am going to be concerned about someone getting a hacked off thumb. I realize the descriptions are called flavor text, but since most of the real world visual and long term damage come from the flavor text it seems pretty important.

[Dax]

Is'ent that 5 areas

No abdomen and leg is one area. So I have "Head and Arms", "Chest and Arms", "Hip and Hands/Arms", "Abdomen and (upper) Legs". (With overlapping - see below)

Now I repeat something from my third post:

In RM the GM has often to interpret and change the critical result to fit the combat sequel, so a less detailed system is better -
it allowes interpretation and the flexibility for a dynamic moving enemy.

I build this resolution long time ago, but I had never the players to test it:


The location 4 is part of 2, 3 and 5. *

This results in an approximation of the strike location, combine it with the crit-result (stun to death) and give the players an interpretation: "slashes your rigth side", bleeding, stuns etc. "neck breck" "stab your stomach"
I believe strikes to feets are not so common, therefore 5 expand to 5a seldom, "on demand", against riders or for dwarvish attackers.

if the attackers go for upper hits you can also interpret a 10 to be located at the head (and vice versa). This kind of change may also be, if you are horsed or fighting a hobbit, or hobbit a standing man etc.

As you can see, the arms are displayed twice to take the arm protection for the head into account.
So if the combatant archives a headstrike but a weak result on the critical table: The arm (shield) blocked the swing; but the arm (shield) may still hit the head because of the momentum.
In every location are strike points which may have deadly results (high crit-rolls).
With other than puncture or slash crits, there may be a problem with "instant dead"-result in the lower locations.
But the GM can adjust it (either longterm dying with the possibility to heal the injured or relocate the hit to the upper locations)

Some other examples:
Interpret the 5-location with a high crit-roll as a very private hit, with long time knock-down but without high damage (although that guy wants to die instantly)
Or imagine a arrow strike to your arm which pins your hand to your body.
___

* I recognize that it might be better to make the "10" on the d10 the head hit.

[markc]

 I am also constantly encouter that the crits are written for humaniod combatants and as a GM again I have to adjust them to the opponet. A good hit location system has to be general enough and the monster description of combat good enough to provide easy GM knowlege of hw it attacks and what areas are vunrable to attacks from what direction and type of attack.

MDC